Ecotrons Install Thread

[n4mwd]

Just curious, but if you disconnect the O2 sensors in ECO mode, are you running the RICH map or a different map? I was wondering because if you ran without O2 sensors, it would be nice to have TWO rich maps that you could switch on the fly for like when you live in the valley and take a ride up into the mountains.

I still have the hunting problem. I will try flipping to RICH mode and see if its still there.

I finally got a chance to check my MPG. It was 51 mpg in ECO mode. I am not impressed. It was definitely a far cry from the 80 mpg I was hoping for.

[choneofakind]

When I take out the O2 sensors, I've only run it with the switch on RICH mode. I got 73 mpg with just cruising on the ECO mode. I'll let you know my mileage when I fill up next. That tank will be 99% ECO mode as well, but it's a better mix of fun back roads, and high speed highway and high speed country 2-lane. I'm expecting that one to be in the 68 neighborhood.

Once I get a tank on only RICH mode, I'm expecting 60-65 mpg.

You really shouldn't be running WOT for that long with the engine running at 14.7 AFR. That makes some hot exhaust temps, and will damage the valves. If you're going to ride like the hooligan I know you do, then you need to start using a lower AFR.


IDK how you managed 51 mpg in ECO. I was ripping up to redline for learning purposes and ripping through backroad turns with Nautica at 9k+ and I still managed better than that!!! That's the mileage I was getting on RICH with a pod filter last summer!

[n4mwd]

The bike has been sitting a lot so maybe some of the fuel just evaporated??? Its not my main bike, so I don't ride it that much. I took it out today and it ran fine. If anything, the exhaust smells lean, not rich.

My main bike, the 2006, has about 27K on it. When it gets to 50K I'm going to rebuild the engine and put EFI on it at that time as well. The purpose of the 2007 EFI bike is so that I will have something to ride around on while the main bike is being worked on.

[choneofakind]

Of course it smells lean, you've used it in ECO mode I can't stand ECO mode. It's so surgey and hot. No bueno.

but really, don't run it hard all the time at 14.7. You want it down in the mid-13's for medium loads and in the high 12's or low 13's for heavy load.

[EMSRacer07]

This week I got 77mpg. Just the way u ride it. Or could be gas evaporated. I know mine does from time to time.

[choneofakind]

Dude, D rides like a noob. I still haven't gotten a chance to get gas and check my mileage yet.

[n4mwd]

Do you guys ever go over 30 mph?

With the carbed bike, I got 80 mpg on a trip once averaging about 60 mph carrying a tent and camping gear.

The gas in the EFI bike probably just evaporated.

That being said, I'll probably get sick if a car ever out-accelerates me from a stop light. So city riding MPG tends to be lower.

[lgk]

i never got under 65mpg, in combined mileage.

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Do you guys ever go over 30 mph?

With the carbed bike, I got 80 mpg on a trip once averaging about 60 mph carrying a tent and camping gear.

The gas in the EFI bike probably just evaporated.

That being said, I'll probably get sick if a car ever out-accelerates me from a stop light. So city riding MPG tends to be lower.

my 77 mpg was going 80-90mph on highway roads with saddle bags and a good sized duffle bag on the seat. and with my sitting up. If i was tucked might have gotten more.

[choneofakind]

If you're riding on ECO and getting mileage in the low 50's, there's either something wrong with your setup, or you need to slow down to appropriate street speeds.

I've only gotten 73 mpg twice. That tank was one of them. The other tank was the first week of riding when I was putting around at 30 in 6th.

I'll assume the slow comment was just teasing and ignore it.

[choneofakind]

Well, a couple of things.

1) removing the O2 sensors seems to have reduced my power consumption enough that the bike now starts reliably again.

2) I found a rich map I like best yet (again, the new file in my mods blog) So I think I'm officially done modding maps in ProCal. Anyone who wants my setup can use the excel files I have loaded here. Cruising AFR is 14.4, moderate throttle is 14.0-14.4, heavier throttle is 13.2-14.0, and WOT is 12.9. Bike runs really well. Quick throttle response in roll-on's, never sounds lean, exhaust temp/smell is corrrect. Responds well all the way from 2k-14k. I'm done messing with it. I highly recommend giving this map a try. This is the first time I can say that the EFI actually outperforms my well tuned carbs in terms of smoothness, response, and mid-range grunt. Very pleased.

3) last tank of gas, all on ECO mode, got 70 mpg, that was higher speed cruising and some twisty back road fun. Now that I'm on RICH mode all the time with my newer leaned map, I'm expecting 65 or so. It might be leaned such that I still see 70 when commuting? idk. I'll keep everyone updated.

4) I also got a video of a cold (about 50 degrees out) start. I'll get that loaded as soon as I can. I'll also try to work on some more videos to demonstrate the capabilities of the ecotrons setup for highway use, 40-80 roll-ons, etc etc. I'm very happy with this system since I've spent some time to learn how it works, how to tune it, etc.

EDIT:
here's the video I took of my first start of the day. Temp is about 50. Start was a good one.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[n4mwd]

I'm strongly suspecting that the injectors on my setup may be leaking. Not fast, but the oil seems to have a faint gas smell. If it does this while sitting, then that would explain my low mpg. But it still runs perfectly.

[choneofakind]

That would explain it. I was actually pondering that today because I was thinking about my mileage compared to yours (this was right after I filled up). I just couldn't think of how the gas would get leaked from yours. Maybe it is the injectors?? I know the the carbs, the suspects are always the petcock and float valves.

but really, give my rich map a try. Humor me

[n4mwd]

I'll let you test it some more first. You're in a lot colder area than down here. You are still in the 50's and we are in the 90's. Lets see what it does in the 80's at least.

I think its an injector leaking or possibly the ECU is firing them when the engine is off. That's the only way gas can get into the crankcase. The oil light takes a long time to go out which indicates that the oil may be thinner.

[choneofakind]

I'll keep an eye on my oil light. It seems to take the same amount of time as always to go off. For some reason, the last few days have been cold. The starting the middle of this week, we're supposed to be back into the 80's. I'll let you know what the mileage looks like on this tank. Not sure how much riding I'll be doing during the middle of the week, but I'll do my best.

[n4mwd]

The oil light in your video looked fine. It works like my 2006 ninja. It should go out within two seconds after the bike starts. My 2007 with the EFI takes as much as 10-15 seconds to go out.

The oil pump requires a certain viscosity in order to work right. I'm thinking that its running thin because of the gas in it. I'm going to take it out today so I'll remove the oil cap for a minute when I get to where I'm going to see if the gas will evaporate out.

Matt gave me a special rich start map when I first installed the kit and was having problems starting the bike (which later turned out to be a low battery). This may be having an unforseen effect causing the injectors to squirt when the bike isn't running. I am thinking that I might try your map (when I have time to work on it) to see if it makes a difference.

Since your bike was just sitting over the whole winter, if just sitting was the problem, then you should have had a similar problem, but didn't.

But regarding maps... If I use your rich map, what happens to my eco map? Are there two independent maps, or are they linked together somehow?

[choneofakind]

My guess is that all Matt did was adjust the Starting enrichment table. That has nothing to do with the injectors squirting when it's off.

As for the ECO vs RICH maps, they're linked, but independent. The bike learns '1' (14.7 AFR) in ECO mode. Then when you use the switch to switch over to RICH mode, the bike applies that relationship between air and fuel to figure out how much fuel to squirt to give a desired AFR, given by the RICH map table. Using RICH mode will not alter the performance in ECO mode.

I hate ECO mode because I can feel (surging) that the bike is exactly on that boundary of running lean, not to mention the top does not pull like it should. On top of that, the stupid O2 sensors use way more power than they're worth.


And yeah, my bike is fine, even after sitting all winter with stabilized gas. No leaky parts anywhere, no problem with the oil pressure. I can't think of any explanation for your poor mileage other than riding style. According to my last tank, that only makes about 3 mpg difference.

[choneofakind]

Today was high 80's. Bike felt fantastic!! First time this season the temp gauge has gotten to the 11:30 position. Engine felt as good as ever, fueling felt just as good as when it was cold.

During start and warm-up, it feels good. Still gets a little oscillation as the engine temp is rising. Right when started, idle is steady, once hot, the idle is steady. While almost warmed up, I get a little oscillation. But no dying!! And it still feels as smooth and responsive as ever. Top end still feels great, exhaust still smells right, exhaust can still feels the right temp. Still happy

I'm 180 miles into this tank, all in RICH mode. I'll let you know on mileage once I fill up.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Thought about it, but 1) I don't have a smart phone 2) I don't want to spend more money on the bike, more looking into leathers and a new bicycle 3) when I get a smart phone, I'm going with the iPhone 5 because I already know how to use iOS from my iPod Touch.

Cmon dude get the HTC One!

Or at least wait till the next iphone comes out! Its dropping Oct 14th!

[choneofakind]

yeah, not gonna wait until the new iPhone just to pay more...

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

yeah, not gonna wait until the new iPhone just to pay more...

Same price homie. Iphone 5 will drop to $99 5s will be $199

[choneofakind]

Gas mileage update on RICH mode with my final map.

Mixed riding: 64.4 mpg
Fun back roads in southern OH: 59.5 mpg

Still doing great. Happy with performance in all temps. Removing the oxygen sensors got rid of all my battery charging issues. No problems with start-ups since I pulled them. Still impressed with how smooth it is.

[lolibater]

That's some great mileage! I'm getting 45 - 50 on the 650 :P

[Red250R]

question on the install. just started to rain so i came inside to call the gf for dinner but shes not answering lol Figured i'd hit up here to see if i can get some answers to some questions.

Btw, i have an 08 ninja

1.) Where did you guys run your fuel lines out of the tank? It seems as tho there's absolutely no room. I've put the tank on with a couple 5 inch pieces of fuel line on it and the disconnects but its a very tight area to have to fit a fuel filter in there too. Not to mention keep it running downhill. The only thing i can think of is to shorten the fuel lines on there even more and really squeeze it all in there. But i don't know because the area seemed that small.

and 2.) The hoses that you pull off during removal of the tank, it comes from a piece that also has a tube that goes to the airbox, but then it T's to the carb and the other hose went to the stock petcock. Obviously the two hoses are not used because the one went to the carbs and the other went to the stock petcock. Does the one still go to the other side of the throttle body, kinda like how the MAP sensor connects. Or do i remove the T completely and just dead end that hose?

and i guess 3.) What did you guys do with your choke cable? I know its no longer needed so i just taped it up and tie wrapped it so it wouldn't move around.

I think that's it off the top of my head. Those first two were the only major ones i've encountered that were question worthy. That third one was just a curiosity question lol plus the rain stopped but its still looking a little dark. haven't decided whether to go back out or not. Not that i can do much without those answers. Any help is appreciated. Thanks guys.

[lgk]

1. i have a pod filter so i got more room to work with, but it should all fit inside the air box, or the space under the throttle.

2. if you mean the kleen air system, i ended up removing/blocking it so the o2 sensor doesn't give false readings.

3. i ended up leaving the cable and switch until i construct a rich/eco toggle switch with my 3d printer.

[Red250R]

1.) I've been debating on switching out to a pod filter. Someone told me, can't remember who, that using the pod filters make you air intake vary so it screw with the system a little. can't remember exactly who or what they said.

2.) After you mentioned it being the kleen air system i looked it up in my service manual. Yes. Definitely the kleen air system. After a little more research on here, now i figured out that the whole thing can be removed and i'm going to do just that. I already bought a block off plate but i couldn't figure out where it went for the life of me. The only spot i found was on top of the cylinder head but the hose went somewhere. Damn now i got it lol snaps all in place now.

3.) I was thinking of removing the choke cable completely and extending both the switch and LED to put it up near the handlebars/gauges. I'm kinda waiting on my Koso gauges to come in for that tho. Right now i'm just tie wrapping the rich/eco switch and LED somewhere i can see/use them easily after i put the plastics on.

[choneofakind]

Might have been me speaking down on the pod filter. I'm not fond of them after going back to the air box.


Remember that the pump has to be the lowest component. Since the fuel filter acts the same as the fuel line, that means that the filter can be lower than the pump. As long as the distance up to the pump from the filter is less than the distance down from the tank to the pump, you're good. That's what i have and it works without issue.

To make it work, I got some U-bends and made my filter go across the bike, u-bend back, and then go into the pump. I also used a U-bend for the return line. Looks kinda funky, but works.

[lgk]

1. the EFI system seems to like a strong vacuum pulse. in a couple of trials, i built a duct tape cover over my filter to lengthen my intake tract. and it seem to run smoother.

2. yep, the plate just goes over the valve cover. then normally the hose gets blocked off but in your case you'll be fine with just the map sensor.

3. i got several ideas on how to utilize the choke, but it'll take some time to test them. got too little free time

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Red250R

question on the install. just started to rain so i came inside to call the gf for dinner but shes not answering lol Figured i'd hit up here to see if i can get some answers to some questions.

Btw, i have an 08 ninja

1.) Where did you guys run your fuel lines out of the tank? It seems as tho there's absolutely no room. I've put the tank on with a couple 5 inch pieces of fuel line on it and the disconnects but its a very tight area to have to fit a fuel filter in there too. Not to mention keep it running downhill. The only thing i can think of is to shorten the fuel lines on there even more and really squeeze it all in there. But i don't know because the area seemed that small.

and 2.) The hoses that you pull off during removal of the tank, it comes from a piece that also has a tube that goes to the airbox, but then it T's to the carb and the other hose went to the stock petcock. Obviously the two hoses are not used because the one went to the carbs and the other went to the stock petcock. Does the one still go to the other side of the throttle body, kinda like how the MAP sensor connects. Or do i remove the T completely and just dead end that hose?

and i guess 3.) What did you guys do with your choke cable? I know its no longer needed so i just taped it up and tie wrapped it so it wouldn't move around.

I think that's it off the top of my head. Those first two were the only major ones i've encountered that were question worthy. That third one was just a curiosity question lol plus the rain stopped but its still looking a little dark. haven't decided whether to go back out or not. Not that i can do much without those answers. Any help is appreciated. Thanks guys.

The rain is really bad down here too.

#1 - My hoses did have to be rather short and I had to be careful where I put the disconnects. But most of us don't have the bubblerless fuel pump like you do so I'm just guessing. You need to experiment as to the best place. Maybe fuel tap -> very short hose -> disconnect ->very short hose -> filter ->longer hose -> fuel pump inlet ??? But like I said, I'm just guessing without the same fuel pump.

On my fuel return line, I had to put the disconnect behind the throttle body to make everything fit right. In your case, you don't have to worry about the fuel return being higher and always rising because you don't have a bubbler and the fuel return is under pressure.

That is not true of the inlet fuel line which does need to be carefully routed.

#2 - I have a pregen so I don't think I have the same thing. Is there any chance you have a CA bike?

#3 - My choke cable is still just sitting there and is zip tied to the frame. I was thinking about making it do something later, but right now it just sits there.

[choneofakind]

Jason, will you be using the choke for start-up purposes? Or will you be using it for other things?

[Red250R]

@n4mwd

1.) Yeah i'm gunna have to play around with it a little bit once the rain stops completely.

2.) Definitely not a CA bike. I figured out it was the kleen air system. Just went outside and pulled it off in minutes. Put the emissions block off plate on the cylinder head. Now i just gotta figure out how to plug the hole coming out of the airbox. I'll think of something.

3.) As for the choke cable, I wonder if theres a way that we can rig it up so that'll be the switch for rich/eco mode. Come on guys, think of something lol

[choneofakind]

1) idk if you can switch between rich and eco without shutting the bike off. Never tried. Plus, I'm rich mode only (oxygen sensors are gone since I'm done with learning) so I just got rid of the choke cable. Eco mode sucks anyways.

If you really want to switch between rich and eco mode, just get a handlebar-mounted switch and extend the wires.

[Red250R]

i'm sure i'll get the programming down eventually too so i can run in rich mode all the time too. i probably won't get rid of eco mode tho cuz i never know what i'll end up switching out or playing around with in the future.
@choneofkind how far did you go to remove the choke cable? did you just chop it off up at the handlebars with a pair of sidecutters or did you open and remove it from the plastic assembly on the handlebars entirely?

[Red250R]

Little side note, i like how i got everyone to number their answers the past several posts lol even your last post Chris didn't require numbering yet you did anyways

[choneofakind]

I opened the left hand control. The cable and lever just fall out. Took 30 seconds total. Yeah, I was going to say something else, but I forgot what it was, so no number 2

[setasai]

You brought up the pod filters again and I was wondering... does the intake require the surface area of the single large pod filter? I'm thinking using PVC or ABS and do a sort of Y pipe to a single smaller pod filter that would roughly correlate to the opening from the snorkel. Might help increase the vacumm pulse and reduce cross wind influence without the size of the stock airbox.

[choneofakind]

maybe. I've never thought of that. might make for some interesting intake resonances though, with all that y-pipe action in the intake. Of all the options I could think of, the air box was just the simplest one that I knew worked.

[setasai]

I'll give it a try in 2 weeks when I get home. I wonder if it would generate resonances any more random than just pod-filters. I'm not talking about a Y with 45deg angles. More like 2 short tubes coming out connecting 90deg to a horizontal piece and the single pod filter 90deg to the horizontal piece. In anycase, pure speculation. I'll give it a shot. Sounds easy enough and report back later. One last thing, ABS or PVC? I forget which is lighter.

[Red250R]

So the install is done. Haven't started it yet because i have a couple more questions about start up. In the pdf sent from ecotrons, it explains the initial start up. I know first off i have to check to see if all the wiring is correct. I can't imagine that being wrong but i haven't checked yet. I came inside to grab my key but stopped and checked on here to see if there was anything related. After i check that the wiring is correct, then i put the gas back into the tank and turn the key to the on position 3 times to let the gas pump thru. Now before i hit the start button, does it have to be in eco or rich mode? That's really the main question. I ask because in the pdf it doesn't say but under the O2 sensors section it talks about starting it in open loop mode first and not to install the sensors yet and to use the bung plugs. So....lol

[choneofakind]

To be really honest, I ignored the advice to start it in rich mode without O2 sensors. I just fired it up right away in eco mode with oxygen sensors. Worked fine for me.


Just remember that with any new welds (the O2 bungs) you're going to get some white smoke from the exhaust. Don't freak out. The white smoke will stop after a little bit. That's just the flux they use on the welds (I think) burning off.