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Old April 1st, 2013, 12:56 AM   #81
tubarney
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after a quick sand and polish. I will end up removing the majority of the imperfections even though its going inside the engine. I really could care less how it looks, just how much it weighs.
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Old April 1st, 2013, 05:17 AM   #82
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Looking good.
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Old April 1st, 2013, 06:39 AM   #83
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thanks. I'm very happy with the way it turned out. I manage to get things pretty even.

This is the final finish. I have a bit more sanding to do on the other sides. I will be dropping it off for the balancing on wednesday or thursday.
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Old April 2nd, 2013, 04:45 AM   #84
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anyone used Brad Penn Break-in oil SAE 30 before?
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Old April 2nd, 2013, 04:56 PM   #85
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The crank shipped today and will be here Thursday. I also have received all my other incidental items like bearings and seals...plus I got a new exhaust. I am taking the exhaust to the machine shop tomorrow or Thursday. Should be sweet when completed.

I hope to have her up and running by May or before. Then test ride, then dyno. Then ride, ride, ride....
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Old April 2nd, 2013, 07:17 PM   #86
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Maybe sometime well have to meet up mgentz and find some nice country roads to tear up once this is completed! Do you go to the slimy crud?
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 03:04 AM   #87
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The crank shipped today and will be here Thursday. I also have received all my other incidental items like bearings and seals...plus I got a new exhaust. I am taking the exhaust to the machine shop tomorrow or Thursday. Should be sweet when completed.

I hope to have her up and running by May or before. Then test ride, then dyno. Then ride, ride, ride....
when you say you got a new exhaust. Are you making it from scratch(raw materials) or are you modifying one to make it fit? Have you decided on the shape of the headers?

Did they give you a final weight for your crank?
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 05:09 AM   #88
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If your wondering if knife edging a crank weakens it, the answer is NO.

The webs aren't stressed. You will find many deep holes drilled in them from the factory for balancing. Much worse than edging.

You can take as much weight out of the webs without jeopardising the integrity of the crankshaft.

If you gun drill the journals or pins then you will weaken it and have to nitride treat it.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 08:04 AM   #89
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Maybe sometime well have to meet up mgentz and find some nice country roads to tear up once this is completed! Do you go to the slimy crud?
Most likely. Depends on timing of things....
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 08:05 AM   #90
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when you say you got a new exhaust. Are you making it from scratch(raw materials) or are you modifying one to make it fit? Have you decided on the shape of the headers?

Did they give you a final weight for your crank?
I am modifying a consumer exhaust to fit. I bought it, now the machine shop has to modify the header. I will post pics once complete but if it doesn't work it's not worth me telling you.....yet. If you absolutely must know, I bought a Leo Vince LVOne SBK exhaust.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 02:58 PM   #91
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Alright...I got confirmation from my machinist so I feel confident sharing my tips on the exhaust.

You HAVE to buy an exhaust that attaches to the head using a seperate flange. Area p is welded pipe and does not work. The leo vince does and is comparable to the area p race exhaust. Once you have that sorted out you need to completely remake the flange to fit. The lv is cnc machined to start and the piece going to head is too small to cut and weld without warpage. So my guy is making me two new ones out of 303 stainless and it will fit my head perfectly. For gaskets I am using the area p gaskets that I have and boring them a little to fit.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 06:32 PM   #92
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If your wondering if knife edging a crank weakens it, the answer is NO.


You speak a lot about knife edging but not of its pupose .
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 06:45 PM   #93
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usually its done to reduce drag on the crank when it passes through the oil in the sump, and lightens it abit.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 07:06 PM   #94
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usually its done to reduce drag on the crank when it passes through the oil in the sump, and lightens it abit.
No s***. You don't say.

Are you going to notice a benefit from this NO.

Will you from the lightening. Yes.

Why I don't go into it. Do you want to talk why I polsihed it. Maybe it because oil doesn't stick to a shinny surface like it does to a rough one. Makes it lighter again. When they balance a crank, they use a factor of the weight of the oil.

You can also determine what weight oil you have to used by measuring your bearing clearances and working out your oil clearance.

What exactly to you mean by lightening it a bit? Do you want me to do the math for you how much force a pound of weight puts on a rotating assembly at 14000k rpm.

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Alright...I got confirmation from my machinist so I feel confident sharing my tips on the exhaust.

You HAVE to buy an exhaust that attaches to the head using a seperate flange. Area p is welded pipe and does not work. The leo vince does and is comparable to the area p race exhaust. Once you have that sorted out you need to completely remake the flange to fit. The lv is cnc machined to start and the piece going to head is too small to cut and weld without warpage. So my guy is making me two new ones out of 303 stainless and it will fit my head perfectly. For gaskets I am using the area p gaskets that I have and boring them a little to fit.
I would go the same way. Its too complicated trying to design your own system. At least for me anyway. I looked at my 2 bros last night and it uses a small piece of round metal as the flange. I can get this cut out and a new piece welded in that will blend in better.

Turns out I don't need to change my full exhaust.

Last futzed with by tubarney; April 3rd, 2013 at 11:36 PM.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 07:15 PM   #95
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You speak a lot about knife edging but not of its pupose .
On our crank it is so you are wrong, On other cranks thats knife edging purpose because you can't lighten them. You need to make up the weight with mallory.

On our crank, balance factor is not important.

Meaning you can lighten it and change the factor without affecting the smoothness of the engine.

Thats why you don't remove the balance shaft.

You aint going to notice a difference at all from it cutting through mist better. It doesn't sit in a pool of oil.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 07:15 PM   #96
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usually its done to reduce drag on the crank when it passes through the oil in the sump, and lightens it abit.
As in submerged in oil?
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 07:22 PM   #97
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As in submerged in oil?
None of its submerged. No web sits in oil. The bottom of them may get a bit wet from splash back.

If anything it would have to cut through maybe a mm or 2 of oil that gets splashed up the cases.. The crank is pressure fed through the bearings. It is also cross-drilled
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 07:26 PM   #98
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So, is there no point to knife edging ? I have also seen knife edged con rods.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 07:40 PM   #99
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So, is there no point to knife edging ? I have also seen knife edged con rods.
There is a point if it sits in oil. Also there is benefit from it cutting through the mist better. I'm talking 10th's of a second in lap time if your a pro.

But think about it bruce. Are you really going to notice the difference?

Every crank grinder I have talked to about it says not to bother as it is a waste of time and money.


Now even with lightening the crank. I don't know exactly how much difference this is going to make.


Pretty much. I did it becuase it cost me $200 bucks in oil and gaskets just to get the crank out.

I have spend $2000 dollars on engine work so far so whats an extra $200-300 on grinding at this point.

Am I going to notice the difference in the crank after all these mods. Hell NO. Maybe if you did it as a single mod.

I'm putting a head, pistons and crank in at the same time. A day after I'm putting in the cams. I also need to get the carbs tuned for no airbox. There is no way I will tell the difference.

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Old April 3rd, 2013, 09:37 PM   #100
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No s***. You don't say.

Are you going to notice a benefit from this NO.

Will you from the lightening. Yes.

Why I don't go into it. Do you want to talk why I polsihed it. Maybe it because oil doesn't stick to a shinny surface like it does to a rough one. Makes it lighter again. When they balance a crank, they use a factor of the weight of the oil.

You can also determine what weight oil you have to used by measuring your bearing clearances and working out your oil clearance.

What exactly to you mean by lightening it a bit? Do you want me to do the math for you how much force a pound of weight puts on a rotating assembly at 14000k rpm.



I looked at my 2 bros last night and it uses a small piece of round metal as the flange. I can get this cut out and a new piece welded in that will blend in better.

Turns out I don't need to change my full exhaust.
chill out dude, was just answering a question, you dont have to be a dick about it
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 09:44 PM   #101
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heres the crank. Balanced. Polishing getting done in morning. Its ready tomo.

He said I took a lot of weight out but he managed to get it balanced.

He also said I could take more out of it next time. He is going to talk to me about my options when I get there tomo. This is the first Ninja 250 crank Adrian has done so he has learnt a few things now. He was really pleased becaused he managed to get it balanced perfectly.

He is going to give me a final weight for my crank. I know you probably don't want to give me yours Mike, since you spent a bit a cash on your crank but I will post mine compared to stock.

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Old April 3rd, 2013, 11:51 PM   #102
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chill out dude, was just answering a question, you dont have to be a dick about it
Sorry about that. I completely mis read what was said. How I f***ed that up so badly I have no idea. For some reason, after a previous thread. I keep thinking bruce is trying to take the piss.

Anyway, again I must apologise. The last thing I want is to stop someone else from inputing into the discussion.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 01:35 AM   #103
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all good mate, cant wait to see what else is in store for these. was going to do a similiar thing but ive gone down a differant route with my bike
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Old April 4th, 2013, 03:50 AM   #104
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Sorry about that. I completely mis read what was said. How I f***ed that up so badly I have no idea. For some reason, after a previous thread. I keep thinking bruce is trying to take the piss.
Seeing as though this thread is about engine building and supposed to be informative, I was just leading you into a discussion about the effects of crank case windage and horsepower losses due to crankcase pumping. You seem to be a delicate individual and take some statements personal, not intended on my part. Just trying to get accurate and helpful info out there.
As for knife edging, weather it be cranks or rods, is to reduce horsepower robbing windage, think of it as streamlining the crank shaft as it rotates through the air in the crank case.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 05:57 PM   #105
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it's a shame to put works of art into an engine...

she weighs in just under 11 lbs and I can see myself in her. I also had the rods modified for longevity by placing a bronze bushing in the small end and adding oil holes.

I'm so proud.

crank 1.jpg crank 2.jpg Crank 3.jpg rod 1.jpg rod 2.jpg rod 3.jpg rod 4.jpg
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Old April 4th, 2013, 07:42 PM   #106
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Dang your making me jealous
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Old April 4th, 2013, 09:12 PM   #107
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Old April 4th, 2013, 09:52 PM   #108
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The cases are back together. The crank and balance shaft are in the middle of the clearance range and the rod bearings have been set at the loose end of the range. I used black bearings for this.

Other engine builders suggested this for getting more oil to the rods.
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Old April 5th, 2013, 06:38 AM   #109
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So I got the cases together, but i have too much into this motor to let some silly piece of dirt ruin it.

Does anyone have any experience with flushing a motor? I have read about filling the case with either kerosene or mineral spirits and draining (repeat till clear). Thoughts?
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Old April 5th, 2013, 06:58 AM   #110
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I dont think it would be a good idea to flush it with anything that would act as a solvant. You will end up washing out all your assembly lube and end up trashing your work of art the second you hit the starter button. As long as everything was clean and stearle on assembly you shouldn't have anything in there that the filter won't take care of. If you still think flushing is needed use a thin weight engine oil in large quantity and run it through.
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Old April 5th, 2013, 07:24 AM   #111
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Maybe you know or read this already but if not, here's good info about break in an engine http://mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

I wish you good success and fun with the engine and before I forget it's a nice build
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Old April 5th, 2013, 07:32 AM   #112
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I dont think it would be a good idea to flush it with anything that would act as a solvant. You will end up washing out all your assembly lube and end up trashing your work of art the second you hit the starter button. As long as everything was clean and stearle on assembly you shouldn't have anything in there that the filter won't take care of. If you still think flushing is needed use a thin weight engine oil in large quantity and run it through.
I cleaned and used compressed air on all bearing and mating surfaces. My biggest area of concern is where the shift drum is. I had the case turned upside down so that I would not have to remove the transmission, and this area could have caught something.
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Old April 5th, 2013, 07:37 AM   #113
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You put the motor together with dirt in it????

Go sit in the corner. NOW

Then it is to the black board with you. "I will clean every part of the motor to with in an inch of its life. Then clean it again. "
One million times.

Flush it with motor oil only.
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Old April 5th, 2013, 08:04 AM   #114
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You put the motor together with dirt in it????

Go sit in the corner. NOW

Then it is to the black board with you. "I will clean every part of the motor to with in an inch of its life. Then clean it again. "
One million times.

Flush it with motor oil only.
I didn't say I had dirt in it, I said there is a possibility. I don't like that possibility. So now, I can either pull it apart and take the top case off and leave the bottom or flush it with something because I'm paranoid. I don't want to start it till I am 100%.

I may also have OCD.
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Old April 5th, 2013, 09:02 AM   #115
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Don't worry. Is the top end on yet ?
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Old April 5th, 2013, 09:53 AM   #116
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Not to change the subject, but do any of you know if there is any one year engine thats better than the other ? Also, does the pre gen engine bolt in to the 08 and up chassis?
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Old April 5th, 2013, 10:02 AM   #117
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Don't worry. Is the top end on yet ?
nope. I was up late last night doing the lower end and tonight I should be able to work on it some more. But I'm still paranoid so there may be some rework involved.
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Old April 5th, 2013, 10:03 AM   #118
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Not to change the subject, but do any of you know if there is any one year engine thats better than the other ? Also, does the pre gen engine bolt in to the 08 and up chassis?
heard good things about both. the 08-12 engine has a better cam chain adjuster placement, but you hear bad things about the adjuster itself...

As for streetability, the 08 tends to be better.
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Old April 5th, 2013, 12:03 PM   #119
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Here are some rumors that I have heard;
1st year ( 88 I think ) had the most cam duration.
Pre gens have bigger exhaust valves and ports.
Pre gens require some bolt hole mod to fit in new gen bike.
I know about the tensioner issue, but is that correctable with a mechanical
One ?
Also, can you go 4mm over on the cylinder block without boring the case ?
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Old April 5th, 2013, 12:06 PM   #120
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OOPS ! Forgot one, can we get some clarification on eliminating the balance shaft? In one thread everyone poo pooed that idea then later said it could be done. My engine will only be for track use in the 6000 to 14000 rpm range.
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