Group Buy: EFI (Fuel Injection) Conversion Kit

[setasai]

Alright it started up fine this morning. Took a couple starts but it seems fairly stable.

@n4mwd Quicksteel says it's gasoline resistant. One of the uses they described is to plug up leaks in a gas tank.

I made the tube about a foot long and sloped straight up and then bends around. Lets see if this helps/solves the issue. I also have the MAP sensor coming from the top of the TB so there really shouldnt be much flowing up that tube. I think if the MAP tube diameter was larger, that might solve it as well.

[Flipflash]

Doe anyone know the performance gains? Any dyno results available?

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by setasai

Alright it started up fine this morning. Took a couple starts but it seems fairly stable.

@n4mwd Quicksteel says it's gasoline resistant. One of the uses they described is to plug up leaks in a gas tank.

I made the tube about a foot long and sloped straight up and then bends around. Lets see if this helps/solves the issue. I also have the MAP sensor coming from the top of the TB so there really shouldnt be much flowing up that tube. I think if the MAP tube diameter was larger, that might solve it as well.

think it would be bad to drill it out a bit? lol and just make sure the sensor is facing down. I started off with like two feet of tubing going in and out of the tb's and it still got gas in there. So make sure its facing down.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

think it would be bad to drill it out a bit? lol and just make sure the sensor is facing down. I started off with like two feet of tubing going in and out of the tb's and it still got gas in there. So make sure its facing down.

Not sure. We can ask Matt about it and see. I'll consider drilling it out when Matt sends us the new better fitting boots. At the moment I'm too lazy to take it apart. That stinks that you still got gas in there. What if we put a Y in the line? Like from the MAP plug is 1 tube then split to 2 tubes then combine back to one tube before going to the sensor. All of this would be slanted downwards of course.

There has to be a way. I thought about adding an inline filter but I think that would change the pressure responses.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by Flipflash

Doe anyone know the performance gains? Any dyno results available?

I'm not sure about a dyno but overall I would estimate that it's very similar to a well tuned carb.

[n4mwd]

I didn't realize this until you guys started complaining about it, but the ecotrons TB has the injector recessed too far behind the MAP sensor vacuum port. This is why you are having problems. If you look at the OEM TB you can see that the vacuum port is even with the injector nozzle and on the opposite side. The ecotrons port is right next to the hole for the injector.

Here is a possible workaround for the MAP sensor filling with gas problem. If you take a small jar and JB-weld two ports to it (short piece of copper tubing or fish tank air couplers), the MAP sensor will be protected from gas entering the vacuum port. The only problem is that you will need to empty the container into the tank when it gets full. Also, the orientation is critical. I'm not sure how this would affect the sensor's operation, but it will stop the gas from getting in for sure.

Filling the voids in the injector tube with quicksteel so that there is just a simple straight tube to the bore might help, but because of the proximity to the vacuum port, I don't think this problem will ever go away completely.

[n4mwd]

Does anybody know the status of our replacement rubber intake bushings? That is, the gas resistant version of the bicycle inner tube that fits on the TB. Did Matt actually say he was working on them? All I got was an email saying he was replacing the fuel tap because the copper stems were breaking off and squirting gas everywhere. I haven't gotten anything from him regarding the rubber bushings.

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Does anybody know the status of our replacement rubber intake bushings? That is, the gas resistant version of the bicycle inner tube that fits on the TB. Did Matt actually say he was working on them? All I got was an email saying he was replacing the fuel tap because the copper stems were breaking off and squirting gas everywhere. I haven't gotten anything from him regarding the rubber bushings.

Who has this affected by this anyways?

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

Who has this affected by this anyways?

ScattCatt discovered this problem when he removed his TB. Pictured below are his originals and the replacements he made himself out of radiator hose.



As far as the Fuel Tap problem, I only heard about that from Matt.

[setasai]

I asked Matt about the rubber intake boots a week ago and he said they are working on a customized boot that'll fit perfectly on both the engine and throttlebody side. No word on when it will be complete but I wouldnt be surprised if it'll take a few weeks.

As for the copper fuel taps, no idea. I'm not using them since I've got a Cali tank but I've also only heard of one guy that had the issue.

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by setasai

I asked Matt about the rubber intake boots a week ago and he said they are working on a customized boot that'll fit perfectly on both the engine and throttlebody side. No word on when it will be complete but I wouldnt be surprised if it'll take a few weeks.

As for the copper fuel taps, no idea. I'm not using them since I've got a Cali tank but I've also only heard of one guy that had the issue.

Ha that guy was me. The piping for the return line was pretty weak but probably was my fault or the vibrations from the trip the day before. Idk.

And got to remember scattcat is running his bike really rich compaired to most of us so wouldnt be a surprise that he has more gas getting to those boots. Thats why he was getting the popping off throttle boot as well. Cant compair all bc of one. Same for my incident. probably was my fault but i ended up using my CA tank to fix my problems anyways.

Anyways. How is everyones kit doing so far? Anyone try the performance switch?

I tried yesterday since i been having the ecu learn for a long time now. I really didnt notice too big of a difference. Just up high in the rpms but at idle and such seemed like it was getting too much fuel. maybe 1whp

[setasai]

Oh haha there you go. Glad you got that fixed. Running the tubing up to the vent port isnt that big of a deal. I have yet to put an air filter on the middle port though. Is that important?

My kit has been running great so far. Only took it out a few times since installing the O2 sensors. I did feel that the O2 sensors smoothed out the engine immediately after installation. I took it out for a ride, installed it, took it out again and the difference at low RPMs was huge. Not so much "more power" but just smoother power.

As for the boots issue, I'm not having too much trouble with it but I feel like the throttlebody does shift out over time. I have pod filters so the vibration, I would imagine, can wiggle the TB out of the boots. Maybe I should find a way to support the pod filters themselves. Not sure. Give it a few more rides and I'll report back once again.

[flynjay]

My system is working well. I have had two issues, the MAP sensor died due to fuel ingestion and the supplied petcock broke as somebody else described. Mine was off the bike when I noticed the failure.

The MAP sensor was replaced by Matt.
I decided to modify the original pregen petcock so the return line goes to the old vacuum line. This has been working quite well. It did take some time and itterations to get the fuel line routing all squared away, but it is in a good config now.

I have 700+ miles since installing the kit. I had a look at the plugs last weekend and they are textbook perfect mixture. I have actually never seen that in person.

I also am running pod filters without a problem. I do have the stock pregen carb boots, so that may be the difference.

As far as the "rich" setting. I have not tried it. But you can setup the map to whatever you like (rich or lean). If you feel it is too rich on the low side update the desired lambda map to reflect that.

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by setasai

Oh haha there you go. Glad you got that fixed. Running the tubing up to the vent port isnt that big of a deal. I have yet to put an air filter on the middle port though. Is that important?

My kit has been running great so far. Only took it out a few times since installing the O2 sensors. I did feel that the O2 sensors smoothed out the engine immediately after installation. I took it out for a ride, installed it, took it out again and the difference at low RPMs was huge. Not so much "more power" but just smoother power.

As for the boots issue, I'm not having too much trouble with it but I feel like the throttlebody does shift out over time. I have pod filters so the vibration, I would imagine, can wiggle the TB out of the boots. Maybe I should find a way to support the pod filters themselves. Not sure. Give it a few more rides and I'll report back once again.

Well see i have pods too and havent seen any movement so idk.

And for the middle port i just vented it and have a hose going to the bottom of the bike. that one is just for water and junk from the cap. the other one is the actual vent i just left that one open.

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by flynjay

My system is working well. I have had two issues, the MAP sensor died due to fuel ingestion and the supplied petcock broke as somebody else described. Mine was off the bike when I noticed the failure.

The MAP sensor was replaced by Matt.
I decided to modify the original pregen petcock so the return line goes to the old vacuum line. This has been working quite well. It did take some time and itterations to get the fuel line routing all squared away, but it is in a good config now.

I have 700+ miles since installing the kit. I had a look at the plugs last weekend and they are textbook perfect mixture. I have actually never seen that in person.

I also am running pod filters without a problem. I do have the stock pregen carb boots, so that may be the difference.

As far as the "rich" setting. I have not tried it. But you can setup the map to whatever you like (rich or lean). If you feel it is too rich on the low side update the desired lambda map to reflect that.

That is true. Im probably going to look at that table and see what i can change

And so did ur Map sensor break when it ingested too much fuel? Mine seems to be working fine after i let it air out. Hope it dont break and i got about 700 miles on mine too now. I need to check my spark plugs and i want to do my valve job too.

And for those that are wondering those tusk fuel quick connects really work. makes working on the bike so much better since u can take the tank off without having to drain all the gas

[setasai]

@flynjay and @EMSRacer07 Great! Glad to see it all working out for you. Also great to hear the pod filters dont seem to shift. Mine havent actually popped out but seeing it wobble up and down in a rhythmic fashion to the engine, I could imagine it slipping out at some point. I wont worry since if after 700+miles nothing happened, I'm sure within that i'd take the bike part again and give it an overall checkup anyway. Just at that to my bimonthly bike check.

Am I the only one with the injectors coming from the top so far?

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

That is true. Im probably going to look at that table and see what i can change

And so did ur Map sensor break when it ingested too much fuel?

And for those that are wondering those tusk fuel quick connects really work. makes working on the bike so much better since u can take the tank off without having to drain all the gas

Yes, I tried to dry it out for several days and nothing. It is in the mail on the way back to Matt. Those tusk connectors look sharp. After the petcock broke, I decided to try modifing the original.

It has been working well, initially the bubbles didn't flow out very well but I have it so the filter is facing in such a way that if there is any fuel in it it puddles at the outlet side of the filter. The bubbles worked themselves out over about a week.

Originally Posted by setasai

@flynjay and @EMSRacer07 Great! Glad to see it all working out for you. Also great to hear the pod filters dont seem to shift. Mine havent actually popped out but seeing it wobble up and down in a rhythmic fashion to the engine, I could imagine it slipping out at some point. I wont worry since if after 700+miles nothing happened, I'm sure within that i'd take the bike part again and give it an overall checkup anyway. Just at that to my bimonthly bike check.

Am I the only one with the injectors coming from the top so far?

You could rig up a support using the old airbox front mount, If you are worried about it. Mine seems very well attached (of course I have the clamps on very tight).

[setasai]

Originally Posted by flynjay

You could rig up a support using the old airbox front mount, If you are worried about it. Mine seems very well attached (of course I have the clamps on very tight).

Same here. The airbox side is on tight. It's the engine side of the throttlebody that I am concerned about popping out. Still, no biggy. If something happens, we'll fix it then.

My MAP sensor took overnight... luckily there wasnt a lot of gas in it. We'll all need to keep an eye on it. I am considering putting a drain or filter inline but that might mess up the vacuum readings.

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by setasai

Same here. The airbox side is on tight. It's the engine side of the throttlebody that I am concerned about popping out. Still, no biggy. If something happens, we'll fix it then.

My MAP sensor took overnight... luckily there wasnt a lot of gas in it. We'll all need to keep an eye on it. I am considering putting a drain or filter inline but that might mess up the vacuum readings.

I ended up zip-tieing it to the frame about 6" above the throttle body. I noticed gas moving in the hose while the bike is running but after I shut it off the hose is empty. Hopefully that will solve the issue.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

Anyways. How is everyones kit doing so far?

With all the latest problems with the TB that have surfaced (rotting rubber bushings, TB popping out, fuel in the MAP sensor, etc.) I have decided to abandon the thought of trying to save the ecotrons TB. What I said from the start is that it had to be at least as reliable as the carburetors for me to use it, and while this was promised, the kit has not even come close to the reliability of the carbs based on the facts you guys have reported here.

If I fix the fuel rail, then I would have to drill and tap a new vacuum port. After that, there will be something else. I know you guys have just used the plastic injector housings, but you have fatigued the plastic and/or used low pressure tubing to do it. I have also noticed that one of the electrical connectors for the fuel injectors on my wiring harness is not the right one to fit the injector.

Basically, I haven't decided on whether I will be selling the kit to someone who isn't as picky about reliability, or trying to buy an OEM TB and use that. So far, with the exception of the fuel tap, 99% of the kit's problems could be solved with a properly designed TB.

[setasai]

@n4mwd Correct the TB is the cause of many of the issues but this is to be expected since the TB was not intended for the ninja250 to begin with. It "can" be used to great results but as you said, there are things that could be better.

This whole installation is a learning process for both us and ecotrons and I think they are doing a fantastic job at accommodating our issues and changes. That said, I can see why you might give up on it. If you do decide to continue and have the money, find yourself a UK TB and just be done with it. The ECU works great. I havent spent that much money on the TB as you did so in the future, I may consider getting an OEM TB to complete the kit.

@flynjay Not a bad idea and easy too. I'll give that a shot as well.

[Scattcatt]

Actually @EMSRacer07 I'm really not running as rich as you might think (richer than the stoich AFR, yes, but significantly richer than the stock desired lambda chart, no.) If you highlight all of the cells in the desired lambda table (excluding RPM values and TPS values) the average on the stock table is 0.891115625 where as the table that I'm currently running has an average of 0.884353741. This difference of 0.006761884 is very small, to the point of not even being noticeable. I'm actually considering leaning my table out to have an average of 0.935714286 which would be a 13.1 AFR which may or may not give more power (will require testing) as I'm currently sitting at a 13.0 AFR. Now, the stock desired lamba table has an interesting taper to it, which I suspect is largely due to the fact that richer mixtures help cool an engine but on the negative side, the stock table goes all the way down to .8298 for WOT beyond 3,000 RPM, this gives an AFR of 11.6172 which is very low regarding optimum power (typically). Comparing my chart to the stock chart now, the vast majority of the RPM's used while actually driving in the stock chart are even richer than what I'm running. The main exception are all the "1"s at the top for idle in the stock chart. Just wanted to clear that up in reality, your point still holds about me running richer than you guys simply due to the fact that I'm not using the O2 sensors though, just perhaps not nearly as rich as you may or may not have thought.

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by Scattcatt

Actually @EMSRacer07 I'm really not running as rich as you might think (richer than the stoich AFR, yes, but significantly richer than the stock desired lambda chart, no.) If you highlight all of the cells in the desired lambda table (excluding RPM values and TPS values) the average on the stock table is 0.891115625 where as the table that I'm currently running has an average of 0.884353741. This difference of 0.006761884 is very small, to the point of not even being noticeable. I'm actually considering leaning my table out to have an average of 0.935714286 which would be a 13.1 AFR which may or may not give more power (will require testing) as I'm currently sitting at a 13.0 AFR. Now, the stock desired lamba table has an interesting taper to it, which I suspect is largely due to the fact that richer mixtures help cool an engine but on the negative side, the stock table goes all the way down to .8298 for WOT beyond 3,000 RPM, this gives an AFR of 11.6172 which is very low regarding optimum power (typically). Comparing my chart to the stock chart now, the vast majority of the RPM's used while actually driving in the stock chart are even richer than what I'm running. The main exception are all the "1"s at the top for idle in the stock chart. Just wanted to clear that up in reality, your point still holds about me running richer than you guys simply due to the fact that I'm not using the O2 sensors though, just perhaps not nearly as rich as you may or may not have thought.

Ha good deal from the way u were modifing the tables i thought u were richer than that but good. U really need to try the bike with the o2 sensors in though. Really smooothens it out

[Scattcatt]

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

Ha good deal from the way u were modifing the tables i thought u were richer than that but good. U really need to try the bike with the o2 sensors in though. Really smooothens it out

It's a thought I still toy with, but still hesitate on doing what I'm ACTUALLY considering doing is putting wideband sensors in there with a gauge on my dash to just keep track of my AFR without taping into the EFI kit. So a separate system entirely. This will make my desired lambda tuning even more effective as I'll actually be able to SEE AFR's at certain TPS settings and RPM's

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by Scattcatt

It's a thought I still toy with, but still hesitate on doing what I'm ACTUALLY considering doing is putting wideband sensors in there with a gauge on my dash to just keep track of my AFR without taping into the EFI kit. So a separate system entirely. This will make my desired lambda tuning even more effective as I'll actually be able to SEE AFR's at certain TPS settings and RPM's

In reality you can do that with the O2 sensors of the system. Have the bike adjust to stoic AFR. Once the EFI has learned for some time you can adjust the "rich" setting to be where you want.

I would think that you are running pretty rich since it looks like the base map was pretty rich. When I installed the O2 sensors they were pretty much pegged on the rich side for the first few rides. You already have the narrow band sensors. You would have to tap the exhaust to put in the wide band o2 sensor anyway.

[setasai]

Hey anybody have an idea for a fuel trap in the MAP sensor tubing. I got gas all the way up a foot of tubing. Matt has suggested trying some stiffer tubing but I'd also like to put a trap there as well just in case. This way I can test out a few other methods and not have to wait a day for it to dry.

Sigh, just my luck too. I rode it all the way to school and when I went to start it on my way out, it wouldnt start. Made me sad and late for an exam. Luckily the professor is super cool with me and I was easily able to finish it in under 20minutes. No biggy but it definitely made me nervous for a while.

And about the decel fuel cutoff. Can someone post a screenshot of yours and highlight the boxes that I should change if I wanted to use 3000rpms as the cutoff point? I look at the decel window but it's just gibberish to me.

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by setasai

Hey anybody have an idea for a fuel trap in the MAP sensor tubing. I got gas all the way up a foot of tubing. Matt has suggested trying some stiffer tubing but I'd also like to put a trap there as well just in case. This way I can test out a few other methods and not have to wait a day for it to dry.

Sigh, just my luck too. I rode it all the way to school and when I went to start it on my way out, it wouldnt start. Made me sad and late for an exam. Luckily the professor is super cool with me and I was easily able to finish it in under 20minutes. No biggy but it definitely made me nervous for a while.

And about the decel fuel cutoff. Can someone post a screenshot of yours and highlight the boxes that I should change if I wanted to use 3000rpms as the cutoff point? I look at the decel window but it's just gibberish to me.

i was thinking of adding like a fuel filter or some type of container that would hold some fuel and let pressure get past it. Where do u have it mounted the MAP sensor?

[Scattcatt]

Originally Posted by flynjay

In reality you can do that with the O2 sensors of the system. Have the bike adjust to stoic AFR. Once the EFI has learned for some time you can adjust the "rich" setting to be where you want.

I would think that you are running pretty rich since it looks like the base map was pretty rich. When I installed the O2 sensors they were pretty much pegged on the rich side for the first few rides. You already have the narrow band sensors. You would have to tap the exhaust to put in the wide band o2 sensor anyway.

Very true, but a wideband sensor and gauge would be able to tell me exactly what my AFR is rather than interpreting "rich" or "lean" conditions based off of the narrowband O2 oscillations registered in ProCAL. It's purely a thought, definitely not willing to commit to the idea yet or anything. Plus tuning would only be "crude" with the wideband sensor without a dyno as opposed to "really crude" with the narrowband sensors

[choneofakind]

Scattcatt, it sounds like you need some dyno time mate. I think you would really benefit from that. You seem to know what you're doing, but it would do some good to be able to play with a few different maps and see what changes the power where.

[justinswidebody]

Here's some pics of my new gauge cluster with the 2 air fuel ratio gauges. I like it. Now I just need to reinstall my fuel injection.







I think I'm going to move the main gauge cluster closer to the top. I think it will look better. What does everyone think?

[choneofakind]

What's the point of having 2 AFR gauges? Wouldn't both sides be doing the same thing as long as you programmed the same map into each side? Wouldn't a temp gauge be more useful compared to a second AFR gauge?

[Scattcatt]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Scattcatt, it sounds like you need some dyno time mate. I think you would really benefit from that. You seem to know what you're doing, but it would do some good to be able to play with a few different maps and see what changes the power where.

*sigh* call me crazy... But I think I'm going to save up and get my own dyno... Like $5000 for the one I'm looking at, in reality it's an issue of not wanting to take my bike down and get it dyno'ed by someone else I REALLY do want to get some dyno tests done though, I'm itching for it man.

[choneofakind]

are you totally serious with me right now? that's so cool!

[setasai]

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

i was thinking of adding like a fuel filter or some type of container that would hold some fuel and let pressure get past it. Where do u have it mounted the MAP sensor?

Yea it could be useful even if it isnt necessary. This way you know for a fact that you wont be stranded like I was.

I have it mounted from the top and it comes across towards the back of the bike and is zip tied to the frame.

I'm going to swing out to the autostore and take a look around real quick. Ideally I want something that can hold some fuel and then let it drain out so that it doesnt need to be emptied but I'm not sure that would be ideal either. I'll work with Matt to figure out a better fix for this. He suggested that there might be some kind of tuning that has allowed too much residual fuel to stay in the throttlebody thus giving it the opportunity to travel up the tubing.

[justinswidebody]

The gauge has water temp on it also :-)

Two a/f gauges are to show that the 2 cylinders are running the same.

Plus all n all it cost me 150 dollars

[Scattcatt]

@justinswidebody that's actually pretty freaking sick! I'm totally digging that dash, I may consider something similar if I choose to go the wideband sensor route eventually. and @choneofakind well it's just another thought, I mean, $5000 is a LOT of money for this college kid

[choneofakind]

Oh right. Forgot you were in college also. psssh just get it set up pretty well, get the O2 sensors installed so it can be more exact, and then get it dyno tested to see what she can put out

[justinswidebody]

If you want me to make you one let me know. :-) I can build more.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

I didn't realize this until you guys started complaining about it, but the ecotrons TB has the injector recessed too far behind the MAP sensor vacuum port. This is why you are having problems. If you look at the OEM TB you can see that the vacuum port is even with the injector nozzle and on the opposite side. The ecotrons port is right next to the hole for the injector.

Here is a possible workaround for the MAP sensor filling with gas problem. If you take a small jar and JB-weld two ports to it (short piece of copper tubing or fish tank air couplers), the MAP sensor will be protected from gas entering the vacuum port. The only problem is that you will need to empty the container into the tank when it gets full. Also, the orientation is critical. I'm not sure how this would affect the sensor's operation, but it will stop the gas from getting in for sure.

Filling the voids in the injector tube with quicksteel so that there is just a simple straight tube to the bore might help, but because of the proximity to the vacuum port, I don't think this problem will ever go away completely.

Just occurred to me... On the OEM throttle body, how is the MAP sensor not having any gas pool into the tube if the injectors and the vacuum sensor hole is on opposite sides. Wouldnt that mean that the sensor is coming from the bottom? I bet it's because the injectors are in line with vacuum port and also surrounded by open space that the spray is directly into the cylinder and doesnt stick to anything.

Crazy I tell you. So much engineering goes into this and here we are trying to make a DIY makeshift version of something that was so intelligently designed.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by setasai

Just occurred to me... On the OEM throttle body, how is the MAP sensor not having any gas pool into the tube if the injectors and the vacuum sensor hole is on opposite sides. Wouldnt that mean that the sensor is coming from the bottom? I bet it's because the injectors are in line with vacuum port and also surrounded by open space that the spray is directly into the cylinder and doesnt stick to anything.

Crazy I tell you. So much engineering goes into this and here we are trying to make a DIY makeshift version of something that was so intelligently designed.

Kawasaki has a lot more experience with this than we do. The vacuum hole is actually more like at the 4 O'clock position than 6 O'clock. Thus, in order for it to get in to the port, it has to slide almost all the way around and if the injector drips straight down for some reason, the drop falls to the 6 O'clock position (if it makes it that far).

That in addition to the fact that the injector is surrounded by open space as you noted. And probably also because Kawi uses better injectors.

Another thing I thought of is that its possible that ecotrons is purging the fuel pressure from the fuel rail at shutdown. This would cause the injector to squirt into the TB with no place to go - except into the vacuum port. If the bike runs fine and then wont start after its sits a few minutes, then this could be the culprit.