Possible Engine Damage, Oil Overfill, Max Speed 25MPH

[USMarine]

Here's the issues/what I know-
2003 Ninja 250 now runs but has weak exhaust output on right side (if sitting on bike) with strong output on the left.
Bike goes in gear but can barely hit 25mph in 3rd. Throttle response is a little slow but I can't get any power from it in general.

Bought the bike not running, came re-jetted (105) with baffles removed and pod air filters.
Switched carbs from my '94 and the stock airbox and now she runs good.
The previous owner took it in to get an oil change and they overfilled it so when he was on the freeway the crankcase breather spewed oil everywhere and he didn't want to mess around with the bike so I picked it up.

What do you guys/gals think? Is it possible to take the bottom end from my other engine and swap them. I would just swap engines but my '94 engine has a top end tick and runs rough but gear wise is good or just get new parts for the '03?

[Triple Jim]

From your description, it sounds like it's running on one cylinder. That could be an ignition or carburetion problem.

Does the right head pipe get hot at all? Is it as hot as the left side. (careful)

[USMarine]

Unfortunately the engine is already off the bike as I wanted to take a look inside. If I had to make a best guess i'd say the right didn't warm up as much as the left though.

unmentioned before, the right side also had white smoke which is confirmed by the valves and opening to the exhaust being pretty wet with oil and the left being bone dry.

oil also starting wetting the outside of the gasket on the top cover of the engine so possibly too much blow by?

Anyway if it is a cylinder issue, would I have to do a rebuild with the pistons? A little nervous as I have never gone into the engine fully and don't have any special tools.

[Triple Jim]

White "smoke" and a wet valve point to lack of spark at that cylinder. It seems like you're jumping the gun by talking about rebuilding the engine when you haven't pinpointed the problem yet. Since it's out, you should confirm correct valve adjustment and do a cylinder leakdown test to learn the condition of the rings and valves before you take anything apart.

[USMarine]

Your right I need to slow down.. haha just excited to get this bike up and running.

Just took out the spark plugs which I replaced (pics soon) because the old plugs were kind of melted around the tips insulation.

They lucky right one was shiny clean no working so what does that tell me now?

[USMarine]

Have never done a leakdown test, do I need anything special?

[asellus]

A leakdown tester and an air compressor. Doing some reading on how to use one will be helpful as well, but basically you want the cylinder at TDC with the valves closed, plug in the tester, give it air, and listen for where the air is rushing out (if it is). Based on that information you can narrow it down to one or two things that can be causing the problem.

Your old plugs look awful. Hopefully none of that porcelain got chewed up in the valve seats.

[Triple Jim]

A leakdown test is not terribly complicated, but you'll need to read about the gauges, valves, and procedure. There's plenty of information about it on the net. If it seems too big a task, you might find an automotive machine shop that will do the test for you. You could do a compression test instead if you rig up a way to crank the engine.

The really clean new plug was in a cylinder that never once fired with the plug installed. There was definitely something wrong that caused the old plugs to get broken center insulators. Maybe too lean and a lot of detonation. That's just a guess. It does make it seem like something is wrong besides a misfire.

[Ghostt]

Not for nothing, but one of those spark plugs look new, and the other looks soaked, I'd be looking into the fuel system, ignition, spark plug caps, etc.... Checking the coils, spark plug cap, service the caps.

Even bad plugs should do something, unless they are totally shot.

Did you renew the HT leads, and disassemble the caps?

Make sure you disassemble the caps, and clean them, and yes the caps get cruddy.

Here my write-up,

Short explanation: The inside of the hard plastic caps accumulate crud the can short out the spark. This can cause rough running or failure to start. Every time you do any work on the bike: remove them disassemble and clean them and renew the wires or at least the connections.

The long Explanation, Warning engineering information can cause Drowsiness.
The ancient cylinder design of the engine dictates that the spark emanate form the center of the combustion chamber. In order to get it there, the plugs had to be located down deep in a well between the cams. This well is a perfect place for dirt and moisture to accumulate. Then because there is no cooling water at this point the metal around the plug runs very hot. Surround this with the large amount of cool metal and you have a recipe for condensation. Now K did drill a drain hole between the fins to help (a little) but it often gets plugged up.

The moisture boils off the base of the plug and the vapor condenses on the cool plastic cap and the plug insulator. This moisture forms a easier path for the electrons to ground than jumping the gap at the plug to make a spark. Misfire.
This issue is right up there with Pilot jets as a cause of trouble.

Here's some pictures that might be helpful. I took these when I replaced the wires themselves, as it was a good time for a write-up, and the wires were OEM from 1998.

Wires are just 7mm copper core, with clear silicone jacket









IMPORTANT NOTICE: make sure to use a proper screwdriver, make sure it fits, as the parts are made of brass inside the spark plug caps





Important notice: the wire must be screwed on the spark plug cap, note the screw like object inside the spark plug cap?



Important notice: be careful to not loose the ferrules on the HT leads, these keep the wire from falling out of the coil. Below is an example of ferrules on a pressure fitting, looks familiar?

[USMarine]

I will look into getting a leak down tester and checking out the wiring tomorrow. I'm heading to work until late tonight so I won't have the time today.

Would an electrical issue cause this though? Bike supposedly ran fine before the oil change then high speed/rpm cause the bike to stop running right. I think the old plugs were like that due to incorrect jetting but that's just a guess

[Ghostt]

I would strongly suggest you check the ignition system, coils, spark plugs caps, etc.... It's am easy thing to do, doesn't take too long, and assuming everything is OK its free.

Also you might want to look into the CoPs conversation I'm the future, they are less problematic, and offer a better, stronger spark.

Here's my write-up on the subject
Blog
Kawasaki ZX Ignition Coil Pack modification.

Thread
Kawasaki ZX Ignition Coil Pack/ coil over plugs (CoPs) modification.

[USMarine]

I've been working hard at it with some all nighters so I ended up swapping engines and cooling systems just because I wanted to test the electrical system on the new bike and one engine was already out so I went ahead with that and the new bike still ran poorly with little power so I started looking at what Ghostt was saying and swapped the caps and coils with no luck so I ended up swapping the old wiring harness to the new bike and POWER! The engine seems to get pretty hot now after a short ride but I still need to bleed the cooling system.

as far as the original engine that was over filled, I got it to run in the other bike before switching the wiring but it sounded like there was metal clanking inside so I'm thinking something may have broke in the engine or is warn out.

High speed with too much oil seems like it could do some damage so I guess its either a rebuild or.. is it worth it $ wise to rebuild a pregen engine or just get another one because the engine that's in the new bike now runs but is leaking oil from multiple places now and has a top end ticking so I would like to replace it eventually.

Side note- how well do 08-12 engines fit into pregen frames? I understand it would take some work but is it worth the money/time?

[USMarine]

finally had some time after working 11 days straight and started taking down the engine from the 03 I had bought and there it was.. a hole in the piston head as well as a scored sleeve wall(pics soon) I am still going into the engine to see what else I can find and to simply learn how to work on it myself confidently. Will keep the updates coming as often as I can

[DannoXYZ]

Hole in piston would be from running too lean and hot causing detonation/pinging. Maybe the carb on that side was clogged or the jetting was off.

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by Ghostt

Not for nothing, but one of those spark plugs look new, and the other looks soaked, I'd be looking into the fuel system, ignition, spark plug caps, etc.... Checking the coils, spark plug cap, service the caps.

Even bad plugs should do something, unless they are totally shot.

Did you renew the HT leads, and disassemble the caps?

Make sure you disassemble the caps, and clean them, and yes the caps get cruddy.

Here my write-up,



Here's some pictures that might be helpful. I took these when I replaced the wires themselves, as it was a good time for a write-up, and the wires were OEM from 1998.

Wires are just 7mm copper core, with clear silicone jacket









IMPORTANT NOTICE: make sure to use a proper screwdriver, make sure it fits, as the parts are made of brass inside the spark plug caps





Important notice: the wire must be screwed on the spark plug cap, note the screw like object inside the spark plug cap?



Important notice: be careful to not loose the ferrules on the HT leads, these keep the wire from falling out of the coil. Below is an example of ferrules on a pressure fitting, looks familiar?

Hey Ghost, did you ever replace that silly red and white resistor with a nice clean piece of brass welding rod? I've done this with every Japanese motorcycle I have ever owned. No, it does not mess-up your C.D. ignition.

Cheers,

Bill

[Triple Jim]

Originally Posted by Ram Jet

No, it does not mess-up your C.D. ignition.

But it might mess up any onboard aftermarket electronics, like if you're running a Vapor motorcycle computer, etc., you'd have to experiment to know.

Luckily for aftermarket electronics, our 250s do not have CD ignition, which in my experience is more difficult to keep from interfering with electronics than the transistor switched ignitions we have.

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

But it might mess up any onboard aftermarket electronics, like if you're running a Vapor motorcycle computer, etc., you'd have to experiment to know.

Luckily for aftermarket electronics, our 250s do not have CD ignition, which in my experience is more difficult to keep from interfering with electronics than the transistor switched ignitions we have.

I would have sworn the Ninja had CDI ignition. Kawasaki describes it as "Battery and Coil (transistorized)". Thanks. I know only two things about electricity: you have to pay the bill and it will knock you on your butt. I didn't think about the new electronic widgets people carry on their bikes. Well. I don't and the resistors bite the dust on my rides. My Kaw 500 triple and current Honda are/were both CDI ignition with no problem with any electrical components. Ironically, when I first got my Honda I went to change-out the resistors and somebody beat me to it.


It probably doesn't matter one hoot. It just makes me feel better.

Bill

[Triple Jim]

I put a Veypor (not Vapor) computer on my 1972 H2 (magneto CDI) and had to go through quite a few gyrations to keep electrical interference from confusing it. I did manage to do it without changing to resistor caps though.

[USMarine]

Scoring is deep on one side of the wall but
I'm guessing jetting was off, he ran k&n pod filters with 105 jets if that helps? If that's all that's wrong with the engine I still feel like it will be expensive to fix though

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by USMarine

Scoring is deep on one side of the wall but
I'm guessing jetting was off, he ran k&n pod filters with 105 jets if that helps? If that's all that's wrong with the engine I still feel like it will be expensive to fix though

If you are going to stay with pod filters I would switch to UNI foam filters. I stopped using K&Ns in the mid-seventies when I held one filter up to the sunlight and I could see sunlight through two layers of the filter material.

Bill

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

I put a Veypor (not Vapor) computer on my 1972 H2 (magneto CDI) and had to go through quite a few gyrations to keep electrical interference from confusing it. I did manage to do it without changing to resistor caps though.

I had no problem with my 73'. The 72',73' and 74' all had slightly different ignition/charging systems. I guess I was lucky.

Bill

[Triple Jim]

What bikes that you owned were made in those years?

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

What bikes that you owned were made in those years?

I owned a 73' and my best friend owned a 74'. My bike would run on a dead battery (CDI magneto) his 74' wouldn't. I think 72' was the first year for CDI and I don't know much else about the ignition.

If you installed the 500 H1 engine in an EX500 you'd have one hell of a bike - and it would handle. We always referred to the triples as "Flexible Flyers".

Bill

[Triple Jim]

I guess you mean H2s then. All H2s have essentially identical ignition and charging systems. The ignitions were magneto CDI, with two magneto coils in the alternator, one low speed and one high speed coil. The charging system used the other four coils and a shunt regulator. If the '74 wouldn't start with a dead battery, something else was wrong.

Most of the handling problems of H2s, as well as the other triples, were a result of poor maintenance. Once the head bearings and/or swing arm bushings get sloppy, the bikes get flexy. That's really not very different from other bikes of that time. H2s won a lot of production stock races in the '70s, and if they handled as bad as you hear these days, that wouldn't have been possible.

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

I guess you mean H2s then. All H2s have essentially identical ignition and charging systems. The ignitions were magneto CDI, with two magneto coils in the alternator, one low speed and one high speed coil. The charging system used the other four coils and a shunt regulator. If the '74 wouldn't start with a dead battery, something else was wrong.

Most of the handling problems of H2s, as well as the other triples, were a result of poor maintenance. Once the head bearings and/or swing arm bushings get sloppy, the bikes get flexy. That's really not very different from other bikes of that time. H2s won a lot of production stock races in the '70s, and if they handled as bad as you hear these days, that wouldn't have been possible.

Well, no, my bike was the 500cc H1. As far as I know the H2 is the 750cc version. I really couldn't see why Kawasaki would not use the same ignition system on both the H1 and H2 since they seem to be a pretty frugal company.

Yeah, they had a low speed coil and a high speed. They also had rather expensive A and B "black boxes" to control low and high speed ignition. One of my "black boxes" crapped-out on me - the low speed. Fortunately is was on a pretty long and steep hill. I was able to bump start the bike getting the revs up to run on the high speed coil to get home. I think I had to keep the R's above 3,000 or walk home. I replaced my plastic swing arm bushings with some bronze plumbing pieces from the hardware store. It didn't help much. I would have purchased an H2 but it had a worse reputation for ill handling than the H1. I wish I had my 07' 250 and one just like it with a 500 triple engine in it. Now there's a winter project for you. Hey, it might work if you loose most of the lower fairing. I don't think it would increase the curb weight at all. Hmmm. Hell, I'm too old to think about projects like that.

Bill

[Triple Jim]

I don't want to continue the hijack, but if you're interested in the four different versions of the H1 ignition systems I can go into it offline. I manufacture replacements for all the various CDIs for triples: www.lakeserv.net

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

I don't want to continue the hijack, but if you're interested in the four different versions of the H1 ignition systems I can go into it offline. I manufacture replacements for all the various CDIs for triples: www.lakeserv.net

Yeah, apologies to our friend Nick. Hey Nick, do you know how the Marines got the nickname "leatherneck"? I can't tell you about "Jarhead" - but I don't like it anyway.

I'll check out your website Jim.

Cheers,

Bill

[USMarine]

It's alright guys😄 And yes the term leatherneck was used for the Marines who wore leather collars to protect them from sword slashes

I don't care for the pod filters so for now I just have to check out the rest of the engine and see if everything else is good. At that point determine if it's cost effective to rebuild it

[Ram Jet]

Originally Posted by USMarine

It's alright guys�� And yes the term leatherneck was used for the Marines who wore leather collars to protect them from sword slashes

I don't care for the pod filters so for now I just have to check out the rest of the engine and see if everything else is good. At that point determine if it's cost effective to rebuild it

Checking eBay I found;

item # 172381750941 44.99 + free ship (I'd buy this one)
# 281921506794 59.99 + free ship
# 201710293193 39.95 + 18.25 ship

If your crank, rods and cylinder head are serviceable I would rebuild.

Good luck,

Bill

Yeah, Pres. Jefferson had enough of ships being hijacked (like this web posting) by Barbary Pirates and dispatched, who else, the U.S. Marines to kick their ass ("to the shores of Tripoli"). It's not much different today is it? So they incorporated a leather collars into their uniforms to protect their neck against the pirate's cutlass swords. A+ Nick!