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Old July 15th, 2014, 07:47 PM   #41
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would you be able to tell me if the connectors are the same on the stators and the crank position sensor between the 250 and 300?
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Old July 16th, 2014, 02:21 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garth285 View Post
would you be able to tell me if the connectors are the same on the stators and the crank position sensor between the 250 and 300?
I have a 2010 motor and cannot tell your exactly if the 2008s had slightly different plugs unless it came from a Pregen?

but either way, the cranks sensor plug is the same but the charging plugs are different. Nothing a simple cut and splice won't fix. You'll need a wiring diagram as the colors changed between the generation and still 3 wires.
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Old July 16th, 2014, 02:25 PM   #43
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the stator connector turned sideways somewhere between 09 and 11 but i think the pickup was the same if i remember right.
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Old July 16th, 2014, 02:41 PM   #44
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what about weight figures guys ?
is ther any difference between the 2 rotors/flywheels, pistons(124grams on 250 +6 for the rings) and piston pins(36grams for the 250)
anyone has 300 parts handy to compare ??
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Old July 16th, 2014, 02:42 PM   #45
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Quote:
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the stator connector turned sideways somewhere between 09 and 11 but i think the pickup was the same if i remember right.
Thanks! I have confirmed via Ebay (god I love this place) that the 2011-2012 Stator plugs are the same as the Ninja 300s other than plug color. The 2011-12 are white while the 300s are black.
@abhijitz FYI
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Old July 16th, 2014, 02:49 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micoulisninja View Post
what about weight figures guys ?
is ther any difference between the 2 rotors/flywheels, pistons(124grams on 250 +6 for the rings) and piston pins(36grams for the 250)
anyone has 300 parts handy to compare ??
I forgot to weight my 250 stator and junk before I put it back in the motor. I can weigh the other stuff when I get another scale.
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Old July 16th, 2014, 02:52 PM   #47
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it's the 300's figures I eagerly need... the 250's I can get to anytime... I have blown already a couple of engines apart and still saving most of the (few)pieces that remain intact...
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Old July 16th, 2014, 03:02 PM   #48
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Thanks for the info! I will try to see if the crank position sensor will work first and if not I'll go for a whole stator and CPS but I believe I will be able to make the 250 stator work on the 300 FI parts.

We shall see!
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Old July 18th, 2014, 03:24 AM   #49
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@cuong-nutz and anyone else who might know...
question: can I use the 250's starter gear in the 300 engine along with the 300's starter ? I ordered an engine from Germany with starter but without starter gear (they sell it separetely, every little piece !!) and I was hoping i could save some money by using my 250's on it to get the starter turning...
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Old July 18th, 2014, 04:29 AM   #50
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@cuong-nutz and anyone else who might know...
question: can I use the 250's starter gear in the 300 engine along with the 300's starter ? I ordered an engine from Germany with starter but without starter gear (they sell it separetely, every little piece !!) and I was hoping i could save some money by using my 250's on it to get the starter turning...
Yes you can.
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Old July 18th, 2014, 05:01 AM   #51
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thanks !! you just saved me 80$ ! I owe you one !!
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Old July 18th, 2014, 01:39 PM   #52
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Cuong can you give a little input on the heads seeing as though you have them both in front of you. Do you think the 300 head could be used on the 250 cylinder with the 250 gasket?
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Old July 18th, 2014, 02:23 PM   #53
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Cuong can you give a little input on the heads seeing as though you have them both in front of you. Do you think the 300 head could be used on the 250 cylinder with the 250 gasket?
The 250 gasket will work with the 300 head AS LONG AS YOU ARE USING THE 250 CYLINDER BLOCK.

You could use the 300 headgasket if wanted to on the 250 cylinder block to increase surface area a smidge to help with cooling but it's negligible. One thing for sure is that you don't want to use a 250 gasket with a 300 cylinder block or you'll risk your motor drowning in coolant.

I can't update the original post so maybe @Alex can attach a link to this post.

250 headgasket on 300 head. You will see the scribed mark of the 300 headgasket on the head surface at the lower edge of the 250 gasket where it meets the cam chain area.


250 headgasket on 250 head:


Scribed headgasket marks: 250 left, 300 right


One thing I am still wondering: could the sharp shroud edge inbetween the intake valves cause predetonation? I would think being that it's on the intake side it would be cooler than on the exhaust side.

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Old July 18th, 2014, 02:39 PM   #54
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Not sure what type of link to add? What would it say?
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Old July 18th, 2014, 02:45 PM   #55
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Quote:
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Not sure what type of link to add? What would it say?
In the original post under HEADGASKET section, it would sayWhich headgasket you can use: and link the above thread.

I originally meant to type " You cannot use a 250 headgasket on 300 cylinder block because it will leak coolant" in the original post.

Sorry for the incomplete thought
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Old July 18th, 2014, 03:37 PM   #56
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Quote:
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One thing I am still wondering: could the sharp shroud edge inbetween the intake valves cause predetonation? I would think being that it's on the intake side it would be cooler than on the exhaust side.

I had talked with a couple of old (both in age but most importantly in experience) engine builders that used to prepare small and medium size race engines for the beginning of the 4-stroke era and when I showed them the 250 head one of them laughed... the other got quite angry with my ignorance...
they both told me -more or less- the same thing :
"...You spent so much time, effort and money porting the intake while this thing still has the same awful chamber the eliminator had... if you really want flow through your chamber, less scavenge and negative work on the piston face you have to get rid of those edges and smoothen it out like a bowl...you will lose some compression but you can put it back either by milling it (the head) or by using the zzr250 pistons (which is the cheapest solution for getting higher compression pistons since they have a higher dome) or both if necessary...(of course they added that aftermarket pistons would be even better)"
but the whole point is that if the chamber does not have a good flow through for exhaust fumes to exit with a proper vacuum effect so that they help pump in the next intake mixture wave (and have that "wash off" the exhaust gas remnants during the overlap phase), then both flow AND chamber charge is poor so lots of power is not even produced while the potential is there...
needless to say, all that definetely can (and most probably will) cause predetonation among other unwanted stuff (swirl or tumble blown in pieces before even reaching the piston top, hot and cold spots, weird flame travel etc)some of which I don't remember now and will have to ask them (again) while at the same time will have to listen to them (again) cursing at me...
so this time, when i get my 300 head in hand, instead of growing the ports, I will just take off some sharp edges and grit and work on the inside-the chamber and round the valve seats area to make it more "fluent"...



P.S: I asked around about the notch Cuong-nutz was wondering about (so was I...) and the answer is quite as simple and evident as it looks after all... it is for relieving air pressure under the piston, to move more easily from under the one coming down to the other going up, helping a bit with revving and reducing power losses, just like in the bigger 4-cyl engines....
seems there are many tiny but significant improvements in the 300 engine after all !
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Old July 18th, 2014, 05:15 PM   #57
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Mine got smoothed out between the exhaust valves. Maybe that helped me!
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Old July 23rd, 2014, 03:28 PM   #58
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WATER PUMP DIFFERENCES:

250 impeller vanes have a small surface area but makes up for the lack of surface area by increasing the amount of vanes. This old design reminds me of the ones I replaced in all the trucks and cars I have worked on.

Fast forward onto the next generation--the 300. The 300 has a larger surface area per vane and increases it's impelling efficiency by giving it a curve as well as maximizing its space inside the water pump body.

Swapping the 300 pump onto the 250 will not work as the shaft on the pump is shorter and will not connect with the oil pump. In order to make it work, you would have to weld an extension onto the 250 oil pump shaft or machine a longer oil pump shaft.


250 left, 300 right:


250 pump uses a sealed bearing and the 300 is an open bearing design:


So Vaney.....:
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Old July 24th, 2014, 10:07 AM   #59
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Hey bud, I was just looking at Cam's and I noticed you have not mentioned them.

I did some part number checking and the ninja 250 and 300 have the same intake cam but the exhaust are different part numbers.

Care to share any measurements?
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Old July 24th, 2014, 12:42 PM   #60
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Very interesting pics! Thanks!
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Old July 24th, 2014, 03:39 PM   #61
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Quote:
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Hey bud, I was just looking at Cam's and I noticed you have not mentioned them.

I did some part number checking and the ninja 250 and 300 have the same intake cam but the exhaust are different part numbers.

Care to share any measurements?

CAMSHAFTS:

Camshafts are the same between the two. The part numbers are only to differentiate model type, I suppose. Here's what I pulled off of Cheapcyleparts.com's Fiche:

49118CAMSHAFT-COMP,INTAKE
49118-0742

49118ACAMSHAFT-COMP,EXHAUST
49118-0743

49118CAMSHAFT-COMP,INTAKE
49118-0098 49118-0742

49118ACAMSHAFT-COMP,EXHAUST
49118-0099

Intake camshaft has an extra millimeter of lift vs the exhaust camshaft.
Intake cam measuring ~33.90mm and exhaust came measuring ~32.90mm diameter-wise.

Valve timing per FSM:

250/300 intake
open: 36* BTDC
close: 56* ABDC
duration: 272*

250/300 exhaust
open: 61* BBDC
close: 31* ATDC
duration 272*

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Old July 24th, 2014, 04:02 PM   #62
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Old July 24th, 2014, 04:15 PM   #63
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Stock or exhaust?
exhaust. corrected it.
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Old July 24th, 2014, 06:53 PM   #64
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You sir are awesome, thanks!!!

Do you happen to have any intake cams your looking to sell?
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Old July 26th, 2014, 10:25 AM   #65
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You sir are awesome, thanks!!!

Do you happen to have any intake cams your looking to sell?
Sorry not at the moment.

Found another small difference in the lower cam chain guide. Not sure why the change.

300 top, 250 bottom.



The tensioner left a nice indentation on the 300 top and deformed it. 250 bottom looks fine.
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Old July 26th, 2014, 10:31 AM   #66
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Different manufacturer? I can't imagine any difference in function or wear when their shapes are so similar.
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Old July 26th, 2014, 12:55 PM   #67
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I know why the difference !! so as the part code is different and the price gets different....just like with the exhaust camshaft and several other parts...
that is why I am asking cuong all the time to compare stuff
by the way, I got to tell you... the 250EFI model (since 2008) has the exact same rotor/flywheel with the 300...and the stator of course...
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Old August 29th, 2014, 08:56 AM   #68
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@cuong-nutz you can put as data on first page if you like, no images, sorry...
news are interesting...
I tried parts from my old 250 FI '09 engine on my new '13 300 engine and we have...

1. stator, rotor, rotor sensor are identical for the two and side case from FI 250 fits perfectly on
300 engine, no clearance or other issues...
2. slipper clutch can be put with no clearance issues on 250 engine and 250 side clutch case is a right bolt on the 300 engine, clutch springs are softer on the slipper...
3. 250's water pump can be used on 300 engine if the 250's oil pump axle is used on the 300 oil pump's sprocket and of course (what is more interesting for most) 300's water pump can be used on 250's engine if 300's oil pump axle is used (even better to use the 300 sprocket too which is quite lighter)
that's it so far, will keep updating as I move on with my project...
impressive how much improved, lighter and stronger the 300's components look compared to the 250's even if on the same basis of conception and functionality...
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Old October 7th, 2014, 04:41 AM   #69
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Has anyone tried putting the 300 Stator and stator cover on a 250?

I wouldn't mind having a few more amps. Drained my battery one cold day running a heated jacket on high around the city...
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Old October 7th, 2014, 05:52 AM   #70
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This is a really cool thread I learned a lot thank you OP
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Old October 7th, 2014, 12:55 PM   #71
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Has anyone tried putting the 300 Stator and stator cover on a 250?

I wouldn't mind having a few more amps. Drained my battery one cold day running a heated jacket on high around the city...
?- you might want to try converting all of your lighting to LED. That might be a cheaper way to gain juice. Buying a custom stator or a ninja 300 stator might e a good step too, but I imagine it won't be cheap.

If you are of an engineering mindset you could also convert wasted heat energy into electricity using a the Seebeck Effect.

Thermoelectric modules have gotten very affordable in recent years and a motorcycle wastes considerable heat energy via the radiator and exhaust.

You could quite easily machine a block of aluminum to clamp onto your header pipe then sandwich the thermo electric modules between regular CPU heat syncs

This setup would have ample air cooling and utilize wasted energy.

It is a technology already used commercially in buses and other industrial applications.
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Old October 7th, 2014, 01:15 PM   #72
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If you are of an engineering mindset you could also convert wasted heat energy into electricity using a the Seebeck Effect.

Thermoelectric modules have gotten very affordable in recent years and a motorcycle wastes considerable heat energy via the radiator and exhaust.

You could quite easily machine a block of aluminum to clamp onto your header pipe then sandwich the thermo electric modules between regular CPU heat syncs

This setup would have ample air cooling and utilize wasted energy.

It is a technology already used commercially in buses and other industrial applications.
That is a good project I wonder what I could do with that. I'm going to look into that, could work really well with my XS1100 since that thing pumps out some serious heat.
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Old October 7th, 2014, 01:21 PM   #73
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That is a good project I wonder what I could do with that. I'm going to look into that, could work really well with my XS1100 since that thing pumps out some serious heat.

The efficiency of the thermo electric modules is commonly very low, and the more efficient modules become prohibitively expensive.

Designing and scaling a thermo electrical generation system to your motorcycle would have to take into account a lot of things. Such as typical ambient temperature of the air it is operation in. The temperature gradient between the air and the heat source, The amperage that your motorcycle consumes while operating typically. It could become a useful accessory generation system, but probably wont replace your stator as your primary energy source. It would have the constraints of having to warm up before it generates, producing a limited and finite amount of power( your state produces gobs of extra juice at times and your rectifier sheds it in the form of heat from what I think I understand)

It would make a great project but needs a very specific application.

Also the ceramic modules can be very temperamental and easily broken.

Let me know what Ideas you come up with.
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Old October 7th, 2014, 01:35 PM   #74
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I think it would be cool to power something small like led lights in fairings or accessory led lights stuff that is typically low draw
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Old October 7th, 2014, 01:39 PM   #75
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I think it would be cool to power something small like led lights in fairings or accessory led lights stuff that is typically low draw
Are you saying have a parallel, or separate electrical system dedicated to peripheral devices.
It would be easily done, however impractical.

I have an idea where it could be applied with practical purpose.
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Old October 7th, 2014, 02:01 PM   #76
Rustitution
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Originally Posted by Klondike1020 View Post
Are you saying have a parallel, or separate electrical system dedicated to peripheral devices.
It would be easily done, however impractical.

I have an idea where it could be applied with practical purpose.
what is your idea?
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Old October 7th, 2014, 02:06 PM   #77
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@Rustitution - hypermiling. I Pmed the forum hypermiler about it. I will see what he says.
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Old October 8th, 2014, 06:39 AM   #78
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hypermiling. I Pmed the forum hypermiler about it. I will see what he says.
Cool keep me posted
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Old October 8th, 2014, 10:09 AM   #79
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Cool keep me posted
You want to build a hyper miler? I am down. I sold my old ninjette to Verboten1 so I will have to shop around for a really cheap one.
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Old October 8th, 2014, 10:34 AM   #80
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if this is going to be my commuter I'm all about getting the most per gallon possible. if I want to go fast I have another bike that goes fast
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