The amazing Hulk and Batman begins - Page 4

micoulisninja · May 26th, 2015, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruce71198

Glad you didn't disappear with this project.
I'm eager to see what went wrong with your big bore kit.
I acquired one to do some work with and after machining and modifying the piston decided to avoid the obvious impending failure and not assemble it.
Now I'm researching piston availability from another source to see if I can make this happen.

is yours a 66mm bore ?
cause if it is, the 98-99 zx6 pistons will work fine, I have built a 250 with those ones and has over 10k miles already...piston pins are identical to 250's....

bruce71198 · May 26th, 2015, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by micoulisninja

is yours a 66mm bore ?
cause if it is, the 98-99 zx6 pistons will work fine, I have built a 250 with those ones and has over 10k miles already...piston pins are identical to 250's....

I have a 67mm bore. Is 66mm the stock or overbore size?

micoulisninja · May 26th, 2015, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruce71198

I have a 67mm bore. Is 66mm the stock or overbore size?

66mm is stock for 98-99 zx-6r
68mm is stock for 03-06 zx-6r (636)
67mm is stock 07-08
and FORGED oem 09-12 (which I intend to use myself) and on
pins change a bit but not the OD, just the width... will give more data as long as i have them at hand...

Somchai · May 26th, 2015, 06:18 PM

Hey Nick,

that's nice to see you're back again, I'm very curious about your results

redkid · June 9th, 2015, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by micoulisninja

66mm is stock for 98-99 zx-6r
68mm is stock for 03-06 zx-6r (636)
67mm is stock 07-08
and FORGED oem 09-12 (which I intend to use myself) and on
pins change a bit but not the OD, just the width... will give more data as long as i have them at hand...

so for conclusion, which pin works best with our standard piston?

micoulisninja · June 9th, 2015, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redkid

so for conclusion, which pin works best with our standard piston?

I do not recall mentioning any advice of mine switching piston pins if using stock pistons... you MUST use stock pins with stock pistons...
pin choice is a matter of piston choice, not the opposite...
the info I post is reference only and a writing of my engine build. It does not apply to stock engines... even if using aftermarket pistons (JE, Wiseco etc) they either come with a pin especially designed for them or they recommend use of the stock pin...
all of the pistons mentioned above are ZX-6R pistons, not 250's... but they COULD be used in overbore projects IF someone makes extravagant choices for his own engine and has knowledge of the modifications and measurements that will be necessary to make them work...
@bruce 71198 all YOU need to make it operate reliably are the 300's shorter stock rods and some well measured clearances...

red26 · June 9th, 2015, 04:55 AM

My wiseco were a bit thicker than what you got, so i thought of using a lighter one from another bike. Or maybe skimmed one so it can match the size of stock pin thickness. Is that possible?

micoulisninja · June 9th, 2015, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red26

My wiseco were a bit thicker than what you got, so i thought of using a lighter one from another bike. Or maybe skimmed one so it can match the size of stock pin thickness. Is that possible?

like I said, piston weight, design and rest of characteristics decide piston pin thickness, size and weight... you can try using another pin BUT keep a few things in mind...
the pin must not have play within the piston "casing" horizontally... I do not know how wide the wiseco pin is, if the stock pin fits properly and is lighter you could use that... earlier ZX-6R generations use same pin as 250... the 300 pin is lighter but also narrower, so you cannot use that if your pins almost as wide as stock...
one thing you could do to lighten wiseco pins (if possible and of totally cylindrical shape with same I.D. from one end to the other) is to imitate the stock 250 pins' chamfering, taking off a few grams from each one but be careful not to overdo it... I would not recommend lightening stock 250
pins though... they are shaped and lightened from factory to a spec that would not be safe playing with... if you gave me precise dimensions along with some pics I believe I could give you more detailed advice...

redkid · June 9th, 2015, 07:02 PM

Thanks, i have been considering chamfering the pin by looking at your mods. Last night i measured both pins last night and this was my finding.

Wiseco 47g each
2013 stock Ninja 250 FI 35g each

I am definitely going to use the stock pin

micoulisninja · June 10th, 2015, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redkid

Thanks, i have been considering chamfering the pin by looking at your mods. Last night i measured both pins last night and this was my finding.

Wiseco 47g each
2013 stock Ninja 250 FI 35g each

I am definitely going to use the stock pin

12g more for Wiseco

??
well switching to stock pin will help it rev more freely and stretch rods less, so go ahead if they are same size !

redkid · June 16th, 2015, 04:07 AM

the stock pin is from 2014 Ninja 250, the one with the same looks as Ninja 300. I know Ninja300 have revised piston and pins, so it may not be the same like our 2011 Fi models

i have another question, yesterday as i clean up my cylinder head its hard to turn the camshaft even no chain connected and bucket & shims removed. When i remove the dowel pins for the camshaft cover, it spins easier.i can even spin it using finger.
Can i just remove the dowel, and just install the camshaft cover? this lighten up the camshaft assy

cuong-nutz · June 16th, 2015, 02:18 PM

Yeah, the Wiseco pins are heavy. I am not sure what the thought process was behind it. You need those dowels in place.

micoulisninja · June 16th, 2015, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuong-nutz

You need those dowels in place.

Riverdale · June 17th, 2015, 03:40 PM

X2

Somchai · November 24th, 2015, 02:55 AM

Hi Nick,

long time's gone so let me please ask for some news?

micoulisninja · December 7th, 2015, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Somchai

Hi Nick,

long time's gone so let me please ask for some news?

ready for the final straight at last Roland !! will give you a little teaser...
2009 ZX-6R pistons, pins, conrods in place of the stock lineup... now checking out some details about the head and squish distance...

Somchai · December 7th, 2015, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by micoulisninja

ready for the final straight at last Roland !! will give you a little teaser...
2009 ZX-6R pistons, pins, conrods in place of the stock lineup... now checking out some details about the head and squish distance...

Wow Nick, this is a fantastic message.
I wish you great success

Mohawk · November 8th, 2016, 03:37 PM

Excellent build, top banana, well done that man

I'm doing a 282cc version, using zx6r pistons as per one of your threads I was reading.
Too achieve the 66mm bore, I used a couple of ZZR600 (64mm bore) liners, that I had custum fitted to a spare 250 block. I will lighten the ZX pistons to the same weight as the 250 ones thus avoiding any balance or strain issues.

Just finishing up some other work first to get the bike through annual inspection. Then when the weather gets really crap I'll rebuild it in 282cc guise.

Mohawk · November 20th, 2016, 04:26 PM

So I've been working on ligthening a piston today, got it down from 141.8grams bare to 132.6grams which is still about 10 grams heavier than the stock 250 pistons. Not sure I can take much moer out of it. Problem with alloy is it takes up a lot of space for a gram or two

bruce71198 · November 29th, 2016, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mohawk

Excellent build, top banana, well done that man

I'm doing a 282cc version, using zx6r pistons as per one of your threads I was reading.
Too achieve the 66mm bore, I used a couple of ZZR600 (64mm bore) liners, that I had custum fitted to a spare 250 block. I will lighten the ZX pistons to the same weight as the 250 ones thus avoiding any balance or strain issues.

Just finishing up some other work first to get the bike through annual inspection. Then when the weather gets really crap I'll rebuild it in 282cc guise.

Where do you get ZZR600 liners? Pictures?

Mohawk · November 30th, 2016, 01:27 AM

I just bought a second hand ZZR600 block. It had one damaged bore, so was scrap, so cost peanuts. Had 2 liners pressed out, then fitted to 250 block, then had the 64mm bore taken out to 66mm to suit the ZX6R pistons, that came with another secondhand block.

If you do this with a buddy you can share the parts ! Hardest part is getting a shop to machine the 250 block & fit the new liners. Having done this, I advise turning the bottom of the ZZR liner down to fit a stock base gasket. I need to open the liner holes just a little on mine.

You can buy a cometic head gasket for either old or new gen, with 64 or 66mm bore, but I'll just grind a stock one to size.

The stock bore has the valves slightly offset in the bore, thus intake and exhaust valves have a very close tolerance to the cylinder wall, effectively masking part of the valve. The big bore should flow better than stock due to unmasking these areas & inducing a larger pressure reduction induction pulse due to the increased displacement.

Looks like 130 grams will be as light as I can get the pistons, so may have to limit the maximum RPM a bit. Need to run some numbers to work out maximum load on the rods.

bruce71198 · November 30th, 2016, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mohawk

I just bought a second hand ZZR600 block. It had one damaged bore, so was scrap, so cost peanuts. Had 2 liners pressed out, then fitted to 250 block, then had the 64mm bore taken out to 66mm to suit the ZX6R pistons, that came with another secondhand block.

If you do this with a buddy you can share the parts ! Hardest part is getting a shop to machine the 250 block & fit the new liners. Having done this, I advise turning the bottom of the ZZR liner down to fit a stock base gasket. I need to open the liner holes just a little on mine.

You can buy a cometic head gasket for either old or new gen, with 64 or 66mm bore, but I'll just grind a stock one to size.

The stock bore has the valves slightly offset in the bore, thus intake and exhaust valves have a very close tolerance to the cylinder wall, effectively masking part of the valve. The big bore should flow better than stock due to unmasking these areas & inducing a larger pressure reduction induction pulse due to the increased displacement.

Looks like 130 grams will be as light as I can get the pistons, so may have to limit the maximum RPM a bit. Need to run some numbers to work out maximum load on the rods.

We don't have a ZZR in the States, is this the equivalent of the ZX6? What year?

Mohawk · December 1st, 2016, 01:08 AM

Well you do have the ZZR600, but for some reason Kawasaki USA sold it as the ZX6 in the USA, where as the rest of the world had two bikes, the ZX6D or E, see here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_ZZR600 1990-2008

Where as to everywhere else the ZX6R was introduced in 1995-to present, see here
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_Ninja_ZX-6R

bruce71198 · December 1st, 2016, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mohawk

Well you do have the ZZR600, but for some reason Kawasaki USA sold it as the ZX6 in the USA, where as the rest of the world had two bikes, the ZX6D or E, see here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_ZZR600 1990-2008

Where as to everywhere else the ZX6R was introduced in 1995-to present, see here
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_Ninja_ZX-6R

I think I found the pieces I need. The ZX6 up to 2004 uses the press in liners like the 250, 2005 and up has the nikasil aluminum cylinder blocks.

Mohawk · December 6th, 2016, 05:37 AM

Hey Micoulisninja, how goes the bike a year down the line ?

Mohawk · May 25th, 2018, 03:29 PM

Well having done everything else to the bike I never got round to fitting the big bore. But I,m back on the wagon & just been finishing the pistons, now down to 130.3grams which is as light as they can be. I’ve reduced them to slipper pistons by cutting off & smoothing the the anti can’t extensions fore & aft. If anyone’s interested they weigh 2,5grams combined.

So I need to get round to stripping the engine next. Hope to get this done over the next few weeks.

More when I have it.

June 16th, 2015, 02:18 PM	#132
cuong-nutz RIP Alex Name: Cuong Location: Houston, TX Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '10 250r, '09 265r Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 2	Yeah, the Wiseco pins are heavy. I am not sure what the thought process was behind it. You need those dowels in place. __________________________________________________ HalfFast Racing Team Serving Greater Houston Area Riders:WFO Riders MotoHouston HPC CMRA Ride Smart Fastline Lone Star Track Days

November 8th, 2016, 03:37 PM	#138
Mohawk ninjette.org guru Name: Chris Location: Bristol, UK Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): ZZR250, VFR800 Posts: 478	Excellent build, top banana, well done that man I'm doing a 282cc version, using zx6r pistons as per one of your threads I was reading. Too achieve the 66mm bore, I used a couple of ZZR600 (64mm bore) liners, that I had custum fitted to a spare 250 block. I will lighten the ZX pistons to the same weight as the 250 ones thus avoiding any balance or strain issues. Just finishing up some other work first to get the bike through annual inspection. Then when the weather gets really crap I'll rebuild it in 282cc guise. Last futzed with by Mohawk; November 20th, 2016 at 04:23 PM.

November 20th, 2016, 04:26 PM	#139
Mohawk ninjette.org guru Name: Chris Location: Bristol, UK Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): ZZR250, VFR800 Posts: 478	So I've been working on ligthening a piston today, got it down from 141.8grams bare to 132.6grams which is still about 10 grams heavier than the stock 250 pistons. Not sure I can take much moer out of it. Problem with alloy is it takes up a lot of space for a gram or two Last futzed with by Mohawk; November 21st, 2016 at 03:11 AM.

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May 26th, 2015, 06:18 PM	#124
Somchai Freedom for Germany Location: This World Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R-FI Posts: A lot.	Hey Nick, that's nice to see you're back again, I'm very curious about your results

June 9th, 2015, 04:55 AM	#127
red26 ninjette.org member Name: red Location: KL, Malaysia Join Date: Apr 2013 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R, GSXR600 K4, KX250F,NSR150SP, Yamaha TZM150 Posts: 68	My wiseco were a bit thicker than what you got, so i thought of using a lighter one from another bike. Or maybe skimmed one so it can match the size of stock pin thickness. Is that possible?

June 9th, 2015, 07:02 PM	#129
redkid ninjette.org member Name: red Location: KL, Malaysia Join Date: Nov 2011 Motorcycle(s): ninja 250r Posts: 34	Thanks, i have been considering chamfering the pin by looking at your mods. Last night i measured both pins last night and this was my finding. Wiseco 47g each 2013 stock Ninja 250 FI 35g each I am definitely going to use the stock pin

June 16th, 2015, 04:07 AM	#131
redkid ninjette.org member Name: red Location: KL, Malaysia Join Date: Nov 2011 Motorcycle(s): ninja 250r Posts: 34	the stock pin is from 2014 Ninja 250, the one with the same looks as Ninja 300. I know Ninja300 have revised piston and pins, so it may not be the same like our 2011 Fi models i have another question, yesterday as i clean up my cylinder head its hard to turn the camshaft even no chain connected and bucket & shims removed. When i remove the dowel pins for the camshaft cover, it spins easier.i can even spin it using finger. Can i just remove the dowel, and just install the camshaft cover? this lighten up the camshaft assy

June 17th, 2015, 03:40 PM	#134
Riverdale ninjette.org member Name: Brandon Location: Kansas Join Date: Aug 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2009 250r. 1983 BMW r100rt Posts: 38	X2

November 24th, 2015, 02:55 AM	#135
Somchai Freedom for Germany Location: This World Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R-FI Posts: A lot.	Hi Nick, long time's gone so let me please ask for some news?

November 30th, 2016, 01:27 AM	#141
Mohawk ninjette.org guru Name: Chris Location: Bristol, UK Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): ZZR250, VFR800 Posts: 478	I just bought a second hand ZZR600 block. It had one damaged bore, so was scrap, so cost peanuts. Had 2 liners pressed out, then fitted to 250 block, then had the 64mm bore taken out to 66mm to suit the ZX6R pistons, that came with another secondhand block. If you do this with a buddy you can share the parts ! Hardest part is getting a shop to machine the 250 block & fit the new liners. Having done this, I advise turning the bottom of the ZZR liner down to fit a stock base gasket. I need to open the liner holes just a little on mine. You can buy a cometic head gasket for either old or new gen, with 64 or 66mm bore, but I'll just grind a stock one to size. The stock bore has the valves slightly offset in the bore, thus intake and exhaust valves have a very close tolerance to the cylinder wall, effectively masking part of the valve. The big bore should flow better than stock due to unmasking these areas & inducing a larger pressure reduction induction pulse due to the increased displacement. Looks like 130 grams will be as light as I can get the pistons, so may have to limit the maximum RPM a bit. Need to run some numbers to work out maximum load on the rods.

December 1st, 2016, 01:08 AM	#143
Mohawk ninjette.org guru Name: Chris Location: Bristol, UK Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): ZZR250, VFR800 Posts: 478	Well you do have the ZZR600, but for some reason Kawasaki USA sold it as the ZX6 in the USA, where as the rest of the world had two bikes, the ZX6D or E, see here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_ZZR600 1990-2008 Where as to everywhere else the ZX6R was introduced in 1995-to present, see here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_Ninja_ZX-6R

December 6th, 2016, 05:37 AM	#145
Mohawk ninjette.org guru Name: Chris Location: Bristol, UK Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): ZZR250, VFR800 Posts: 478	Hey Micoulisninja, how goes the bike a year down the line ?

May 25th, 2018, 03:29 PM	#146
Mohawk ninjette.org guru Name: Chris Location: Bristol, UK Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): ZZR250, VFR800 Posts: 478	Well having done everything else to the bike I never got round to fitting the big bore. But I,m back on the wagon & just been finishing the pistons, now down to 130.3grams which is as light as they can be. I’ve reduced them to slipper pistons by cutting off & smoothing the the anti can’t extensions fore & aft. If anyone’s interested they weigh 2,5grams combined. So I need to get round to stripping the engine next. Hope to get this done over the next few weeks. More when I have it.