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Old July 29th, 2019, 02:37 PM   #1
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Go faster - max lean angle on front tire

I own 250R since 2008. For the last two years I am taking it to the track. Based on this forum I also made a few basic modifications which dramatically improved track time/fun. So big thanks to the ninjette.org for the available knowledge.

But now I have a question that I cannot find in any of the forum posts here.

The thing is that when I ride quite hard on the small tracks, it happens that I lose the front grip. Front of the bike is shaking quite intense, its even hard to save the bike. Was not sure if the front end is overloaded or unloaded (body position), but from the tyre wear it looks like I reached maximum lean angle on the front tire and am not event close to the max lean angle on the rear tire. Check the photo of both tires in the attachment. Click it and zoom it. My opinion is that the bike can handle more, but something is wrong with a setup or body position.

I am running original dimension on front(110) and a bit bigger on the rear(140). I picked this dimension because I read that a lot of people racing the 250R use this dimension. And a word about the body position: this happens when I am not sitting, so its a knee down situation, body is aligned a bit to the front. Like you would like to put an elbow down, but without putting it down actually. Yeah, description is funny, hope you get it.

So the question is if you guys racing this machine had similar issues with an unused rear tire? Is it normal behaviour for this tire combo (110 front and 140 rear)? If not, do you think that the problem is body position or bad setup? How to get more from the bike?

Bike has a bit shorter wheelbase than standard (jack-up kit: 30mm = 1.2 inches). I also use lower woodcraft clip-ons, higher rear sets and stiffer fork springs.
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Old February 20th, 2020, 10:38 PM   #2
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Still got the bike. The tire combo wear pattern is normal. You will never get to the edge of the rear unless you are doing a gnarly low side since the tire is being pinched on a narrow wheel. You may be over exaggerating your body position putting more weight up front than needed or leaning more than necessary.
Videos of you riding help for critique.
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Old February 21st, 2020, 01:07 AM   #3
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You need wider 17x4.0” rear wheel from Ninja 300 to reach edge of rear tyre. Also losing front-end first is common symptom of having bigger tyre in back. It still has grip when you’ve reach limit of front.
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Old February 22nd, 2020, 09:31 AM   #4
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Question

Are there any benefits to going to the 4 inch tire of the 300? I went with the Michelin RS 110 front and 140 rear. The rear does look much bigger than the stock 130. I plan on having the suspension set up correctly at the track. I have the Race Tech .90 springs with a heavier weight fork oil with pre load adjusters. The rear has the stock shock for now. Also have clip ons which lowers the front.
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Old February 23rd, 2020, 06:51 PM   #5
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If you want to get maximum grip out of 140 tyre, you must use 4.0" wheel. Otherwise tyre-profile will be pinched and more rounded than front. Meaning when you've reached edge of front, there's still unused rubber at edge of back. You're only using 130 of 140mm tyre and only getting 130mm worth of grip anyway.

Pinched rear tyre causes nervous , yet slower turn-in with unpredictable handling. This is why many, many 400 racers go down from stock 150 to 140 rear tyre. Better handling and more grip. Kawi dropped ball and didn't spec 4.5" rear rim which is better for 150 tyre. Using 4.0" rim just doesn't work well at track for performance with 150 tyre.

In both these 300 & 400 examples, it's best to use optimum tyre-size for rims you have. In our AFM races, fastest 250s use 90/120 tyres for factory wheels.
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Old February 23rd, 2020, 08:50 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
If you want to get maximum grip out of 140 tyre, you must use 4.0" wheel. Otherwise tyre-profile will be pinched and more rounded than front. Meaning when you've reached edge of front, there's still unused rubber at edge of back. You're only using 130 of 140mm tyre and only getting 130mm worth of grip anyway.

Pinched rear tyre causes nervous , yet slower turn-in with unpredictable handling. This is why many, many 400 racers go down from stock 150 to 140 rear tyre. Better handling and more grip. Kawi dropped ball and didn't spec 4.5" rear rim which is better for 150 tyre. Using 4.0" rim just doesn't work well at track for performance with 150 tyre.

In both these 300 & 400 examples, it's best to use optimum tyre-size for rims you have. In our AFM races, fastest 250s use 90/120 tyres for factory wheels.
Guess I will be getting a 4 inch used 300 rim for my 250! I do see them for 100 and less on eBay. I was planning on getting a 140 for my 400 when the 150 wears out. I am pretty much on the edge of the front 110 and rear 150 on the 400. I havenít noticed any handling issues yet, but I am no where near the top in the race series that I do. The price for the Michelin Cup I am going with next is the same for the 140 and 150.
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Old February 24th, 2020, 03:51 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
If you want to get maximum grip out of 140 tyre, you must use 4.0" wheel. Otherwise tyre-profile will be pinched and more rounded than front. Meaning when you've reached edge of front, there's still unused rubber at edge of back. You're only using 130 of 140mm tyre and only getting 130mm worth of grip anyway.

Pinched rear tyre causes nervous , yet slower turn-in with unpredictable handling. This is why many, many 400 racers go down from stock 150 to 140 rear tyre. Better handling and more grip. Kawi dropped ball and didn't spec 4.5" rear rim which is better for 150 tyre. Using 4.0" rim just doesn't work well at track for performance with 150 tyre.

In both these 300 & 400 examples, it's best to use optimum tyre-size for rims you have. In our AFM races, fastest 250s use 90/120 tyres for factory wheels.

120 tires are a nice idea Never taught about it. I was still thinking about the thing you proposed last year, so to soften the front and put wider rubber (front and back). remember?:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...47#post1254647


In your AFM races, they run the stock dimension on the front?
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Old February 24th, 2020, 06:42 PM   #8
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Why don't you just get a 130 tire?
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Old February 24th, 2020, 08:07 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Ralgha View Post
Why don't you just get a 130 tire?
I donít see any sport/race tires in the 130 rear size. I have a brand new Michelin RS 140 now on the rear. I see many 4 inch 300 rear tires on eBay for less than 100 bucks.
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Old February 25th, 2020, 12:10 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
If you want to get maximum grip out of 140 tyre, you must use 4.0" wheel. Otherwise tyre-profile will be pinched and more rounded than front. Meaning when you've reached edge of front, there's still unused rubber at edge of back. You're only using 130 of 140mm tyre and only getting 130mm worth of grip anyway.

Pinched rear tyre causes nervous , yet slower turn-in with unpredictable handling. This is why many, many 400 racers go down from stock 150 to 140 rear tyre. Better handling and more grip. Kawi dropped ball and didn't spec 4.5" rear rim which is better for 150 tyre. Using 4.0" rim just doesn't work well at track for performance with 150 tyre.

In both these 300 & 400 examples, it's best to use optimum tyre-size for rims you have. In our AFM races, fastest 250s use 90/120 tyres for factory wheels.
Never taught about the 120 rubber. But yeah, makes sense. I was thinking about softer front-end and wider rubber. The thing you suggested last year. BTW: how is the front-end behaving under heavy braking?

About your AFM races... are they running stock front tire?
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Old February 26th, 2020, 08:47 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by JFMNINJA400 View Post
I don’t see any sport/race tires in the 130 rear size. I have a brand new Michelin RS 140 now on the rear. I see many 4 inch 300 rear tires on eBay for less than 100 bucks.
Pirelli Sport Demon are very popular sticky tires in stock newgen sizes.
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Old February 26th, 2020, 09:19 AM   #12
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Pirelli Sport Demon are very popular sticky tires in stock newgen sizes.
Thanks but, thatís not a track tire, itís a bias ply tire. I have seen a few 130 size rear tires on EBAY, but they all were bias ply tires. I have ridden on some nice twisties with the Michelin RS 140 rear and pushed semi hard and the rear stuck like glue. I will most likely be riding the 250 coaching in the beginners group. At that pace I am sure I wonít have any issues. Going with the 4 inch 300 rear rim is cheaper than buying a brand new tire since the RS rear has maybe 100 miles.
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Old February 26th, 2020, 12:09 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by mitchman View Post
Never taught about the 120 rubber. But yeah, makes sense. I was thinking about softer front-end and wider rubber. The thing you suggested last year. BTW: how is the front-end behaving under heavy braking?

About your AFM races... are they running stock front tire?
Several years ago, AFM changed rules to allow slicks in production/stock classes. So no more compromises with DOT treaded tyres needed. Fastest 250 guys are using Moto3 slicks (lighter weight and more grip than stock):
https://motorcycleracetires.com/moto...p-moto3-tires/
Or V02 https://www.bridgestone.com/products.../detail/pr150/

These are extremely responsive; just think about turning and it's already leaned over! I just couldn't justify buying tyres every other weekend, so I stuck with what MotoAM JR-cup is using; Alpha 13-SP and Q3+ that I could get for $100/set. These are only sec or 2 off from race-slicks, but lasts an entire season! I'm still many seconds off those JR-cup guys, so I doubt tyres are holding me back.

I gotta get more practice and training in. Particularly learning feel of tyres sliding, which is much, much easier to pick up with non-racing tyres, because they let go much, much more progressively. A lot of people make mistake of moving up to racing-slicks too soon before they learn how to manage slides. Racing-tyres have much more sharp-transition between grip to no-grip and you don't get much signal; they stick one moment, and then next, you're on ground!

BTW - I was only thinking stickier front-tyre to make up for using 150 rear (Dunlop monopoly refused to sell me Alpha 13-SP in 130mm size, even though it's made). Now that more track tyres are available in 140, I'm going to use that instead.


Front-end works fine under braking. Biggest issue I’m working on is calming down back tyre chatter when it starts lifting. I guess I’ll have to squeeze clutch as well when braking.

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; February 27th, 2020 at 09:44 PM.
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Old February 28th, 2020, 03:40 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchman View Post


The thing is that when I ride quite hard on the small tracks, it happens that I lose the front grip. Front of the bike is shaking quite intense, its even hard to save the bike. Was not sure if the front end is overloaded or unloaded (body position), but from the tyre wear it looks like I reached maximum lean angle on the front tire and am not event close to the max lean angle on the rear tire.

I am running original dimension on front(110) and a bit bigger on the rear(140). I picked this dimension because I read that a lot of people racing the 250R use this dimension. And a word about the body position: this happens when I am not sitting, so its a knee down situation, body is aligned a bit to the front. Like you would like to put an elbow down, but without putting it down actually. Yeah, description is funny, hope you get it.

So the question is if you guys racing this machine had similar issues with an unused rear tire? Is it normal behaviour for this tire combo (110 front and 140 rear)? If not, do you think that the problem is body position or bad setup? How to get more from the bike?


I'm running a pre-gen with new-gen wheels (so I could get away from the 16" wheels), 110-70 front 140-70 rear, Bridgestone RS-10. It could be the brand or the model tire you are using, they have different profiles. Or it may be that your riding on "small" tracks, the tracks I ride are both about 2.5 miles with corner speeds from around 40 mph to a little over 90 mph. Could also be your riding style, I am normally at or close to full throttle from the apex on.

DSCF0002.jpg

front has a little left to go



DSCF0001.jpg

rear is at the edge, but has never let go on a clean track
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Old March 8th, 2020, 06:33 PM   #15
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we talked alot of mechanical reasons. how about tecnique. riding on the front versus the rear? overhanded trail braking deep into the turns, could be many reasons, poster up top requesting video was right on in my opinion.
heavy load on the front and not comming off brakes easy will unload to fast for the front.
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Old March 13th, 2020, 07:54 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post

Pinched rear tyre causes nervous , yet slower turn-in with unpredictable handling. This is why many, many 400 racers go down from stock 150 to 140 rear tyre. Better handling and more grip. Kawi dropped ball and didn't spec 4.5" rear rim which is better for 150 tyre. Using 4.0" rim just doesn't work well at track for performance with 150 tyre.

In both these 300 & 400 examples, it's best to use optimum tyre-size for rims you have. In our AFM races, fastest 250s use 90/120 tyres for factory wheels.
Danno, you da man
I came here to see if I could go to a 140 rear and this was the second post I clicked on! I have heard it said, but wanted some varification, and I got it
I sort of think Kawasaki went with the 150 for vanity rather than functionóI cant put my finger on it, but the combo feels a little odd. Not bad, I just thought the 140 with taller sidewall might be better. This might
show, sometimes less is more
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Old March 22nd, 2020, 03:45 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Z1R rider View Post
I'm running a pre-gen with new-gen wheels (so I could get away from the 16" wheels), 110-70 front 140-70 rear, Bridgestone RS-10. It could be the brand or the model tire you are using, they have different profiles. Or it may be that your riding on "small" tracks, the tracks I ride are both about 2.5 miles with corner speeds from around 40 mph to a little over 90 mph. Could also be your riding style, I am normally at or close to full throttle from the apex on.

front has a little left to go

rear is at the edge, but has never let go on a clean track
You can see that 110 front tyre has taken more load (probably from trail-braking).



than 140 rear tyre, which has more even and less loaded wear.



With my more lopsided 110/150 Alpha 13-SP combo, due to Dunlop dealer monopoly refusing to sell me 130 or 140 rears, front tyre is easily overloaded. At limit, it's cooked and overheated all way to edge. Balls on edge is rubber that's scraped from centre to edge as tyre is sliding. It's so hot it even picks up bits and pieces off track on way back to pits!



Meanwhile rear 150 tyre is much calmer and cooler. Even with double Ninjette's power, I can't break rear-end loose when leaned over. Gently rolling on throttle or whacking it open just causes smaller front-tyre to slide; back-end glued securely in place.



I'm going down to 140 rear next and may even get 3.5" front wheel to run 120 tyre.

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Old March 23rd, 2020, 03:59 PM   #18
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Bikes handle better with similar width tyres. Wide rear tyres were added to allow powerful bikes to deliver grip & the look became a fad. Check your bicycle for an example.
A big difference in width & profile leads to a wobble couple. When at the right speed & lean angle it will either improve the turn, or at the wrong speed/lean make it worse!

And as previously said, fitting the wrong size tyre to a rim does not help.

One thing to try, is practice loosening your grip on the bars & feel how the bike turns. Lots of people counter steer went lent over when there is no need to, the wheels will find their own balance point in a corner & often washouts are caused by inappropriate counter steering.
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Old March 28th, 2020, 08:47 AM   #19
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This is a classic example of; ask 10 different people a question and get 10 different answers. Has anyone considered the 1.5" raise in rear ride height?
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Old March 28th, 2020, 11:05 AM   #20
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Yeah the joy of opinions. Mine is a ZZR250 so possibly similar geometry that the new gen.
But I added KR1-S front & rear with the forks converted to cartridges. The front wheel came back just over an inch but the swingarm is an inch longer, plus I fitted an Ohlins rear shock from a new gen, that raised the rear about 2”. The handling was good before, but now it’s amazing, it could do with another 30hp to take advantage of its handling. There is more weight over the front end & it steers like it’s on rails.
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Old March 28th, 2020, 05:39 PM   #21
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This is a classic example of; ask 10 different people a question and get 10 different answers. Has anyone considered the 1.5" raise in rear ride height?
Yup, but this actually doesn't change weight distributing or tyre-loading much. Try weighing bike before and after this mod.

What does change is rake-angle from 26-degrees on new-gen to 24.5-degrees. Which significantly improves turn-in response. However, at steady-cornering at max-cornering , that doesn't change tyre-loading much.
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Old April 2nd, 2020, 08:11 AM   #22
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Thumbs up

Since track season is on hold for awhile, I will be ordering the 4 inch rim from a 300 for my 250. I will have the shop swap the current tire which is a 140 to the 4 inch rim. I have a 150 on my 400 and just about to the edge on it. I will be going with the 140 as well when the 150 wears out.
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Old April 8th, 2020, 02:49 PM   #23
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Quote:
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Yup, but this actually doesn't change weight distributing or tyre-loading much. Try weighing bike before and after this mod.

What does change is rake-angle from 26-degrees on new-gen to 24.5-degrees. Which significantly improves turn-in response. However, at steady-cornering at max-cornering , that doesn't change tyre-loading much.
Ill put in my $.02 just to add to the confusion. My question about the rear raise was directed at the beahavior of the front tire and his consern of the chattering before losing it. Taking that much rake out will exasperate that condition tremendously. In addition to messing with the front, that much raise will put his swing arm angle in never never land. Im not going to say either will improve his chicken strip issue on the back but it will certainly mess with his head and make him think it cant lean any farther.
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Old April 9th, 2020, 04:26 PM   #24
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Ill put in my $.02 just to add to the confusion. My question about the rear raise was directed at the beahavior of the front tire and his consern of the chattering before losing it. Taking that much rake out will exasperate that condition tremendously. In addition to messing with the front, that much raise will put his swing arm angle in never never land. Im not going to say either will improve his chicken strip issue on the back but it will certainly mess with his head and make him think it cant lean any farther.
Ah yes, that makes more sense, thanks! As many mentioned, there's more to it than just equipment. It takes someone with as much experience and skill as you to juggle both variables and make sense of it. Typically ends up being some combination of both. But it's very easy to pin it all on equipment..
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Old April 10th, 2020, 02:45 AM   #25
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