March 14th, 2016, 12:53 PM | #1 |
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Bike Hesitates to Start Without Throttle Input
Hi All,
Some background. Have a 2012 (11k miles). It sat in a garage for about 2 years with stabil in it, and was started once every two weeks, for the most part, but towards the end of that stint, not at all. It was just delivered to my new residence, and did not want to start. It turned over, but nothing. I finally got it started after a few minutes with a lot of throttle input. Of course, it ran like crap, so I added sea foam and it has run great since then. It also idles just fine once it warms up. I've put in about 150 miles with good performance. However, if I've not ridden for a day, it will not fire up without a lot of throttle input, even with full choke. Again, once it warms up, it runs just fine. No issues at all. Also, if I've been riding and then stop for gas, it fires right back up as long as it's warm. So, I'm wondering, is this: A) Battery issue? Doesn't seem like it since it starts when I use throttle, so it seems more like a B) Fueling Issues C) Carb issue? Any insight greatly appreciated. Thanks! |
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March 14th, 2016, 12:57 PM | #2 |
The Corner Whisperer
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Welcome Ryan!
Hard cold starting, but easy warm starting can be many things but here are a few ideas. idle rpms out of adjustment idle circuit needs cleaning idle mix screws out of adjustment airbox/snorkle obstructions poor gas quality/contaminated values need to be adjusted improper jetting Any mods to the bike? Exhaust or airbox?
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March 14th, 2016, 01:03 PM | #3 | |
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Quote:
I added a Leo Vince slip-on. When I lived in AZ, I did not have any issues. The bike always started just fine. I then moved to PA and the bike rode terribly. Bogged down and felt as if I was running at least 30% under power. And it ran very, very hot. So, naturally, I thought I definitely needed a rejet. But, I was no longer able to ride, so the bike just sat. Then I moved to NC, and I have not any of those issues. Now I just have a hard time getting her started. I got the valves checked at 10k miles, and they said there were in spec. Now, whether or not they actually did the requested work is another question, but I used them often and they seemed honest. Pretty sure I've run all of the stale gas out of the tank in the last 150 or so miles. I will search for threads related to the other issues you mentioned. Thank you again! Ryan |
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March 14th, 2016, 01:25 PM | #4 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
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I would pop out a plug and check the color, sounds kinda lean. Even though a slip on doesn't require a full rejet (a couple of shims normally do just fine), it doesn't hurt to check and only takes a couple of minutes. Whitish color = lean, blackish color = okish to rich, you're looking for a nice really, really dark brown.
Check that snorkle area first and make sure it's clean and clear. After 2yrs of sitting, you may have a nice clog in there.
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March 14th, 2016, 03:16 PM | #5 | |
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Quote:
Here are some pictures of one of the plugs: http://imgur.com/a/K9gT9 |
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March 14th, 2016, 08:42 PM | #6 | |
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Quote:
The gap of the last picture is excessive. Here is a guide: http://www.dansmc.com/sparkplugs1.htm http://www.dansmc.com/spark_plugs/sp...s_catalog.html
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March 15th, 2016, 06:46 AM | #7 |
Rev Limiter
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The last photo of the plug looks like it wasn't fully tightened down.
I would completely drain the tank to remove any condensation build-up that may have accumulated. Condensation/water is not going anywhere unless you run the tank dry, so it's best to just drain it. I'd also drain the floatbowls and look at what comes out. Have you tried backing the choke off some while cranking? It could be that it's getting more fuel from the enrichener (choke) than it needs. Needing to open the throttle to get it to start could mean it needs more air. Air filter is in good shape? I'd confirm that you have a good battery. You should see 12.7V or more after sitting at least a few hours. A low battery can give you odd problems as well. Is it dripping anything? If it were dripping gas from the carbs the fuel level in the bowls may be too low until you have done some cranking to build vacuum to the petcock and start fuel flowing. |
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March 15th, 2016, 07:18 AM | #8 | |
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Quote:
Thanks for the reply. Not certain I follow. You're saying I may have too hot of a plug in there? I think I'm just going to replace both for good measure. |
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March 15th, 2016, 07:24 AM | #9 | |||||
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Quote:
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I did start the bike without the filter in, momentarily, and it did seem to start up with more ease. Quote:
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I will look into all of this. Thanks for your reply! |
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March 15th, 2016, 07:50 AM | #10 |
Rev Limiter
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Did you oil the filter after you cleaned it? Too much oil can reduce the airflow to the point that it causes running problems.
If it starts better without a filter it's telling you it isn't getting enough air, or too much fuel, with the filter in place. This section has some info on draining the tank and carbs, plus a lot more - http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Intake |
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March 15th, 2016, 07:52 AM | #11 | |
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Quote:
So, it sounds as if it's not getting enough air. What are the main culprits, if that's the case? Great, I'll take a look at those resources. Thank you! |
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March 15th, 2016, 09:29 AM | #12 | |
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Quote:
What gas are you using? How old is it? High octane gas can make starting more difficult. Gas with ethanol doesn't last as long as gas without, and can collect excess water even at the station. |
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March 15th, 2016, 02:40 PM | #13 | |
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Quote:
If you are installing new plugs, there is no need to worry about that: they come properly calibrated, regarding that distance. That plug has been burning a reach mix (maybe too high fuel level inside that carb's bowl or air restrictions or stuck-open choke) or not firing at all. The plug of the first pictures looks like it has been burning a lean mix (maybe clogged jets o damaged rubber diaphragm). I agree with jkv45's posts above. It will eventually start up, but several things must be OK: - High voltage to each plug (hence, the need of a battery with abundant juice to crank for many minutes). - Enough air. - Enough fuel, but not too much (petcock, vacuum, filters, floats level. - Enough compression (good rings and valves that completely seat and seal at the proper times).
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March 16th, 2016, 08:41 AM | #14 | |
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March 16th, 2016, 08:43 AM | #15 | |
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Quote:
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March 16th, 2016, 08:45 AM | #16 |
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Instead of just measuring the battery, try to jump it with a car battery while the car is off. That is the best way to assure that the battery is not the culprit.
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March 16th, 2016, 08:45 AM | #17 |
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March 16th, 2016, 09:09 AM | #18 | |
Rev Limiter
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Quote:
No matter what you do, it's not going to run right with bad gas. Adding fresh to old gas and a fuel system cleaner isn't going to do it. I've used year old gas that was stabilized, and it worked ok, but if you are troubleshooting it's not worth risking. Because the tank was low, condensation is also a concern. |
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March 16th, 2016, 01:10 PM | #19 | |
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March 16th, 2016, 02:06 PM | #20 |
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Quick question: how much fuel is typically in the bowls? I went to drain them to see the quality of gas, and it's fine, but I feel like i've drained at least 12oz, and there is no sign of it stopping.
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March 16th, 2016, 02:21 PM | #21 | |
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Quote:
It's just the safest first step, if you think the gas may be in question, to remove all of it before getting too carried away. |
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March 16th, 2016, 02:23 PM | #22 | |
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Quote:
That would suggest the petcock is not shutting off fuel flow like it should when the engine is off (no vacuum to the petcock). |
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March 16th, 2016, 02:32 PM | #23 | |
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Quote:
Forgive my ignorance, this is the first time I've ever worked on anything mechanical in my entire life. EDIT: CHECKED HOSE FROM PETCOCK TO CARB. CONNECTION IS GOOD. HOSE IS IN GOOD CONDITION. Edit. good video on refurbing petcock: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DqvB_5gP20 EDIT: I took the big hose off the petcock. Fuel flowed freely and quickly. Looks like this baby is bad. Last futzed with by ninjayetti; March 16th, 2016 at 03:34 PM. |
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March 16th, 2016, 03:58 PM | #24 |
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March 16th, 2016, 03:59 PM | #25 |
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March 16th, 2016, 04:09 PM | #26 |
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Idk if the newgen does, but the pregen doesn't, and I sure wish it did.
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March 16th, 2016, 04:17 PM | #27 |
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Anyone know where I can find newgen kits? All I can find is this on amazon, but it's pregen:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00..._U1CGub05DT5NT |
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March 16th, 2016, 05:38 PM | #28 |
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Hi Guys,
First, want to thank you for your help thus far. Given that there is too much fuel and not enough air in the bowl as a result of the faulty petcock, would this contribute to the fouling of spark plugs? Also, I'm assuming the fault petcock will only really affect starting conditions, correct? Once started, and the vacuum is strong, does the petcock essentially operate correctly, since the bowls will close when full, or will it still foul A/F equilibrium? Thanks! |
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March 16th, 2016, 05:45 PM | #29 | |
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That isn't your only problem. With your floats set properly and your float needles in good shape your carbs would be set at the proper level and it wouldn't matter if the petcock was always on or not, however there is a problem, and you need to solve it, fixing the petcock is a nice safety feature, but its not neccescary. MX bikes don't have vacuum operated petcocks, so you have to turn the petcocks off when the bike is off (or else you risk hydrolock when your floats go bad), street bikes have vacuum petcocks so that you don't have to turn the petcock off.
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March 16th, 2016, 05:51 PM | #30 | |
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Quote:
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March 16th, 2016, 05:56 PM | #31 |
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Yes. You need to set your float height and replace your float seals. You should rebuild/replace your petcock, but it is not neccesacry to make your bike run.
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March 16th, 2016, 05:58 PM | #32 | |
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Quote:
I already purchased the petcock kit. This is going to start getting expensive. To be clear, the bike runs and idles just fine once warm. With that being said, I'm still not sure if it's running too lean, but that might be the case if the bowls need adjustment, correct? Thanks again! Ryan |
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March 16th, 2016, 06:00 PM | #33 | |
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March 16th, 2016, 06:08 PM | #34 | |
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Thanks! Ryan |
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March 16th, 2016, 07:08 PM | #35 |
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I meant to say float needle seals, which is just a different way of saying float needles. They should come in any carb rebuild kit, if not they could a be ordered on jetrus.com
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March 17th, 2016, 07:25 AM | #36 | |
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Quote:
This is a solid video on the principles of adjusting the floats: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xj220oY26Yo Again, thanks for all your help! |
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March 22nd, 2016, 11:04 AM | #37 |
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Hi There,
Finally got around to removing the tank and petcock. I took the petcock apart, and everything appears to be 100% fine. Now I'm confused, because it was 100% leaking a lot of fuel when the bike is off. Any ideas? Ryan |
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March 22nd, 2016, 11:28 AM | #38 | |
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Either one of the parts is missing, the diphram is ripped, or the spring is on the wrong side of the diphram.
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March 22nd, 2016, 11:44 AM | #39 | |
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It was assembled correctly, according to the petcock diagram on this site. http://faq.ninja250.org/images/0/03/832902.jpg As far as I know, the petcock was never taken apart, so not sure how it could have been put together incorrectly. P.S. When i checked the petcock, I pulled out the larger of the two hoses while the bike was off, and it leaked fuel continually. Also, it continued to leak fuel when the tank was removed, as well. Thanks |
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March 22nd, 2016, 08:19 PM | #40 | |
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