valve emulators

[lolibater]

http://www.amazon.com/Caddies-Cartri.../dp/B000GV0RWO

Been considering these with my Amazon gift card, due to the reviews I've read on the ninja250.org site. Does anyone have experience with these? Worth it?

[Jim Moore]

Make sure you get springs too. Worth every penny.

[lolibater]

The main reason I'm looking to get the valve emulators is to soak up a little more road vibration, as well as provide better dampening. What type of springs should I look into?

Also, I assume the fork oil will need to be changed for this. Which oil should I replace it with?

[cuz]

http://www.sonicsprings.com/catalog/...pring_rate.php

sonic springs r cheaper than race-tech

[lolibater]

Awesome! Thanks for the info, I'll check those ones out too.

What should I be looking at for installation labor?

[cuz]

fork and oil seals

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23200

[lolibater]

So about 2 or 3 hours. Sounds about right. Should only run me about $150 to a friend to install.

$350 all together for the springs, emulators, oil, and labor.

Any word on what fork oil to use?

Also, I found a set of "stiffer than stock" front springs, that the previous owner had given me. Is there any way to tell what the stiffness is on them?

[Lychee]

I just refreshed my forks this weekend. It is really easy. Gear puller is not necessary to compress the cap. Make sure you install this:

Highly recommend you do the suspension upgrade in stages. Refresh fork oil first (easiest and probably needs to be done anyway). Ride for awhile. Then add springs (sonic springs are cheap). Ride for awhile. Then have valve emulators installed (expensive). This way you can feel what happens for each thing you change and log it in your memory somewhere.

According to the ninja 250 FAQ the stock spring rate is 0.44 kg/mm. Spring rate can be measured if you have a measuring caliper. Find a calculator on the net and input the measurements. Usually you measure things like outer diameter, thickness of spring, unloaded length, number of coils, etc.

How much do you weigh? Use your weight in the spring calculator on race tech or sonic springs' websites. This will tell you what weight fork oil to use. I don't think the brand matters unless you are racing.

[lolibater]

I weigh 135 on a heavy day, so not heavy at all.

I'll take a look at their site to determine the stiffness and report back on what I think they are. Sonic Spring's name sounds vaguely familiar.

[Lychee]

Originally Posted by lolibater

I weigh 135 on a heavy day, so not heavy at all.

I'll take a look at their site to determine the stiffness and report back on what I think they are. Sonic Spring's name sounds vaguely familiar.

You may be too light for their lightest spring (0.7 kg/mm). The Race Tech calculator suggests 0.626 kg/mm for you. Sonic Springs says 0.7 kg/mm, but I think that is wrong since I weigh 170 and it lists 0.7 for me. Sonic springs does do custom spring rates for feather weights.

[lolibater]

The ones I have are .8

Too stiff?

[Jim Moore]

Originally Posted by lolibater

The ones I have are .8

Too stiff?

I weigh 160. I have 0.70s. They're a little soft. The 0.80s may be a little stiff for you, but they will be a huge improvement over the current springs. You can make your own spacers from 3/4" id pvc pipe. That's what Race Tech sends you when you order springs. You can try different spacer lengths to see how much sag it gives you. Try different spacer lengths until you end up with 25-35 mm of sag.

Speaking of that, I would buy the emulators from RaceTech if I were you. Once you buy the stuff they're available to answer questions. They're really helpful. I don't think Amazon has any suspension experts on staff.

[GeorgeRYoung]

The Concours has emulators and they work pretty well to reduce sharp bump harshness.

One frugal idea, you can make your stock springs stiffer by cutting them shorter. For example, if you cut them 25% shorter they become 25% stiffer, so 0.44 / 0.75 = 0.587 Kg/mm. You replace the cut off bit with a piece of pipe and a couple of washers.

It is possible to go overboard on this and then the spring binds and that is probably undesirable.

[Lychee]

Originally Posted by Jim Moore

I weigh 160. I have 0.70s. They're a little soft.

Really? What kind of riding do you do? Pace in turns? Maybe their calculator is wrong. Are you a bad ass on the wee ninjette?

[Jim Moore]

Originally Posted by Lychee

Really? What kind of riding do you do? Pace in turns? Maybe their calculator is wrong?

I'm a speeder, lol. The 0.70s with the recommended spacer gave me over 40 mm of sag. I put in a longer spacer and brought it down to about 35 mm. I was planning to try a little longer spacer, but I decided to sell the bike instead.

[Lychee]

Hmmm... maybe I should go with 0.75.

[lolibater]

So....... is the general consensus that .80 is too stiff for me?

[lolibater]

From the sonic springs site. I estimated my gear at ~ 15-20 lbs. Hopefully that's not too much. 90% of the time I have a tail bag, and 100% of the time I have a tank bag.

[Lychee]

Originally Posted by lolibater

So....... is the general consensus that .80 is too stiff for me?

way too stiff. I got a couple of forks over here you can throw those extra springs into.....

[Jim Moore]

Throw 'em in there. See if you like it. Swapping springs is simple once you see it done.

[lolibater]

What rate would you suggest for me?

What is our stock spring rate anyways?

I'm also wondering if the emulators will help to "mitigate" the "overly stiff" spring? I'll pick up another set of springs if need be and sell these.

[Lychee]

Originally Posted by lolibater

From the sonic springs site. I estimated my gear at ~ 15-20 lbs. Hopefully that's not too much. 90% of the time I have a tail bag, and 100% of the time I have a tank bag.

That's a good estimate of weight.

I feel like the sonic springs calculator has an oddity. Varying your body weight 10 or 20 pounds doesn't seem to change the recommended spring rate when it seems like it should. Try the race tech calculator for a second opinion.

[Lychee]

Originally Posted by lolibater

What rate would you suggest for me?

What is our stock spring rate anyways?

I'm also wondering if the emulators will help to "mitigate" the "overly stiff" spring? I'll pick up another set of springs if need be and sell these.

0.6 per race tech
0.44 stock per faq
no, I am pretty sure they do different things.

I'm with Jim on this one. Throw em in and see how it reacts. Changing them is really easy.

[Jim Moore]

The stock springs are 0.44 according to RaceTech. That's way too soft. I'm not sure who they were building the bike for, but that's ridiculous. The 0.8 may be a little stiff for you, but it's within well the reasonable range. You can compensate with a shorter spacer. All you're trying to do is get approximately 30 mm of sag. As long as your springs are close (which you are with the 0.8s) it doesn't really matter if you do it with a stiffer spring and less preload (shorter spacer) or a softer spring and more preload (longer spacer).

[Lychee]

Originally Posted by Jim Moore

The stock springs are 0.44 according to RaceTech. That's way too soft. I'm not sure who they were building the bike for, but that's ridiculous. The 0.8 may be a little stiff for you, but it's within well the reasonable range. You can compensate with a shorter spacer. All you're trying to do is get approximately 30 mm of sag. As long as your springs are close (which you are with the 0.8s) it doesn't really matter if you do it with a stiffer spring and less preload (shorter spacer) or a softer spring and more preload (longer spacer).

Hmmm. begs the question: What length of spacer would put the stock spring at 30 mm sag? Although the travel would probably be too short to be usable.

[lolibater]

racetech recommended .70

[lolibater]

If I installed emulators, new oil (still need to know what weight; i believe stock is 15?), and the .8 springs at the same time, and find the springs too stiff, will I have to remove the emulators and oil to change to a softer spring?

[psych0hans]

Originally Posted by lolibater

If I installed emulators, new oil (still need to know what weight; i believe stock is 15?), and the .8 springs at the same time, and find the springs too stiff, will I have to remove the emulators and oil to change to a softer spring?

I believe you will just have to remove the springs... Not sure about the oil, but there will be no need to remove the emulators...

[lolibater]

Thanks for the info Hans.

"Fork oil" is just normal oil right?

[rojoracing53]

Are the 2008+ springs stiffer then the pregens?

[psych0hans]

Originally Posted by lolibater

Thanks for the info Hans.

"Fork oil" is just normal oil right?

You get special fork oil to put in your forks... If you have it available, I'd recommend that. It's not TOO expensive. Just look on amazon/eBay.

[psych0hans]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

Are the 2008+ springs stiffer then the pregens?

I believe they are... .63 as opposed to .44... I've bought .70 for my newgen and I weigh about 155lbs without gear.

[lolibater]

Originally Posted by psych0hans

I believe they are... .63 as opposed to .44... I've bought .70 for my newgen and I weigh about 155lbs without gear.

Based on your numbers here, it would seem .8 might be a little stiff. Is it really as simple as compensating with a shorter spacer?

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by lolibater

Based on your numbers here, it would seem .8 might be a little stiff. Is it really as simple as compensating with a shorter spacer?

No there is an optimal range for the amount of preload you want to apply to a spring, to much or to little will not work as it was intended. You can also mix spring rates if you have a second set like a .80 on the left and a .70 in the right to make a .75 setup. The same can be done with different wieght fork oils.

[rojoracing53]

When I talk to race tech about a custom spring for my NSR they told me if I didn't like what they recommended then they would trade me out for a different set. They quite nice so you may want to talk to them direct and ask someone like Dave moss just tell him Jason Perez sent you.

[lolibater]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

No there is an optimal range for the amount of preload you want to apply to a spring, to much or to little will not work as it was intended. You can also mix spring rates if you have a second set like a .80 on the left and a .70 in the right to make a .75 setup. The same can be done with different wieght fork oils.

Are you sure about that? That doesn't seem correct to me. Any time you'd hit a bump, the bike would pull towards the side with the stiffer spring.

[psych0hans]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

When I talk to race tech about a custom spring for my NSR they told me if I didn't like what they recommended then they would trade me out for a different set. They quite nice so you may want to talk to them direct and ask someone like Dave moss just tell him Jason Perez sent you.

Yes, I definitely appreciate their customer service. Hey mailed me the ideal setup for my front and back despite not having bought from them directly. They also recommended the perfect spring for the gsxr rear shock (yet to be)installed in my ninjette accordin to our combined weights... Good people... I might consider picking up their gold valve kit for my rear shock too, once I get it installed and give it some decent seat time...

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by lolibater

Are you sure about that? That doesn't seem correct to me. Any time you'd hit a bump, the bike would pull towards the side with the stiffer spring.

I've only got like 7 years of professional racing experience at the national and world levels so I may not know what I'm talking about

But really some Superbike have only compression valves in the left and rebound valves in the right. That is why we have upper AND lower triple clamps, they keep everything inline. Given a 250 doesn't have the same level of bracing as a 1000ss it is still stiff enough to handle a difference in springs of at least .15

[Alex]

Originally Posted by lolibater

Are you sure about that? That doesn't seem correct to me. Any time you'd hit a bump, the bike would pull towards the side with the stiffer spring.

Nope. The axle needs to be stiff enough, and held tight enough, that that fork legs travel up and down together. If it weren't, our bikes would have terrible handling problems from the get go.

It's how Yamaha and other manufacturers have the compression adjustment in one fork leg, and the rebound in the other. The different forks are actually controlling completely different things. This isn't a cost-saving measure, they do the exact same thing in their $M+ GP bikes.

EDIT: What Jason said.

[lolibater]

That's freakin cool. Sorry for doubting you lol, I'm sure you can see where I might have had reservations about that.

Would it be unwise to have a stock .44 on the right and a .8 on the left? Not sure if they need to be closer values.