April 15th, 2015, 05:36 PM | #41 | |
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April 15th, 2015, 05:40 PM | #42 |
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April 15th, 2015, 05:47 PM | #43 |
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Can you explain this a bit? I understand that the back end in a slide is easier to control but my impression was that the suspension, traction and weight was a bit more ideal for the front side of things in a braking situation. I will try and explain my logic a bit more if needed when I can ponder this a bit longer but wanted your gut reaction if you had any.
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April 15th, 2015, 05:58 PM | #44 | |
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If you lock up the front tire and stay on the brakes, the front will drop and you will "lowside". Release immediately the front brake if you lock up. |
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April 15th, 2015, 06:07 PM | #45 | |
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April 15th, 2015, 06:11 PM | #46 | |
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April 15th, 2015, 08:51 PM | #47 | ||
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April 16th, 2015, 08:30 AM | #48 |
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You guys are making this way too complicated. When in an emergency:
1.) use both brakes 2.) Quickly add more braking power 3.) If the back tire locks up, keep it locked until you stop. 4.) If the front tire locks up, release the front brake. - A skidding rear tire will provide more braking force than one that isn't being used. - The front wheel can only provide 70% of braking force. If the rear wheel lifts, the front wheel is still only providing 70% of overall braking force. By using just the front brake, only 70% of possible braking force is being used to slow down. The fastest way to stop a motorcycle is by keeping both tires on the ground, as only the rear tire can provide the other 30%. Practicing to brake hard enough to keep the rear wheel on the ground is the BEST way to slow down as quickly as possible. This is reflected even in MotoGP -sure they unicycle into the corners quite often but they're always trying to get their rear tires back down as quickly as possible... Otherwise every corner would be a stoppy following by a wheelie and although it might LOOK that way, the electronic assists and a rider's goals is to keep both tires on the ground as much as possible. It should be your goal as well. - To be able to most effectively execute this, practice practice practice. Go to a large parking lot or a road that isn't used much, wear a bright best, put out some cones then ride the bike up to 15mph and brake as quickly as you can. Do it again at 20mph, 25, 30, 35, 40 and take your time. This will build the muscle memory to be automatically used in an emergency situation. During an emergency situation most people don't think, they simply react, having the muscle memory ingrained is rather important and most people don't dedicate enough time and energy to this. So, what are some strategies to keep the rear wheel on the ground? @csmith12 input? @Misti input?
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April 16th, 2015, 09:20 AM | #49 | |
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I do tend to complicate things My questions of course have been resolved and your 4 bullet points sum it up nicely. I do however believe that on a light sports bike that the front brake accounts for much more than 70% of braking. If the rear wheel lifts the front will use 100% as all the traction and weight is on the front. Just nitpicking and trying to learn I do agree with most of what you said. check it out: http://www.bikebandit.com/community/...ing-techniques http://www.stevemunden.com/braking.html and an article that appears to balance the other two out a bit http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/life...ke-motorcycle/
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April 16th, 2015, 10:09 AM | #50 |
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In this threads context and simply put... sitting up on the tank, a tight grip on the bars and a stiff upper body the bike stoppies. Loose, relaxed and locked onto the bike with the lower body gives controlled braking all the way to the point of lock up, then the rider can ease up a bit on the lever to keep from washing out. Easier said than done though, gotta practice it. The rear may get light and even lift up a little, but doing a stoppie isn't the goal for corner entry, nor emergency braking.
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April 16th, 2015, 10:28 AM | #51 |
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I think he stalled because he locked up the rear. The engine dies before he completely stops which tells me he locked up the rear with out the clutch in which stalled the bike.
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April 16th, 2015, 11:42 AM | #52 |
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For emergency stops on nice, dry road, I used to use only my front brake. I stopped doing that after reading a long thread about braking (all threads about braking seem to be long threads about braking!). I now use the technique that @ally99 uses (I think it was her):
Initially I get on both the front and rear brake. I progressively add more and more front brake. When the front suspension gets compressed enough and the front contact patch gets big enough that I can put very heavy braking on, I start to completely take off the rear brake. The initial, gentle, simultaneous application of both front and rear means I don't have to split my concentration between the 2 independent brakes (they both go on together - it's one action). After that I remain safely, gentle on the rear and almost all of my concentration is on progressively adding braking force on the front. Even when I get to the point of braking where I'm getting off the rear brake, I'm only doing that because of what I'm feeling from the front braking; so again - I'm not splitting my focus.I really like this technique as it seems to offer the best of both schools of thought (just front Vs. front and rear). I get that initial benefit of using the rear brake. I get to keep almost all of my concentration on what I'm doing with the front brake (the really important one). As the braking gets really hard up front I have little to no risk of the rear stepping out as I'm off the rear brake by that point. ^ None of the above applies to braking on wet/low-grip surfaces or non-emergency stops. I do completely different stuff for almost all other braking situations.
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April 16th, 2015, 02:27 PM | #53 | |||
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April 16th, 2015, 02:35 PM | #54 |
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How so?
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April 16th, 2015, 02:50 PM | #55 |
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April 16th, 2015, 04:09 PM | #56 |
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April 16th, 2015, 05:38 PM | #57 | |
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I know I would've locked up my rear wheel. :P Need to practice more this summer.
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April 17th, 2015, 04:58 PM | #59 | |
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.
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April 19th, 2015, 11:43 AM | #60 | |
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April 19th, 2015, 02:30 PM | #61 | |
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Also, doing a little bit of homework reveals that our eager rider is learning how easy it is to lock the rear due to his practice runs thus far. I am sure, if he practices enough, he will eventually lock the front as well, but a quick, controlled release of some pressure will have him continuing on as normal per see. Let's just hope it's during practice and NOT in a time of dire straits.
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April 19th, 2015, 03:08 PM | #63 | |
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April 19th, 2015, 04:47 PM | #64 |
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Oh, I have no doubt you are.
Read Twist of the Wrist by Keith Code. Then you'll have a better idea of what parts are right and wrong yourself.
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April 19th, 2015, 11:03 PM | #65 |
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I have and I have the movie. And still I have not stated any false info. Such as his false info in regards to the only way you can turn a sport bike is pushing on the bars.
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April 19th, 2015, 11:13 PM | #66 |
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April 20th, 2015, 12:23 AM | #67 |
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^ that guy grabbed a hand full of front brake after he saw a cop and paniced. What happened to him has never happened to me despite the fact I work my front brake very hard every time I need to stop quickly (including in the wet). The guy in the video clearly lacks knowledge and practise. when he attains those things he will likely never experience that kind of crash again.
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April 20th, 2015, 07:10 AM | #68 | ||
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April 20th, 2015, 11:31 AM | #69 | |
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April 20th, 2015, 01:15 PM | #70 | |
ninjette.org sage
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1: Use both brakes- Sportbikes these days are capable of providing 100% of braking with just the front brake. When racing I only use front brake unless I've run off track, on the street I'd probably do the same on a newer sport bike. Other bikes I use a combo of both brakes but favour the front heavily. At the super bike school we coach front brake only as the rear is easy to lock and control and can cause more problems then benefits. However, whether you use one or both brakes you need to learn how to do it correctly. 2: Quickly add more braking power - What we coach at the Superbike School is to quickly grab the brakes but to still be smooth. You can get on the brakes super fast and effectively while still doing it smoothly and I like to say progressively add braking power. This means that you initially grab the brake lever and squeeze smoothly and progressively, not stab the brakes or give it a bit and then suddenly squeeze harder. 3:If the back tire locks up, keep it locked until you stop. ABSOLUTELY NOT. This is a sure fire way of hitting the ground. If the back tire locks then slightly release the lever until it unlocks but don't release completely. If the rear locks it often slides and begins to fish tale. If you keep it locked the sliding can get worse. Your braking is not effective if you are sliding the rear or locking the font tire, your overall stopping distance will be more if you are sliding all over the place. 4.) If the front tire locks up, release the front brake.- not entirely. If the front locks and you release the front brake completely you may not stop in time to avoid whatever it is you were trying to stop for in the first place. If the front locks up then release it just enough to stop the lock but so that you continue to slow down. This is more effective and faster then releasing and re-applying. here is a link to an article I wrote on the subject and when I have a bit more time I'll come back here to answer any further questions...but I gotta run right now! http://www.motomom.ca/emergency-braking/
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April 21st, 2015, 09:59 AM | #71 | |
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I would also like to point out that track riding and expectations are different from street riding in that surprises are more likely on the road. A track for instance doesn't have pedestrians or animals which dart into the road without any warning. Considering the street, from the MSF BRC handbook: p.34 FRONT TIRE SKID "If a front tire skid occurs, you must release the front brake lever to get the front wheel rolling again. Then apply the brake again if needed." REAR TIRE SKID "A rear tire skid can be straight or it can cause the back of the motorcycle to skid sideways. If the back moves sideways, keep pressure on the rear brake pedal so the wheel continues to skid, and maintain balance to stay upright. Keep your head and eyes up. Your path of travel will remain in the direction you were going when the skid began." Since this site tends to be one of the first resources new riders access I wanted to make sure to recap and stay consistent with those methods they are most likely familiar with either leading up to the course or after taking a BRC. The BRC is designed to get riders through their first year of riding, after which, in the ARC, the same techniques which Keith Codes presents, and the ones you are talking about, are covered. During that particularly dangerous time riders need a very short list to remember. Emergency stops are hard enough, distilling the reminders is the bet way to keep riders safe. Many riders will never ride on a track, or take advanced training, and although they should, they never master the basics of riding which is why I provided the list above. This discussion is testament to the differences between various curricula and enforces the need for continued education and training, for all riders. I must also express that riding dynamics do not change on the track vs. the street, so what is learned on the track can most definitely be applied to the street. That's the whole idea, learn about the bike's limitations to most effectively apply them on the street. To bring this back to the original video then... The rider obviously misused the word "perfect", however the stop is a great example of a very real risk on the streets and a great execution to attain the end goal, which is to keep everybody safe. It emphasizes the need to practice practice practice and commit to muscle memory that which we learn.
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April 21st, 2015, 10:33 AM | #72 |
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Your front does 90% of your stopping. Beginners have too many other things to think about. Add rear as you get more experience. It is most critical to master the front first.
jmo
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April 21st, 2015, 05:18 PM | #73 | |
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Think of traction like a pizza. If you have only 1 pizza, you eat 100% of it, how much is left? Same with traction.
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April 21st, 2015, 07:27 PM | #74 |
I'm crazy,your excuse is?
Name: Winston
Location: Connecticut
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Tires only can give 100%. Engine braking cannot magically add traction.
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April 22nd, 2015, 05:32 PM | #75 |
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And better tires can handle more braking power.
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April 23rd, 2015, 11:45 AM | #76 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Misti
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If the front end starts to skid the normal reaction of most riders is to release the front brake and then reapply. I see it happen all the time when we train our riders to purposely lock the front tire (on our braking rig which has outriggers to prevent crashes). However, if you are trying to avoid hitting something on the street, a car that stopped in front of you or whatever and you grab the front brake and start to skid....if you completely release the front brake and then try to grab them again chances are you aren't going to stop for the obstacle. Your stopping distance is much greater if you release and re-apply the brake then if you could train yourself to release the brake JUST ENOUGH TO STOP THE SKID. I don't think that it's a higher level of learning, it takes practice to get it correct but I'd rather all new riders learn it this way then to practice releasing the brake and re-applying.... Same goes for the rear tire skid. It's pretty difficult to remain balanced and in control of the bike when the rear tire is skidding around (whether the skid is straight or the back end starts fishtailing) that to me requires a higher level of riding skill then releasing the rear brake slightly so that the wheel unlocks. In the simplest terms, I have my students get on the brakes (front brake only or both) quickly and squeeze the levers progressively (not stabbing or stomping or pounding on them) until just before lock up to get the most effective stopping distance. If either of the brakes lock then I coach them to release the brakes slightly so that they unlock but that they continue to slow down and stop safely. Ride safe
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April 23rd, 2015, 12:19 PM | #77 |
Nooblet
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@Misti - I've experienced my rear wheel lockup on my motorcycle but never my front wheel.
On my mountain bike, when I'm riding fast down hill, I frequently brake hard enough to the point where both of my wheels are locked up... I then unlock them. When braking hard on my MTB sometimes I'm drifting in and out of locked wheels constantly. I'm comfortable doing this on my MTB, but very uncomfortable at the prospect of locking my wheels (front especially) on my motorcycle. This is partly because my motorcycle is far less resilient and far more expensive to fix than my MTB and it's partly because if I hit the ground on my motorcycle, it's likely to hurt alot more (hard pavement vs soft dirt) and I might get some crushing injuries too under the heavy bike. My question! How transferable do you think my downhill MTB brake-lockup experience is to my motorcycle street riding on my ninja 250? If I lock the front on my ninja will it feel similar to on my MTB? Are my MTB instincts transferable to my motorcycle or are they actually going to cause me problems? I've survived my first years of riding by not braking hard enough to come close to locking up. At some point though I may experience a lockup by accident if I misread the road surface or I ride a bit too fast for the conditions. I feel like I should probably get over this front-wheel lockup fear.
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April 24th, 2015, 10:48 AM | #78 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Misti
Location: Vancouver, BC
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Quote:
Locking up the front on your motorcycle will feel similar to locking the front on a mt bike but because the mt bike is lighter and you are on dirt instead of pavement it will normally lock a lot easier than a streetibke. I've written an article on front end feel that may help explain front tire traction feel a little bit more.... you can read it here: You could work on training yourself to release the brakes slightly (instead of releasing completely) when you feel either begin to lock on your mountain bike and you should also practice emergency braking on your Ninja in a safe and calculated manner. We have a braking training bike at the California Superbike School which has outriggers to prevent it from crashing. We use it to allow our students to experience what it feels like for the front tire to lock. They are often astounded at how much brake pressure it takes to cause it to lock in the first place, and then we train them to release the brake slightly so that they stop the lock but continue to come to a safe and quick stop. It's a handy tool to have to allow students to really experience what a front tire lock up feels like. I hope that answered your question! Cheers, Misti
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April 24th, 2015, 10:54 AM | #79 |
I'm crazy,your excuse is?
Name: Winston
Location: Connecticut
Join Date: May 2013 Motorcycle(s): 250 2007 ninja Posts: A lot.
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@Misti
Have any of your students highside while practicing releasing the rear locked brake at school? Just that the NSF makes it seem inevitable, obviously not necessarily the case especially if the back wheel is in line with the front wheel. |
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April 24th, 2015, 10:59 AM | #80 | |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
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A side benefit of being locked in though is, it keeps the "questionable" advice to a minimum during the course. So students don't leave with more questions than answers ya know.
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