1st Time Valve Adjustment Guidance Needed (video)

[az3200]

Hello again, some people were helping me in another thread regarding my engine making noise and my cam chain. I went ahead and decided to start doing a valve adjustment today. I've gotten the bike stripped and the cover to the engine off.

Now I'm kinda stuck, Please watch the video I feel like I can explain it better than trying to type it here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58NQH-IeR9E


Please tell me what I'm doing wrong...or are my valves fried?

Motofool, n4mwd: Where are you? :P

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by az3200

........Motofool, n4mwd: Where are you? :P

Sorry, A; I have been away.

Your video shows that you are doing everything correctly.

In your other thread, n4mwd explained that the best gauge was bent-shaped.
The reason is that it is hard to insert a straight gauge like yours into that gap at the very bottom.

Note: that 0.006 inches gauge should not fit in the intake valves.

Turning the screws counterclockwise make the gap bigger.
The proper way to do this is to insert a smaller gauge before messing with the current adjustment in order to have an idea of how off the adjustment grew up to be for that particular valve; sorry again, I should have told you.
Most of the times 1/4 turn is all it takes to set it right; if you go crazy unscrewing the thing, it will be harder to fine-adjust the gap.

In order to learn the feeling and positions, try inserting a smaller gauge, which should be all bent when properly positioned between the bottom of the lube and the top of the rocker.

Let's call @n4mwd

Please don't panic about this, you could damage the engine.
Be slow, patient and methodical, and remember not to over-torque those nuts.

You need to re-measure after you torque each nut, because that simple action sometimes deviates the ideal adjustment.

"The feeler gauge should slide in with little effort and drag slightly when the clearance is correct. The factory clearance specifications are .08 - .13mm (0.003-0.005 inches) for the intake valves and .11 - .16mm (0.004-0.006 inches) for the exhaust valves. It is easy to accidentally use an inch gauge instead of a mm gauge, so make doubly sure you're looking at the right numbers. The feelers should be thin and flexible, not thick and stiff.
Wrong feeler gauge size: Some people make the mistake of using standard (inch) .10 gauges in the mistaken notion that that's what is called for. One quick way to tell if the gauges you are using are the proper ones is if the gauge is as thin as a piece of paper. If it's as thick as a dime, that's the wrong size.
Instead of buying feeler gauges with bent tips, you can just bend the last inch on straight ones and they'll work fine.
For telling how much pressure should be on a feeler gauge, the old school technique was to feel a little drag on the feeler gauge... it was described as about what you'd feel when pulling a sheet of paper out from under a magazine or two. Slight drag. New way of thought is that ANY adjustment, within spec, is good enough (and it is for street riders). So, just make sure the gauge for the middle spec goes in fine, but the next thicker one doesn't go at all."

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Hints_%...lve_Adjustment

[az3200]

hey, no worries.
dammit all man. Looks like I'll be doing another valve adjustment all day tomorrow. I spaced them all to .006, put everything back together and I've already started the bike and went to walmart for a total of about 4 miles...


Check out this video I took while I had the top of the engine off. Is there EVER supposed to be slack on this cam chain? take a look...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUuOZ7RUlds


Btw in regards to the other thread I had made about the engine noise. It's still about the same, though that could be my sloppy valve job, but if i had to guess i'd say it's that cam chain..

[n4mwd]

First video: It really didn't look like the exhaust lobe was right, but its hard to tell in the video. Remember that both lobes on the cylinder you are working on should be pointing up and away from each other like this: "\ /" The "1|T" mark is correct only half the time. If the lobes aren't pointing up correctly, then rotate the crank one full turn. And remember to change it to "2|T" for cylinder #2.

In case we weren't clear on what you need to do, the nut is basically a locknut and that is the dangerous one if overtightened. The screw that goes inside the nut is the adjuster. So you have to loosen the nut so that you can turn the screw in and out to the proper thickness. Then tighten the nut back up - BUT NOT OVERTORQUING IT. I may sound like a stuck record on this, but its better to be too loose than too tight if you aren't sure. If you hear any kind of cracking sound while turning the locknut either direction, then you need to stop and examine the rocker's dog ears for chips. Its hard to believe that such a tiny thing could destroy this engine, but it will if you give it a chance.

Anyway, I have been experimenting with the last several valve adjustments on an easier way to do the measurements. The problem with the standard method is that the adjuster screw has a tendency to tighten up a tad when you tighten the locknut - thus throwing off your gap.

My new method (experimental) is to put the next larger feeler gauge in there and leave it there during the tightening process. So if the max is 0.007", I use 0.008". So what I do is tighten the adjustment screw down onto the feeler gauge so that there is a good bit of pressure on the valve. Then I tighten the locknut. Since the adjuster screw already has pressure on it, it can't easily turn when I tighten the locknut. Then when all is tight, I pull out the feeler and the valve snaps back up to the proper gap - so 0.007" goes in and 0.008" does not.

Either method is valid, its just that the new method seems less frustrating because you don't have to keep redoing things when the locknut accidentally tightens the adjuster also. YMMV.

Second Video: That cam chain is WAY to loose. I realize that you took the chain guide off for inspection, but when you turned it, you probably skipped a tooth or two and didn't realize it. The guide helps prevent that.

So what needs to be done now is that you need to move the crank to "2|T" and look at the IN and EX marks on the back side of the cam sprockets. This has to be viewed from the left side. The IN and EX marks should be even with the edge of the cylinder head - and of course the chain needs to be tight between the two.

The cam chain tensioner is still not working right. You need to remove it and see if you can work it back and forth to get it to free itself. I push on the lever with a socket extenson (which tightens the chain), then I push on the chain, which moves the lever back up. By doing this repeatedly, the tensioner mechanism will free up.

You might want to check the tensioner parts. Make sure that none of the little ball bearings fell out of the locking collar and that both springs are in good shape. When the CCT is working properly, you wont be able to deflect the chain much at all after a revolution or two.

And you should not ride it with the cam chain loose like that. If it skips a tooth when running, the result can be almost as bad as overtorquing the rockers. If you are lucky, it will just run bad or quit, but don't count on it.

You should measure your chain. The manual says to measure a bunch of links, but to do it their way, you have to remove the chain, which is a major deal (the engine has to be removed and the crankcase split). But you can also just measure multiple segments between the two tight sprockets and look for any major differences or obvious damage. Its just as good as doing it the factory way and a lot easier.

[az3200]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

So what needs to be done now is that you need to move the crank to "2|T" and look at the IN and EX marks on the back side of the cam sprockets. This has to be viewed from the left side. The IN and EX marks should be even with the edge of the cylinder head - and of course the chain needs to be tight between the two.

The cam chain tensioner is still not working right. You need to remove it and see if you can work it back and forth to get it to free itself. I push on the lever with a socket extenson (which tightens the chain), then I push on the chain, which moves the lever back up. By doing this repeatedly, the tensioner mechanism will free up.

You might want to check the tensioner parts. Make sure that none of the little ball bearings fell out of the locking collar and that both springs are in good shape. When the CCT is working properly, you wont be able to deflect the chain much at all after a revolution or two.

In regards to your first paragraph I quoted, why am I going to do this? Is this to make sure the chain didn't jump a tooth? And what if it did? how do I remedy that? If it lines up the way you describe, Does that mean that the chain is in proper place on the sprockets?

I've had the CCT off twice yesterday. The parts themselves seem to be fine, the bearing looked ok, and the two springs looked to be in good condition also. When I placed the CCT housing back on the engine, I tightened the two bolts a little, then released the little screw. I heard the "cling" so it sounds like it engaged.

I do have to admit the first time I played with the CCT 2 days ago i re installed it incorrectly and rode about a 80 round trip throughout the day. I was unable to loosen that little retaining screw when I tried putting it back together. I was unaware of the importance of this so i just pushed the plunger and spring in, with it stopping on the screw instead of the top of the housing. sh*t...

I really hope I didn't ruin this cam chain. Doesn't sound like a quick job to replace.

How do I go about measuring the chain like you described?

Oh, and please try to be as detailed as possible in your response. I am going to be working on this problem all day tomorrow. I appreciate all the help I've been given so far.

Edit: also, so why does my cam chain go from being tight to being loose? does that mean the CCT is engaging sometimes, but not other times? like if you watch my video, when the chain is tight, does that mean the CCT is working? and when it goes to being really loose, is the CCT failing? or is that just because i was turning the engine..?

I'm really paranoid now this whole engine is going to need to be replaced

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by az3200

In regards to your first paragraph I quoted, why am I going to do this? Is this to make sure the chain didn't jump a tooth? And what if it did? how do I remedy that? If it lines up the way you describe, Does that mean that the chain is in proper place on the sprockets?

Yes, its a test to see if you jumped a tooth. If it did, you just have to jump it back the other way. No big deal to do it right. If the IN and EX line up right, then you're good.

I've had the CCT off twice yesterday. The parts themselves seem to be fine, the bearing looked ok, and the two springs looked to be in good condition also. When I placed the CCT housing back on the engine, I tightened the two bolts a little, then released the little screw. I heard the "cling" so it sounds like it engaged.

I do have to admit the first time I played with the CCT 2 days ago i re installed it incorrectly and rode about a 80 round trip throughout the day. I was unable to loosen that little retaining screw when I tried putting it back together. I was unaware of the importance of this so i just pushed the plunger and spring in, with it stopping on the screw instead of the top of the housing. sh*t...

I doubt you did any permanent damage. But the mechanism (see my video) can get stuck when the bike gets older. You just have to work it free as described above.

I really hope I didn't ruin this cam chain. Doesn't sound like a quick job to replace.

If its still in one piece, then you didn't break it. The chain is pretty tough.

How do I go about measuring the chain like you described?

Count a certain number of links between the two cam sprockets. Always count that same number - whatever it is. Measure the length with a caliper. Write it down and rotate the crank a little bit. Repeat until you get all the way around the chain. It might also be useful to tie a little piece of thread at your starting link so you know when you've gone all the way around. You are looking for noticeable differences in the length between the same number of links at different positions on the chain. Then with a little math, you can extrapolate to figure out if your chain is out of spec according to the manual.

I have never heard of a cam chain breaking on this engine, but they will stretch. I think when you hit 50K miles, you are supposed to change them regardless.

[az3200]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Yes, its a test to see if you jumped a tooth. If it did, you just have to jump it back the other way. No big deal to do it right. If the IN and EX line up right, then you're good.



I doubt you did any permanent damage. But the mechanism (see my video) can get stuck when the bike gets older. You just have to work it free as described above.




If its still in one piece, then you didn't break it. The chain is pretty tough.


Count a certain number of links between the two cam sprockets. Always count that same number - whatever it is. Measure the length with a caliper. Write it down and rotate the crank a little bit. Repeat until you get all the way around the chain. It might also be useful to tie a little piece of thread at your starting link so you know when you've gone all the way around. You are looking for noticeable differences in the length between the same number of links at different positions on the chain. Then with a little math, you can extrapolate to figure out if your chain is out of spec according to the manual.

I have never heard of a cam chain breaking on this engine, but they will stretch. I think when you hit 50K miles, you are supposed to change them regardless.

ok cool thanks, you've calmed my nerves slightly (for the time being lol) the bike has 33k on it, it's a 2002. Tomorrow will be the tell all lol.

If what you're saying is true, I'm thinking it's gotta be that CCT mechanism from your video is stuck on my bike or something. pushing on it then pulling on the cam chain repeatedly will remedy that? What if it doesn't, is there a plan "B"? I keep stressing over why my cam chain is SO loose in that video..

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by az3200

ok cool thanks, you've calmed my nerves slightly (for the time being lol) the bike has 33k on it, it's a 2002. Tomorrow will be the tell all lol.

If what you're saying is true, I'm thinking it's gotta be that CCT mechanism from your video is stuck on my bike or something. pushing on it then pulling on the cam chain repeatedly will remedy that? What if it doesn't, is there a plan "B"? I keep stressing over why my cam chain is SO loose in that video..

I would push down on the chain between the two sprockets to make a little dip in the chain. Then use a blunt rod (like a socket extension) to push down on the lever inside the CCT hole. Don't push too hard as there is a possibility that it could break. What you are looking for is for the dip in the chain to straighten out. If it does, you are on the right track.

If it doesn't, then either the CCT lever is stuck, or its down all the way. If you can't get it to tighten the chain, then either the chain has stretched too much or possibly the chain tensioner guide on the left side is bad/worn. I have never seen the latter.

Good luck with it and keep us posted.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by az3200

........If it lines up the way you describe, Does that mean that the chain is in proper place on the sprockets?

How do I go about measuring the chain like you described?

A,

I know that you are tired and frustrated; however, it will be better if you take some minutes to read the links provided earlier in the other thread.

There are descriptions and schematics in those about how to do those two verifications.

It seems that the bearing of the CCT is failing about retaining the plunge in the lower position.

Thank you for your detailed posts, D !!!

[cuong-nutz]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Yes, its a test to see if you jumped a tooth. If it did, you just have to jump it back the other way. No big deal to do it right. If the IN and EX line up right, then you're good.

If its still in one piece, then you didn't break it. The chain is pretty tough.

Count a certain number of links between the two cam sprockets. Always count that same number - whatever it is. Measure the length with a caliper. Write it down and rotate the crank a little bit. Repeat until you get all the way around the chain. It might also be useful to tie a little piece of thread at your starting link so you know when you've gone all the way around. You are looking for noticeable differences in the length between the same number of links at different positions on the chain. Then with a little math, you can extrapolate to figure out if your chain is out of spec according to the manual.

I have never heard of a cam chain breaking on this engine, but they will stretch. I think when you hit 50K miles, you are supposed to change them regardless.

What I do when I check valve clearances is mark the chain and cam sprockets with a permanent marker so that the marks line up when I put them back in. You just wipe the oil off the area and mark away. Another method is to count 18 links between the front exhaust cam sprocket to the rear of the intake sprocket.

[az3200]

Originally Posted by Motofool

I know that you are tired and frustrated; however, it will be better if you take some minutes to read the links provided earlier in the other thread.

Sorry, I did just look those over. Ugh, sorry for starting 2 threads of basically the same issue. My bad


Anyway, as I was looking over one of the links you posted in the other thread something occurred to me: Is it possible to completely disassemble the CCT components without ever loosening that little screw, ever? The reason I ask is because as I said earlier, that screw was SO tight I ended up having to drill it out, remember? Anyway, with that being the case, I shouldn't have been able to remove that push rod the small spring goes in, correct? In order to do that I would have had to loosen that screw, but I was never able to, yet I got the push rod, 2 springs, and bearing completely free from the housing with no issue, then started drilling the little screw with the CCT completely removed from the bike. (hope that makes sense)

Does that mean the CCT was never properly installed? maybe it's been under too much tension the past 6kmiles from being installed wrong it stretched the cam chain too much? I feel like if it was I would have had to loosen that screw???

Sorry, I'm pretty paranoid about this now. I NEED this bike to run properly. It's my only means of transportation

[n4mwd]

Unless you dropped little parts down in the engine when you had it off, you didn't break it.

The screw at the top is to release the plunger. The plunger has a lip on one end that hooks under the screw.

To assemble, back out the screw, put the little spring inside the plunger, push that up into the housing and then tighten the screw onto the lip. Then with the plunger stuck in there, put the bearing collar over the plunger and into the housing. Don't try to put the plunger into the housing with the collar already on. Then put the big spring over the end of plunger and then bolt the whole assembly down to the engine. There is also a little o-ring gasket I think so don't lose that - just reuse it if its not damaged. Once its bolted to the engine, unscrew the screw and it will release the plunger and snap to the internal CCT lever as it did in my video.

Make sure that the chain and cams are aligned correctly before releasing the plunger.

Note that some lubrication in the CCT housing is OK, but too much can interfere with the locking mechanism.

[n4mwd]

I added a blog about the rocker arm locknuts and why they are so important not to overtorque.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/blog.php?b=1869

It goes into detain about what actually happens in the engine when someone overtorques those nuts.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

I added a blog about the rocker arm locknuts and why they are so important not to overtorque.

That is excellent, D; thanks !!!

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by az3200

........Does that mean the CCT was never properly installed? maybe it's been under too much tension the past 6kmiles from being installed wrong it stretched the cam chain too much? I feel like if it was I would have had to loosen that screw???......

It seems to me that the bike has not had the CCT and the valves serviced for long time, reason for which the screw was so stuck.

Without retracting the plunge all the way up and holding it with that screw, you cannot bolt the case of a properly working CCT to the crankcase.

The reason is that the balls of the bearing would jam the plunge against the conical case and it wouldn't retract to allow the proper room for assembly.

The fact that you were able to do it is telling me that your bearing is no good anymore.
If the little balls are not perfectly spherical and there are marks on the surface of the plunge it allows up and down relative free movement, defeating the purpose of the one-way racketing mechanism.

If that is true, then your chain has been loose for some time, slapping around and producing wear and noise.

Once the chain reaches the specified limit for stretching, the CCT does not work anymore, simply, because that L-shape part hits the crankcase and the rubber guide don't bend anymore to put tension on the chain.

Those are the reasons for which you need to start by measuring the length of the chain and comparing it against the specifications.
If still within range, then, you need to verify that the cams are in the proper rotational position (the loose chain has not jumped the sprockets).
Next, you will need to remove the spark plugs and re-calibrate those valves.
Then you will nedd to buy a new CCT and verify that it keeps the chain under tension before closing the valves' compartment.

[az3200]

^ I will know more about that in a bit and see whether the CCT is in working condition, and the condition of the chain...but I think you're on to something. It's starting to make more and more sense.


I've been outside for an hour now, and here are 2 observations i've made so far..
From what i understand from n4mwd, is that the line under IN and EX on both sprockets should line up to be horizontal. Looks like mine did in fact jump a few teeth. How do I correct this, lift the chain off on of the sprockets and try to move it back? How can I know which sprocket teeth the chain has jumped?


Here is part of the CC guide from the top of the engine. Does this look normal or extremely worn. I'm hoping that grove down the middle is supposed to be there.



So basically from what you're telling me and what i'm observing, I'm starting to think my CCT hasn't bee working for some time, and that the CC has been slapping around my engine causing the rattling, and the CC has probably stretched was past service specs.

Edit: after looking at a picture of the diagram you posted, yest my chain did jump some teeth and the timing is off now. I'm going to try my best now to measure the chain, the hard part is going to be finding a ruler or tape measure..... Will report back

Edit #2: ok, I thought I knew what I was doing but maybe not. I was outside, thought I knew what I was doing, wrote this post, looked at your pics and went back outside. I think the timing is ok, I was looking at IN and EX while they were both on the INSIDE of the the sprockets with the letters closest to each other. I spun the engine like your picture shows, with the IN and EX on the outside of the sprockets furthest from each other and the line up! so thankfully it hasn't skipped any teeth, at least that's what i believe now. Thanks for all the helpful knowledge and pictures

[az3200]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McnrmyzuLCM

So that's where I'm at now. CCT mechanism seems to be working properly. Still WAY too much slack on the chain.

I noticed depending on how the engine is cranked is when the CCT is actually effective?

When I first had the CCT off, i would stick a rod in the hole to try and move the plunger around. It was in a "down" position and would not return unless I pushed down on the CC with my finger. I noticed if I cranked the engine a little, that Plunger would remain in the "up" position allowing me to be able to work it up and down.

I need a new cam chain, huh? actually what I need is to find a ruler or tape measure around here and measure it. What I said previously seems like it won't make a difference though. Even, I'll have to completely remove the engine to replace it

Check craigslist later. You might see a 2002 Green MINT condition bike for sale.

[Motofool]

The marks on the sprockets should align with the top machined surface of the cylinders' head when the flywheel is at mark 2T.
If timing is off, you will need to remove the CCT and manually jump the chain over the offending sprocket.

Yes, that rubber guide is worn.

As you cannot measure 20 links on the top section, you will need to use only 14 links.

For a new chain, each link should measure exactly 1/4 inch (6.3 mm); hence 14 spaces (15 pins) should measure exactly 3.5 inches (88.9 mm).

If you measure those 14 links under a tension of around 10 pounds (via rotating and keeping some torque on the cam-shafts in opposite directions), for several sections of the chain all the way around, and at least one section measures more than 3.55 inches (90.3 mm), then the chain has reached the end of its life.

When you replace the chain cover that you removed, you will need to torque those bolts at 104 in-lb.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by az3200

.....So that's where I'm at now. CCT mechanism seems to be working properly. Still WAY too much slack on the chain.

Sometimes, especially if the guides are so worn, the chain has not stretched up to its allowed limit, but the tensioner cannot put any pressure on it since the rocker is hitting the crankcase impeding any further adjusting movement; this article explains why:

http://www.kriegercamchaintensioners.com/

The way to verify if that is actually happening in this case:
Rotate the engine and find a point that shows good chain's slack.
Push all the way down on that L-shape rocker-pivot (careful not to brake it), keep some pressure there.
Check if the slack remains or your pressure on that rocker has eliminated it completely.

Originally Posted by az3200

I noticed depending on how the engine is cranked is when the CCT is actually effective?

What happens is that the cams are pushed by the springs of the valves for certain angular position, putting more or less tension on each branch of the chain.

Do not quit now, you are going to fix your bike !!!

[az3200]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Do not quit now !!!

So, the chain guide that the CCT actuates could be so worn that it doesn't put enough tension on the chain? Maybe so considering the condition of the top guide I posted a picture of (By the way, is that guide still usable or worn too much?)

Do not quit now?! haha I don't even know where to begin anymore or what to check. I don't have money to go replacing a bunch of parts to see if that's where to problem lies. I pretty much have it in my head that my bike needs a new cam chain(though I still haven't found a darn measuring device in this house yet). Which to me seems like a impossible feat to accomplish. Based on what I've explained here, what would your next step be? I think I know. The chain needs to be measured. My girlfriend is coming over soon, i'm gonna have her run me up to the store. How would you measure it, with a tape measure or ruler...or it doesn't matter?

[az3200]

Originally Posted by Motofool

The way to verify if that is actually happening in this case:
Rotate the engine and find a point that shows good chain's slack.
Push all the way down on that L-shape rocker-pivot (careful not to brake it), keep some pressure there.
Check if the slack remains or your pressure on that rocker has eliminated it completely.

Hmm I was actually trying that earlier before you had posted it. I noticed when i found good slack, applied pressure to the L rocker pivot, it would tighten the chain some, but the chain would still have slack in it.

I NEED TO MEASURE THE CHAIN lol

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by az3200

.......How would you measure it, with a tape measure or ruler...or it doesn't matter?

Who needs money when you have a girlfriend and a bike?

A caliper is more precise, but a ruler would do in a pinch.

http://www.harborfreight.com/catalog...sult?q=caliper

Yes, new guides will help some, as well as modifying that L-shape rocker.

We are driving you crazy with all these verifications and measurements because if you really need a chain, much more money will need to be used, since you will need either to split the engine or replace it.

You can always put everything back together and ride slowly to commute.

[az3200]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Who needs money when you have a girlfriend and a bike?

Yes, new guides will help some, as well as modifying that L-shape rocker.

We are driving you crazy with all these verifications and measurements because if you really need a chain, much more money will need to be used, since you will need either to split the engine or replace it.

lol you'd be surprised.

What do you mean by modifying the L-shape rocker?

Haha you guys aren't driving me crazy, I want to make sure I'm doing this right as well. I really appreciate all the help I've been given, I haven't once been annoyed. What's driving me crazy is I feel like I'm not getting anywhere with this. Ok, I feel like there is only one more thing to do before I keep posting and stressing and that's measure this damn chain. then once I get the measurements just go from there...

If I did need to replace the chain, why would much more money be needed? Isn't the chain only $40-$60 new? is it MANDATORY the engine be dismantled?

I watched this video on youtube of a guy who cut the old chain, and left it in the engine. He then cut the new chain, pushed out one of the pins, attached the new and old chain, and then fed it through the engine. Apparently he welded the new chain back once it was wrapped around the engine. Seems logical, I just have no way to weld it and it seems like it would be considerably weaker.. Why didn't they make these chains with a master link.. or do they?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkSl0ZUDnZc

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by az3200

What do you mean by modifying the L-shape rocker?
That is explained in the link of post #19.

What's driving me crazy is I feel like I'm not getting anywhere with this. Ok, I feel like there is only one more thing to do before I keep posting and stressing and that's measure this damn chain. then once I get the measurements just go from there...
Yes, of course, you need to know the condition of the chain first.

If I did need to replace the chain, why would much more money be needed? Isn't the chain only $40-$60 new? is it MANDATORY the engine be dismantled?
You will need to buy non-reusable parts like gaskets and also special tools. You will need much time and some illuminated room to work for several days.

I watched this video on youtube of a guy who cut the old chain, and left it in the engine.........Seems logical, but the results are non-predictable (heat greatly weakens any chain) and a catastrophic failure could happen anytime.

Why didn't they make these chains with a master link.. or do they?
No, such link is not available. Mainly due to the high speed that this chain reaches while directly attached around a crankshaft able to spin at 12,000 rpm.

[n4mwd]

I saw the old guy with the cam chain video before. Its tempting, but don't do it. Doing something like that might be OK for an old dirt bike, but its not OK for a high tolerance engine. Just so you know, the tolerance inside a car engine is measured in hundredths and sometimes thousandths of an inch. In a Ninja 250, the tolerance is measured in microns - that's 1/1,000,000 of an meter. There is no room for error.

Sadly, if you have to replace the chain, it means you have to split the crank case to do it right. There is a cam chain retainer around the crankshaft that prevents the chain from coming out. And if you are going to do all that work to split the engine, its time to rebuild it and replace all the bearings. You are probably looking at $500 before its all said and done. But if you do it right, you will have a brand new engine. Do it wrong and you just burned $500 and a lot of time. When I rebuilt my 2007 it took several months due to the fact that I had to order parts and wait for them to come in, then I'd find that I needed another part.

Lets hope you don't have to change the cam chain.

But regarding your cam chain, did you try removing the CCT and pushing on the L shaped rocker inside the CCT hole to see if it has ANY effect on the cam chain? Even a worn out one should have some noticeable effect even if its not enough.

Basically, we are trying to determine if the tensioner can take up the slack or not. If the CCT is bad, then its just a few cheap parts and you are back in business. The complete tensioner assembly with all the parts brand new from the dealer is about $35.

[az3200]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Lets hope you don't have to change the cam chain.

But regarding your cam chain, did you try removing the CCT and pushing on the L shaped rocker inside the CCT hole to see if it has ANY effect on the cam chain? Even a worn out one should have some noticeable effect even if its not enough.

Basically, we are trying to determine if the tensioner can take up the slack or not. If the CCT is bad, then its just a few cheap parts and you are back in business. The complete tensioner assembly with all the parts brand new from the dealer is about $35.

WOW! $500 to install a $50 cam chain? YIKES! Even then it sounds like quite a job. At $500 I'd probably try to put a new engine in, and if I don't do that you can find my bike in the dumpster down the street. Just kidding, you might find it on craigslist though. I LOVE my bike though. I don't want to get rid of it

Regarding the CCT. Yes I did have the CCT removed today with the cam chain exposed. I didn't really look for anything to push the L-shape rocker, so I used the plunger from the CCT to push on that rocker. What I noticed is that it depends on how the engine is cranked. At first it was in a down position, I pushed the plunger in but it wouldn't come back up. I cranked the engine a little, and tried again. The L-Shape rocker moved down and up like it's supposed to. It felt like it had some tension on it so it seems like that part is working. I'll have to double check in the morning (bike is still taken apart), but I think even then when i pushed the plunger on the L-shape rocker, there was still too much slack on the chain. It seemed no matter how I tried it, there was always too much slack on that chain. The only time it seemed tight was when the engine was cranked to a certain position.

I'll double check that tomorrow, but before that I plan on running up to lowes or wal mart to find a caliper to measure the chain. I'm going to cry if it's stretched too much, and honestly I dont have the means or knowledge to replace the chain. As much as I hate it, I'll have to sell the bike (((((

[n4mwd]

I suggest that you take a gamble and buy a complete CCT assembly from the dealer. Your local dealer, Champions Powersports, has them for ordering for $45. RonAyers has them for $35 + $10 shipping. Then ride it until it explodes. Honestly, a new engine goes for about $500-$800.

[lowdown112]

How much would this cost to get done?

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by lowdown112

How much would this cost to get done?

probably less than 50 dollars with shipping.

[baxtc1]

Just a reference to the upper chain guide, you can see the wear from the chain in the bottom of the original groove, but compare that to a new one. Here is a brand new one,
not yet fitted, they do have the groove from new.
[IMG][/IMG]

[n4mwd]

Thanks Robert. I was wondering about that. Looks like his upper chain guide isn't worn out after all.

[baxtc1]

As long as the plastic is not cracked or damaged it should be good to run for a while yet.
I will try to put up a pic of all three guides, just for a reference. No point spending money on something that isn't needed.
[IMG][/IMG]

[az3200]

Originally Posted by baxtc1

Just a reference to the upper chain guide, you can see the wear from the chain in the bottom of the original groove, but compare that to a new one. Here is a brand new one,
not yet fitted, they do have the groove from new.

Hey, thanks a lot! You just saved me $30 I don't have! Really sad, but true :/

Are these new pictures you took or old? Just wondering if you are about to install them. Where the old ones worn or broken?

[baxtc1]

I took the pictures tonight, I will be fitting a new chain, guides, pistons and rings in a couple of weeks.