On vision, focus, and reference points

[Sirref]

Disclaimer: this is track focused, though much, if not all, of it can apply to street riding as well.

Some of the most critical skills with riding aren't the concrete physical techniques like body positioning, quick turn, throttle control, braking and all the little tricks we do to try to gain tenths here and there. I've noticed a distinct lack of conversation about the effects of vision and focus in recent memory. As it is something I am constantly attempting to improve myself, I figured it deserves a thread.

Vision is the single most important aspect of riding a motorcycle in a controlled and consistent manner. It is also one of, if not the, most difficult tools to master. There is only one rule of thumb, to look where you want to go. Beyond that one rule it is up to each of use to decide exactly where to look, our vision affects everything we do and how we do it. However, within the landscape of the track ahead of us there are many things to see, this is where the next point comes into play.

While we see many things on the road ahead we need to choose what we wish to turn our focus towards, in it's purest form this is the goal of weeding out all of our distractions. But what is left when you remove all distractions from your vision with your focus? Your reference points are left. In an ideal world riding track is riding from point to point to point, each point having it's own set of reference points that allows for riding in a controlled and predictable manner between and through each point. Braking points, tip in points, apexes, throttle roll on points, and exit points are all included in this.

This thread is meant for a discussion of improving visual skills and ways to train focus. There is little more confidence inspiring than being able to hold your line and increase pace little by little to find the limits, visual skills are the key to achieving this.

[rojoracing53]

One method is called visualizing your lap time. You close your eyes and picture yourself completing a lap while also timing your lap, no peeking. It's said a good rider can visualize within one second of their idea lap time. If your fast then you don't have enough reference points and if your long you have too many. Honestly I have no idea how someone could be too long as I am always like 50% fast. I'll admit I ride with minimal reference points, could have said that before trying this little exercise. It didn't help me but I may help you.

I know where taking about the track here and that fine but he's my take on the street which is very different. On track you focus intensely on one to a very few things while everything else is automatic like shifting and body position. On the street I feel you need to distribute that intense focus almost equally across 8 different things. Shifting and body stuff are still auto but now you need to watch all 4 directions, watch your line, predicting 4 other people's future moves based on an ever changing flow of traffic. You need to have the capacity to take all that in fluidly and still have two or three options on hand depending on how things play out. Growing up with my family this all becomes second nature because we do this car or bike 100% of the time. It's not done 100% subconscious but it's far from a constant conscious effort, it's like 50-50 if that makes sense. If you can't think like this then your going to find yourself in a lot more close calls then someone like me.

Back to the track
If your racing then you have to also have the free capacity to strategize you plan of attack against other riders. In doing so you also have predict how they may respond and what your next response will be. We call this race craft and the better you are the smoother to can ride around your opponents. I'm extremely good at this which has always given me a huge advantage during endurance races. I watch a riders every twitch as I catch them and analyze their style and lines then choose one of two options of passing before I get there. There is so much visual info out there for your eyes to grab, the question is can you process it all.

[Sirref]

I've attempted visualization with the same results, 50-75% fast with the exception of my best track which is only ~33% fast

I've thought like that on street since I first started driving, though it does take more conscious effort than you've stated it takes for you (interestingly enough it's easier on a bike than in a car)

My racecraft is very weak, typically it takes me a lot of effort to pass people after I catch them, even if I catch them quickly. Much of that is due to me having less comfort being off line as well as not being able to perfectly predict each rider's movements like you said. I suppose a lot of that is due to almost completely ignoring the rider and focusing on the track to ride as fast as I can up until I get to them

[CaliGrrl]

Working on this myself. Looking all directions at the same time.

[rojoracing53]

You guys are still on the old dual core processors, you need to upgrade to an eight core at the minimum.

[csmith12]

Let's bump this thread, because we do talk about vision from time to time but rarely focus.

As your visual focus improves and can narrow in an instant, you can finally see the track and events on the track in let's somewhat say... "HD" (high visual detail) format. This is both good and bad, can anyone tell me why?

Here I will give hint at the bad answer for free...
If your visually focused on something, then really ask yourself how much your peripheral vision is lying to you? (hint: a la blinders on a horse style)

[csmith12]

Hmmm... crickets I see.

Easier question then, what part of your vision does your brain perceive as moving faster? Your focal point in vision or your peripheral?

And if you want to prep for the next question, google up "priming". Lemme give you a clue and secret of what I mean. The reason my clients ride well on the track with me and make progress, is because I "prime" them to do so ahead of time, starting in the paddock. And you can do it too, starting with your vision. An easy example of visual priming is following a rider that is showing you "the race line" around a track. So what else can you prime up ahead of time?

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Let's bump this thread, because we do talk about vision from time to time but rarely focus.

As your visual focus improves and can narrow in an instant, you can finally see the track and events on the track in let's somewhat say... "HD" (high visual detail) format. This is both good and bad, can anyone tell me why?

Here I will give hint at the bad answer for free...
If your visually focused on something, then really ask yourself how much your peripheral vision is lying to you? (hint: a la blinders on a horse style)

This is good because it allows you to approach each point with confidence, I also personally love this view despite it's downsides since it "slows things down" for me. The downside of this is that I went through a corner 3 wide once without even knowing I was 3 wide visually (I heard someone around but not sure where) despite that there was a rider on either side of me that I didn't quite notice despite one of them being within my peripheral vision.

In addition to this in long sweepers when your focus is too far down and you are relying on peripheral vision to tell where you are on the track it is an easy trap to find yourself hugging the inside tighter than you intended to and end up clipping the kerb/grass

Originally Posted by csmith12

Hmmm... crickets I see.

Easier question then, what part of your vision does your brain perceive as moving faster? Your focal point in vision or your peripheral?

And if you want to prep for the next question, google up "priming". Lemme give you a clue and secret of what I mean. The reason my clients ride well on the track with me and make progress, is because I "prime" them to do so ahead of time, starting in the paddock. And you can do it too, starting with your vision. An easy example of visual priming is following a rider that is showing you "the race line" around a track. So what else can you prime up ahead of time?

Been busy hahahaha

The peripheral vision appears to be moving faster as there is less information being gathered about it from the eyes, the act of widening our vision and being more aware of our surroundings is the act of gathering more information from our peripheral vision

Priming is a hell of a subject that I am looking forward to as it can strongly affect the mental side of the sport, an area that I feel I am lacking in.

One idea of priming is to concentrate your mind to the goal at hand, say you are intending to work on being smoother on the throttle at corner exit. Before going out to ride you would be thinking about how you intend to be smoother on the throttle and out on track that thought process would continue and you would naturally place more focus on the skill you are intending to work on (or the part of the track you are figuring out)

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Sirref

Disclaimer: this is track focused, though much, if not all, of it can apply to street riding as well.

This thread is meant for a discussion of improving visual skills and ways to train focus. There is little more confidence inspiring than being able to hold your line and increase pace little by little to find the limits, visual skills are the key to achieving this.

I agree that visual skills are the most important tool for riding consistently and well. Too many riders put too little focus on improving visual skills as they believe it's better to ride by "feel" or that seat time will make them better. While part of this is true, it is necessary to continuously WORK on improving your visual skills. Poor visual skills in = poor control outputs. So, how do you work on getting better visual skills.

1. You talk about reference points and these are key to track riding. Essentially you do end up riding point to point so the more specific and exact your references points are, the more consistent you can be. One way to get better at finding, implementing and remembering your reference points is to DRAW THE TRACK.

This is something Keith made me do when he was coaching me through my first and second year of AMA racing. My first year there were several tracks that I had NEVER ridden on. I showed up on Thursday morning for a practice day and had to qualify for AMA 600 Supersport the next day. So I had to learn the track fast, and the way I did this was to DRAW The track so I could see where I lacked solid RP's and where I could fill in the blanks.

Have you ever drawn the track? What other benefits can you get form drawing the track?

Originally Posted by Sirref

I've attempted visualization with the same results, 50-75% fast with the exception of my best track which is only ~33% fast

I've thought like that on street since I first started driving, though it does take more conscious effort than you've stated it takes for you (interestingly enough it's easier on a bike than in a car)

My racecraft is very weak, typically it takes me a lot of effort to pass people after I catch them, even if I catch them quickly. Much of that is due to me having less comfort being off line as well as not being able to perfectly predict each rider's movements like you said. I suppose a lot of that is due to almost completely ignoring the rider and focusing on the track to ride as fast as I can up until I get to them

This suggests two things to me. 1. You need to break out of your comfort zone and ride OFF line so you know for certain what it will be like to turn corners from less than ideal lines. How else might riding OFF line and exploring the track from different vantage points help with your ability to pass?

2. Your vision is probably narrowing down to focus on the rider in front of you. What can you do to remedy this?



Misti

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by Sirref

My racecraft is very weak, typically it takes me a lot of effort to pass people after I catch them, even if I catch them quickly. Much of that is due to me having less comfort being off line as well as not being able to perfectly predict each rider's movements like you said. I suppose a lot of that is due to almost completely ignoring the rider and focusing on the track to ride as fast as I can up until I get to them

Are you talking track days or racing (many track day riders are just there for fun)?
I would pass track day riders coming out of the turns and race day riders going into the turn. Whether you pass inside or outside depends on the turn. If you catch a rider and don't pass them right away they know you are there and usually are thinking of you besides their line on the track. A track day rider could get flustered and a race day rider might try to block. Either way make your commitment and stick to it. If you caught them that fast you have the advantage of passing before they know you are there. Just make sure you are not going to take both you and them out.

If you do track days try riding off line, coming in to a turn wide and also coming in tight. Just remember coming in tight and pasing on the inside could cause a wide exit or tucking the front end and hitting the rider you are passing.

[Sirref]

@Misti when you say to draw the track do you mean draw the line or do you mean to actually draw the corners and what you see from your turn in point like a landscape

I have done the former a few times and have noticed it's effect since it helped me focus more on my overall plan around the track and focus on the bigger picture. I was talking with TPM's Glen Goldman yesterday about sacrificing a little speed in one of the fastest corners at njmp to get a better entry into the following corner (only on the little bikes) because the little bikes don't have the power to get drive out of that corner the extra entry speed is needed.

1. I made it a point in practice yesterday to break off line. Breaking off line helped a lot with my comfort in understanding how my entries affected my exits, it also helped me a lot in the race to have comfort to ride out the corners and more understanding of when I could get on the throttle if I made a slight error in my entry due to pushing.

I had a coach follow me around and his synopsis of my riding was simply that I needed to break out of my comfort zone and trust myself more. Still working on that but focusing on just doing a little better each lap has helped quite a bit already

2. Reaffirming focus on reference points is the remedy, this allows for your peripheral vision to locate the other riders and also prevents you from being swallowed up into their rhythm, while breaking your own

@cc_cowboy I'm talking both, it's actually easier for me to pass while racing since I'm in a mental state of needing to get around them rather than kind of wanting to during a track day session

also thank you for the reminder, it helped out a lot to consider my exits as I decided how I wanted to enter each corner.


I learned a lot yesterday from playing around with my line choice rather than riding with my normal lines which I would typically never deviate from

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Sirref

I'm talking both, it's actually easier for me to pass while racing since I'm in a mental state of needing to get around them rather than kind of wanting to during a track day session

I will not spoil Misti's questions, but there should be NO difference in your riding between a race vs track day. Now... your attitude and etiquette on track should be VERY different. I posted in another thread...

Fear (sr's) and inspiration are peers. One holds you back, the other sets you free.

Reread my passing post in the "challenge me" thread. You will find most of what has been posted here already covered there.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Sirref

@Misti when you say to draw the track do you mean draw the line or do you mean to actually draw the corners and what you see from your turn in point like a landscape

I have done the former a few times and have noticed it's effect since it helped me focus more on my overall plan around the track and focus on the bigger picture. I was talking with TPM's Glen Goldman yesterday about sacrificing a little speed in one of the fastest corners at njmp to get a better entry into the following corner (only on the little bikes) because the little bikes don't have the power to get drive out of that corner the extra entry speed is needed.

1. I made it a point in practice yesterday to break off line. Breaking off line helped a lot with my comfort in understanding how my entries affected my exits, it also helped me a lot in the race to have comfort to ride out the corners and more understanding of when I could get on the throttle if I made a slight error in my entry due to pushing.

I had a coach follow me around and his synopsis of my riding was simply that I needed to break out of my comfort zone and trust myself more. Still working on that but focusing on just doing a little better each lap has helped quite a bit already

2. Reaffirming focus on reference points is the remedy, this allows for your peripheral vision to locate the other riders and also prevents you from being swallowed up into their rhythm, while breaking your own

@cc_cowboy I'm talking both, it's actually easier for me to pass while racing since I'm in a mental state of needing to get around them rather than kind of wanting to during a track day session

also thank you for the reminder, it helped out a lot to consider my exits as I decided how I wanted to enter each corner.


I learned a lot yesterday from playing around with my line choice rather than riding with my normal lines which I would typically never deviate from

This sounds great!!! When I say draw the track I mean get out a blank piece of paper and without looking at a track map, draw the entire track from memory and then add any reference points that you have (apex markers, brake markers, trees or skid marks or bridges or signs or whatever YOU use to get yourself around). From there you can usually see a pattern. The areas on your map that you have a lot of solid reference points are typically the ones that you feel the most comfortable with while the other areas are usually more vague.

I'm really happy to hear that changing up your lines helped you feel more confident. This is HUGE and is something I even did during my AMA racing, so that I KNEW exactly how I had to alter my riding if I passed up the inside of a corner, or if I was pushed out wide....

Now, as for trusting yourself more and breaking out of your comfort zone....it's not usually something you can just do...it comes from improving specific things so that you DO feel more confident.

Think about it this way, if you KNEW exactly where you wanted to be and exactly where you wanted to go on the track, do you think you would trust yourself more to be able to get there? IF you had exact braking markers and points to aim for would you feel more confident carrying more speed? IF you had excellent vision that remained wide and didn't narrow down or succumb to tunnel vision, would you be able to go fast without even feeling like you were going faster?

See where I'm heading with this?

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by Misti

Think about it this way, if you KNEW exactly where you wanted to be and exactly where you wanted to go on the track, do you think you would trust yourself more to be able to get there? IF you had exact braking markers and points to aim for would you feel more confident carrying more speed? IF you had excellent vision that remained wide and didn't narrow down or succumb to tunnel vision, would you be able to go fast without even feeling like you were going faster?

See where I'm heading with this?

Yes, but not until I've done it. I've found that things that I know I can do are very difficult to do until I've done them. Once I've done them it's easy to do again and again. At NJMP I feel as though I know exactly where I want to be and where I want to go. Vision that remains wide is critical, without that you will always feel faster while going slower. I like to think of that as a camera vs vision thing. When watching video you don't get the same sense of speed, largely because of how much your vision narrows down while the camera never does that. It's great for reference to see how wide you're keeping your vision.

also here's some video from the 7-11 race. I went a good bit quicker on last sunday but haven't had a chance to go through that video yet

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Sirref

Yes, but not until I've done it. I've found that things that I know I can do are very difficult to do until I've done them. Once I've done them it's easy to do again and again. At NJMP I feel as though I know exactly where I want to be and where I want to go. Vision that remains wide is critical, without that you will always feel faster while going slower. I like to think of that as a camera vs vision thing. When watching video you don't get the same sense of speed, largely because of how much your vision narrows down while the camera never does that. It's great for reference to see how wide you're keeping your vision.

also here's some video from the 7-11 race. I went a good bit quicker on last sunday but haven't had a chance to go through that video yet

Link to original page on YouTube.

OK cool, I'll try to find some time tonight to check it out!

Misti

[Sirref]

I also started really getting into drawing the track. The mental visualization involved in drawing the track is helping immensely. I have 2 days at nyst now and am running 1-2s off of the 600cc expert pace. It's a combination of multiple reasons but I feel that drawing the track has accelerated my learning of the track immensely. There's video of that as well on my channel. I also managed to greatly improve my times at summit point with this technique, though I couldn't find a line through the bumpy T1 that I could hold speed through without feeling like I would tuck the front so I ended up getting passed in T1 a lot during the race

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Sirref

I also started really getting into drawing the track. The mental visualization involved in drawing the track is helping immensely. I have 2 days at nyst now and am running 1-2s off of the 600cc expert pace. It's a combination of multiple reasons but I feel that drawing the track has accelerated my learning of the track immensely. There's video of that as well on my channel. I also managed to greatly improve my times at summit point with this technique, though I couldn't find a line through the bumpy T1 that I could hold speed through without feeling like I would tuck the front so I ended up getting passed in T1 a lot during the race

Great to hear that drawing the track has been helping! It really is such a powerful tool that more people should use it and use it often. Each time you ride if you draw the track and add your reference points you will get a much better idea of where you are confident and where you are vague with your understanding of the track. And the more RP's you have, the more consistent you will be!

I watched your video! (so sorry it took me so long!) Hard to tell exactly what you are doing as it is from your perspective and so I can't see YOU...but I did notice a few things. First of all take a listen to when you get on the throttle, it's a bit of a theme. Ideally, when do you want to get on the gas in a corner?

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by Misti

Great to hear that drawing the track has been helping! It really is such a powerful tool that more people should use it and use it often. Each time you ride if you draw the track and add your reference points you will get a much better idea of where you are confident and where you are vague with your understanding of the track. And the more RP's you have, the more consistent you will be!

I watched your video! (so sorry it took me so long!) Hard to tell exactly what you are doing as it is from your perspective and so I can't see YOU...but I did notice a few things. First of all take a listen to when you get on the throttle, it's a bit of a theme. Ideally, when do you want to get on the gas in a corner?

It was really interesting, the first few times I drew the track I found myself forgetting an entire corner, and I still can't gauge how long the straights are but I'm learning a lot from it. I've started sharing it with many of my fellow track day friends since there's so much to learn from such a simple concept.

That's actually something I have been working on, trying to open the throttle the moment I have reached my maximum lean for the corner. Sometimes that is at the apex, sometimes it is before, and sometimes after (with a few passing lines) Some corners this isn't quite possible to open it up right away though due to how long you stay leaned over but in the vast majority of corners it is helping my exit speeds quite a bit.

I still feel my greatest weakness to be in corner entry as it is a delicate balance between maintaining high entrance speeds while not charging the corners and losing drive out due to excessive entry speeds. This continues to be a vision issue that I am working out. I wish I had another track day to spend working on this before my races this weekend

[nickjpass]

I find that looking as far away as possible makes me feel more comfortable.

At NYST in the back section, corners 8-11, I will use the corner working tower as a reference point, and even as I go into 8,9, or 10, that's where my field of vision is.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Sirref

It was really interesting, the first few times I drew the track I found myself forgetting an entire corner, and I still can't gauge how long the straights are but I'm learning a lot from it. I've started sharing it with many of my fellow track day friends since there's so much to learn from such a simple concept.

That's actually something I have been working on, trying to open the throttle the moment I have reached my maximum lean for the corner. Sometimes that is at the apex, sometimes it is before, and sometimes after (with a few passing lines) Some corners this isn't quite possible to open it up right away though due to how long you stay leaned over but in the vast majority of corners it is helping my exit speeds quite a bit.

I still feel my greatest weakness to be in corner entry as it is a delicate balance between maintaining high entrance speeds while not charging the corners and losing drive out due to excessive entry speeds. This continues to be a vision issue that I am working out. I wish I had another track day to spend working on this before my races this weekend

I'm not sure I understand the comment " not possible to open it up right away due to how long you stay leaned over." You are right when you say that you want to get on the gas ASAP once the bike is turned, or pointed in the direction you want to go. Sometimes that is at the apex, sometimes before...but it doesn't have anything to do with how long the bike is leaned over for. You can be rolling on the gas, and should be rolling on the gas all the way through a corner, even if you are at max lean angle through the turn. There are several examples in the video of times when you could have been on the gas sooner, that you weren't.

Now, you also say that you have issues with entry speed. Entry speed is tied closely to throttle control in that you will be hard pressed to get on the gas asap if you feel like you have gone into the turn with too much entry speed.

So, as you are approaching a corner, WHEN do you look into the turn and WHAT do you look at?

Originally Posted by nickjpass

I find that looking as far away as possible makes me feel more comfortable.

At NYST in the back section, corners 8-11, I will use the corner working tower as a reference point, and even as I go into 8,9, or 10, that's where my field of vision is.

There is a misconception about looking as far ahead as possible, this is only beneficial at certain times. Having reference points like you listed is good because you can certainly get lost if you try to look too far ahead too soon.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by Misti

I'm not sure I understand the comment " not possible to open it up right away due to how long you stay leaned over." You are right when you say that you want to get on the gas ASAP once the bike is turned, or pointed in the direction you want to go. Sometimes that is at the apex, sometimes before...but it doesn't have anything to do with how long the bike is leaned over for. You can be rolling on the gas, and should be rolling on the gas all the way through a corner, even if you are at max lean angle through the turn. There are several examples in the video of times when you could have been on the gas sooner, that you weren't.

Now, you also say that you have issues with entry speed. Entry speed is tied closely to throttle control in that you will be hard pressed to get on the gas asap if you feel like you have gone into the turn with too much entry speed.

So, as you are approaching a corner, WHEN do you look into the turn and WHAT do you look at?

What I mean is to get on the gas any more than maintenance throttle as continuously feeding gas at full lean tends to run me wide so if I add throttle too soon I seem to run out of track and it prevents me from getting to full throttle as quickly as possible causing me to lose a bit of drive. I'm still on throttle but not really increasing it. This is the case for much longer corners for instance T5 at NCCAR where you stay at full lean for a whole 13 seconds or T5 at Summit Point where it takes longer to get the bike pointed in the direction you want to go despite being at maximum lean before that point (it's a tight double apex) I associated that with how long the bike is leaned over for because if I have the bike leaned over for longer then that means it took more time to get the bike pointed in the direction I want it to go. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this right.

To answer your other questions I look into the turn when I can see it, that is to say I look as far ahead as is rational. In some corners it is a bit easier as I first look for my braking point then look into the corner but for others I look into it either as I complete the corner before or as I am closing the distance to it down a straight. What I look at depends entirely on the corner. I'll run through a lap of NJMP:

T1 I am looking down the straight until the brake markers on the left come into view. Shortly before the brake markers I look in towards the raised curbing with the brake markers in my peripheral. I begin slowing at the 3rd brake marker (I can slow later but have less comfort in it as I can't see through the corner yet at that point) I turn in when I can see the opposite side curbing line up with the inside curbing and the tire wall on the inside. It's hard to describe but I'm looking for my exit angle as I'm entering.
T2 is a bit trickier I turn in as the curbing runs out on the left (peripheral vision) and follow it tight to the inside curbing trusting that I won't shoot myself wide
T3 I look for the large dark spot of pavement (I go over it every time I can) and from there I am looking at the apex of the left while I tip it in right. As I pick it up and throw it back left I look for the start of the inside curbing on the right
T4 I continue to use the curbing as my primary RP
T5 I find difficult as I cannot quite see through the corner until after I start braking so I tend to overbrake a bit and turn in earlier than I should. There isn't much to look at close to the track there on the inside to use as a reference
T6 and 7 I use timing based off of the brake markers on the outside as well as the curbing on the inside. T7 I look for both inside and outside curbing as I turn in before shifting my focus towards the flag station
T8 I continue looking to the flag station
T9 I look in towards the track post-exit and aim to be about mid-track before turning back to the left for T10 where I wait to line up the curbing for T11 where I clip both curbs
T12 I look towards the big yellow end of the guard rail before looking towards the outside edge of the track on exit

A lot of my vision and reference relies on my trial and error knowledge of my track positioning and how much I am able to turn the bike along with what speed I am able to ask of the bike through each corner. All of which I increase progressively over time learning the tracks.

[nickjpass]

Originally Posted by Misti

There is a misconception about looking as far ahead as possible, this is only beneficial at certain times. Having reference points like you listed is good because you can certainly get lost if you try to look too far ahead too soon.

Red is the corner working tower. Green represents the apexes.

I find the corner working tower after coming over the hill (the corner at the top right of the image). Finding the tower as I approach eight allows me to hit the rest of the section much more consistently. I still "find" the apexes, but having that reference point has really helped me a lot.



I still have a lot of trouble being able to see far enough ahead in some corners. I can't seem to see enough even with my new better helmet.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Sirref

What I mean is to get on the gas any more than maintenance throttle as continuously feeding gas at full lean tends to run me wide so if I add throttle too soon I seem to run out of track and it prevents me from getting to full throttle as quickly as possible causing me to lose a bit of drive. I'm still on throttle but not really increasing it. This is the case for much longer corners for instance T5 at NCCAR where you stay at full lean for a whole 13 seconds or T5 at Summit Point where it takes longer to get the bike pointed in the direction you want to go despite being at maximum lean before that point (it's a tight double apex) I associated that with how long the bike is leaned over for because if I have the bike leaned over for longer then that means it took more time to get the bike pointed in the direction I want it to go. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this right.

To answer your other questions I look into the turn when I can see it, that is to say I look as far ahead as is rational. In some corners it is a bit easier as I first look for my braking point then look into the corner but for others I look into it either as I complete the corner before or as I am closing the distance to it down a straight. What I look at depends entirely on the corner. I'll run through a lap of NJMP:

T1 I am looking down the straight until the brake markers on the left come into view. Shortly before the brake markers I look in towards the raised curbing with the brake markers in my peripheral. I begin slowing at the 3rd brake marker (I can slow later but have less comfort in it as I can't see through the corner yet at that point) I turn in when I can see the opposite side curbing line up with the inside curbing and the tire wall on the inside. It's hard to describe but I'm looking for my exit angle as I'm entering.
T2 is a bit trickier I turn in as the curbing runs out on the left (peripheral vision) and follow it tight to the inside curbing trusting that I won't shoot myself wide
T3 I look for the large dark spot of pavement (I go over it every time I can) and from there I am looking at the apex of the left while I tip it in right. As I pick it up and throw it back left I look for the start of the inside curbing on the right
T4 I continue to use the curbing as my primary RP
T5 I find difficult as I cannot quite see through the corner until after I start braking so I tend to overbrake a bit and turn in earlier than I should. There isn't much to look at close to the track there on the inside to use as a reference
T6 and 7 I use timing based off of the brake markers on the outside as well as the curbing on the inside. T7 I look for both inside and outside curbing as I turn in before shifting my focus towards the flag station
T8 I continue looking to the flag station
T9 I look in towards the track post-exit and aim to be about mid-track before turning back to the left for T10 where I wait to line up the curbing for T11 where I clip both curbs
T12 I look towards the big yellow end of the guard rail before looking towards the outside edge of the track on exit

A lot of my vision and reference relies on my trial and error knowledge of my track positioning and how much I am able to turn the bike along with what speed I am able to ask of the bike through each corner. All of which I increase progressively over time learning the tracks.

Ok, I get what you mean about delaying with the throttle in the longer sweeping turns, double apex turns etc. I don't know those corners exactly so I can't use them as reference but there are certainly corners where you have to pause on the gas as trying to roll on all the way through will put you wide.

As for your explanation of the reference points and what you are looking at, it sounds like you have some very solid RP's which is amazing. Many of the RP's you listed though sound like they are at the exit of the corner and as you are entering you are trying to pick up where you want to be on the exit. What about the middle of the corner? The first place you want to get to is the apex right? So, do you have a really solid RP at the apex of the corner? As you are approaching the turn, if you looked into the apex (before you actually turned the bike) would that give you all the information you needed about how much to turn the bike and would it help get you more consistent at the apex?

I'm just wondering if you might be trying to pick up the exit RP too early and are not focussing on the middle of the corner long enough. Food for thought, let me know what you think. I love these dialogues! (and PS. I may not be able to reply right away as I'll be riding bikes in Germany for the next 10 days )

[Sirref]

That actually does raise a good point, I do tend to focus on exits a lot more than the actual apexes.

Having not read this post until after my race weekend at summit point (last sat-today(mon)) I actually discovered this a little bit on my own with T1 at Summit Point. T1 is a very difficult corner after a long fast straight. It is tight, bumpy, and blind. My issue going in was braking far too early because I couldn't see the exit. After doing a track walk I learned a lot about the corner and found that I could use the apex as a focal point to help determine my closing speeds and turn in point. After the 15min practice session I had improved my entry to T1 dramatically and was finally hitting the line I wanted to without ever even looking at my exit point (it continues to curve right so looking farther out left wasn't ideal to begin with)

Across the next day (monday) I found myself passing people into T1 that I previously was passed by into the very same corner. I was able to brake far later and hold my line while maintaining the amount of momentum I wanted to through the corner. I even passed Brandon Paasch on the exit of T1 at one point in practice. He ended up going freakishly fast (3 seconds faster/lap) in the race though hahahahaha

[csmith12]

Right simple drill that I sometimes use to help riders understand how important vision and reference points are.

1. get a friend
2. have them hold their hand up and with your eyes open point to their hand, pretty simple no?
3. now close your eyes and ask them to move their hand once to a random location
4. now YOU try to point to their hand

Did you miss? Why? And how does this relate to riding?

/tip - do NOT over think the answer

[Sirref]

I'd guess the exact opposite spot from where the hand started

no way you can tell man, you can't do or go where you can't see

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Sirref

I'd guess the exact opposite spot from where the hand started

no way you can tell man, you can't do or go where you can't see

Guessing is not really an option... do you guess while riding? I hope not. The point is, if you don't know where you're going, you have no idea how much bar pressure to use, braking, ect... ect..

"See" what I mean...

[Sirref]

Oh I know guessing isn't an option, I was joking there since there is no way I could do it

[JohnnyBravo]

I see what he did there

[RacinNinja]

Hmmmm....my reference points have always been the apex of the next corner or defects in the track like a line or a patch. I don't use things like other people do like water towers, single trees, etc.

[jBazz]

Hey Nick - I'm going to look for this RP this weekend and see how I do with it. I love the pine tree when going over wheelie hill, which was the first time I ever used an RP above the track.

For me, I feel I need to work on focus more then vision, specifically picking more RP's for consistency. Looking far ahead helps some, but without RPs it's just a view of the track.

Originally Posted by nickjpass

Red is the corner working tower. Green represents the apexes.

I find the corner working tower after coming over the hill (the corner at the top right of the image). Finding the tower as I approach eight allows me to hit the rest of the section much more consistently. I still "find" the apexes, but having that reference point has really helped me a lot.



I still have a lot of trouble being able to see far enough ahead in some corners. I can't seem to see enough even with my new better helmet.

[nickjpass]

For wheelie hill I just aim for the cone at the top of the hill

[jBazz]

Originally Posted by nickjpass

For wheelie hill I just aim for the cone at the top of the hill

Uptown (CCW) yes, but downtown (CW) I like the tree because it sets your line up perfectly.

[nickjpass]

Originally Posted by jBazz

Uptown (CCW) yes, but downtown (CW) I like the tree because it sets your line up perfectly.

I've only ridden downtown once, I don't even remember the line really lol

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Sirref

That actually does raise a good point, I do tend to focus on exits a lot more than the actual apexes.

Having not read this post until after my race weekend at summit point (last sat-today(mon)) I actually discovered this a little bit on my own with T1 at Summit Point. T1 is a very difficult corner after a long fast straight. It is tight, bumpy, and blind. My issue going in was braking far too early because I couldn't see the exit. After doing a track walk I learned a lot about the corner and found that I could use the apex as a focal point to help determine my closing speeds and turn in point. After the 15min practice session I had improved my entry to T1 dramatically and was finally hitting the line I wanted to without ever even looking at my exit point (it continues to curve right so looking farther out left wasn't ideal to begin with)

Across the next day (monday) I found myself passing people into T1 that I previously was passed by into the very same corner. I was able to brake far later and hold my line while maintaining the amount of momentum I wanted to through the corner. I even passed Brandon Paasch on the exit of T1 at one point in practice. He ended up going freakishly fast (3 seconds faster/lap) in the race though hahahahaha

EXCELLENT!!!! When we talk about reference points we talk about having a minimum of three for each corner, turn in, apex and exit. If you try to look to the exit before you have pinpointed the apex, or before you know that you will arrive at the apex then you end up feeling lost and uncertain about where you are going.

Coming up to a corner and spotting the apex gives you a clear location of where you want to end up, helps improve consistency of your line and also helps maintain your entry speed (as you learned) because you are looking where you want to go. Great discovery!

Do you have a solid reference point for where you want to begin applying the brakes?

[Sirref]

Braking is where I am most comfortable with my reference points. Largely due to being on a 300 I have a lot of time to scan for good braking points should they be needed. Generally I try to push my braking points back as much as possible in the smallest possible increments
@csmith12 has a great writeup on braking on this site which sums up what I try to do

Doing this at njmp T1 and T5 has pushed my braking points back as much as 100ft in each corner across my last 3 days there. I'm braking for t1 at the 2 marker instead of the 3 marker and I'm figuring out how to get to the 1 marker which is where the front expert pack brakes.

Unfortunately a large part of racing a 300 is the avoidance of braking so I don't get much practice with it as I would like

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Sirref

Braking is where I am most comfortable with my reference points. Largely due to being on a 300 I have a lot of time to scan for good braking points should they be needed. Generally I try to push my braking points back as much as possible in the smallest possible increments
@csmith12 has a great writeup on braking on this site which sums up what I try to do

Doing this at njmp T1 and T5 has pushed my braking points back as much as 100ft in each corner across my last 3 days there. I'm braking for t1 at the 2 marker instead of the 3 marker and I'm figuring out how to get to the 1 marker which is where the front expert pack brakes.

Unfortunately a large part of racing a 300 is the avoidance of braking so I don't get much practice with it as I would like

What about where you want to come OFF the brakes?

[Sirref]

Coming off the brakes is something I do by listening to my front tire and feeling what it wants to do. I don't have a specific reference point for it but I do know within a few feet or so where I typically am releasing the last little bit of brakes. So I know where I'm doing it well enough to know if I've screwed it up but not from a specific rp, just from having done it so many times by feel and knowing where I am