How To Hang On Aa You Hang Off Your Motorcycle On The Track

[nickjpass]

Courtesy of Bike Minds

http://tinyurl.com/bikemindsarticle

A photo of a rider at NYST at the bottom

[csmith12]

Pretty good read there!

[adouglas]

[tgold]

The best thing about that article is that it explains why hanging off is important.

On the minus side, I constantly see riders putting so much emphasis on body position that they seriously neglect too many other things.

IMO body position is not the cornerstone of good riding technique. How we approach our riding mentally and how we are able to process what we are doing on a bike is the most important thing. Because our thinking process applies to every physical aspect of what we are doing on the bike and not just body position.

Having said that, my recent experience experimenting with body position while endurance racing along with a few bits of good info in the article are influencing my decision to put a little more emphasis on refining my own technique in that area.

[adouglas]

Fair point, but given that mental approach is not a physical skill, what if we take it as a given that the rider has the right mindset? You could say the same thing about any skills article, from throttle control to braking to vision and line selection.

If we flip the observation on its head and overemphasize mental prep without addressing proper technique, then it's possible to develop bad habits that are hard to break and could limit progress. If the fundamentals are established early and well, learning accelerates because it's not necessary to go back and revisit those basic skills that should have been there in the first place.

Does this mean that I'm making the opposite argument, that physical skills development trumps mental prep? Absolutely not. IMHO both are very important. I also believe that physical skills development benefits mental development. Why? Because practicing good body position (as well as all the other basic skills) until it's second nature frees the rider's attention to focus on other things.

I found the article really good because it vividly describes weighting and foot position and also how weight shifts. The value of this is easily seen in a few recent threads from new track riders who were asking about this very topic.

[tgold]

I wouldn't take the proper mindset as a given because it often is not. And to clarify a little more, I'm not talking about mental preparation specifically. I'm talking about how we are thinking while we are on the bike. Trying to compartmentalize the mental and physical like you are describing is not possible. You can think but not take physical action, but you cannot take physical action without thinking.

I just had a friend text me yesterday about how he was going to work on body position today because he has been gripping the bars too tightly. I can tell you right now the problem isn't body position, but what he is thinking about that causes him to grip the bars too tightly. His time would be better spent backing off a bit and working on relaxing more.

[JohnnyBravo]

[nickjpass]

Hanging off is really starting to become effortless, at quicker speeds it's so easy now, compared to when I first started riding at the track.

[JohnnyBravo]

I'm all nervous an excited about goin to the track... Gota put on ya big boy pants sometime

[nickjpass]

Originally Posted by JohnnyBravo

I'm all nervous an excited about goin to the track... Gota put on ya big boy pants sometime

You haven't ridden yet? Today I realized I'm really addicted I have been considering selling my other material possessions for this hobby

anyone want to buy some guitars?

[JohnnyBravo]

Originally Posted by nickjpass

You haven't ridden yet? Today I realized I'm really addicted I have been considering selling my other material possessions for this hobby

anyone want to buy some guitars?

No :/

Something always came up when I was going too

It looks like it's all set for the 10-11th though
do the corner workers at the track take cards or cash only???

[nickjpass]

Originally Posted by JohnnyBravo

No :/

Something always came up when I was going too

It looks like it's all set for the 10-11th though
do the corner workers at the track take cards or cash only???

what track

[JohnnyBravo]

Originally Posted by nickjpass

what track

NcBike... It's only like 14 hours; come on down

[shift957]

Pretty good read, however, there are parts I disagree with from the schooling I've taken and personal experience on track.

The first thing I'm going to disagree with is the "one whole butt cheek off" (or slightly more as stated in the article). For shorter rides that's fine. But watching riders on track who hang a whole cheek off, I can physically see their compensation of hanging onto the bars in the afternoon, as their core muscles are tired and unable to handle the demand of most of their body weight needing more support.

Yes, the PROS do it. But they train every day for riding. It is after all, their job. When I was in the gym 4-5 days a week earlier this year, I too could hang off a cheek + for 2 out of 3 sessions per hour during a track day. I was training my core muscles and adductor muscles specifically for riding, along with the rest of my body. I haven't made it into the gym but a few times in the past 3 months. Can I hang off like that now (all day)? Hells no. By lunch, I'd be tired and compensating -- which puts input into the clip ons and is not good!

If you train in the gym regularly, hang off like a monkey! You can probably do it without fatiguing much. For the rest of us, moderation is the key. There is no "you're butt goes HERE" end all be all. I suggest from 1 inch moved over to 1 inch FROM a full butt cheek to most people at the track. If your arms, hands, shoulders are getting tired in the afternoon sessions, you are doing it wrong! That means you are hanging on with your upper body, not with your legs like you are supposed to be. You should be able to freely "flap" your elbows like a chicken except when turning in and braking. This is a sign you are relaxed and not hanging on, tense.

Hanging your upper body off is much more important than your butt. It weighs more and influences the lean angle of the bike greater than the butt. It is also less fatiguing to move the butt less and the upper body more. I see people every afternoon on track and pull them off to tell them to get their butt in the seat more. I get a lot of good feedback from doing so.

[shift957]

One thing you don't see much of is articles or instruction as to how to place your rear sets (If adjustable) on your bike. Most riders have their rear sets in the wrong position for them, causing an imbalance in their riding, less effective steering and body transitions and added input in the clip ons. I have looked at other coaches' rear sets and had them move them, making them more comfortable and ultimately, faster on the track.

[daverdfw]

One thing I tried last track day for the while 15 minutes before I lowsided was getting my head down like I was trying to touch my wrist. It was weird at first because the viewing angle was so different. But I felt like I was going faster in the turns than I ever was before. And that was actually getting more of my butt back on the seat when before I was doing the whole get 1 cheek off. Looking forward to working on it more next track day.

[csmith12]

Couple of things I have learned over the years...

There is NO one size fits all for body position or seating position for that matter.
"Sometimes, when the track has the traction, tires have the grip and the bike has the lean, the rider can be awarded a lot of freedoms of body position and style." - csmith12

Is it right = no
Is it wrong = no
Does it work for her/him = that's all that matters

Even CSS will not hold 100% stern to their own 1 cheek off base. Each rider is different on their own bike. Flexibility of style and form is a requirement to get the most of each rider/machine/tarmac/conditions combination. And to ignore it, is a disservice to the safety of the rider.

Learning when and why to adjust is a major breakthrough as a rider.

[Z1R rider]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Couple of things I have learned over the years...

There is NO one size fits all for body position or seating position for that matter.
"Sometimes, when the track has the traction, tires have the grip and the bike has the lean, the rider can be awarded a lot of freedoms of body position and style." - csmith12

Is it right = no
Is it wrong = no
Does it work for her/him = that's all that matters

Even CSS will not hold 100% stern to their own 1 cheek off base. Each rider is different on their own bike. Flexibility of style and form is a requirement to get the most of each rider/machine/tarmac/conditions combination. And to ignore it, is a disservice to the safety of the rider.

Learning when and why to adjust is a major breakthrough as a rider.

Helpful post

[Dsheumaker]

Originally Posted by JohnnyBravo

NcBike... It's only like 14 hours; come on down

So you were there Sept. 10-11??

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by shift957

One thing you don't see much of is articles or instruction as to how to place your rear sets (If adjustable) on your bike. Most riders have their rear sets in the wrong position for them, causing an imbalance in their riding, less effective steering and body transitions and added input in the clip ons. I have looked at other coaches' rear sets and had them move them, making them more comfortable and ultimately, faster on the track.

I like this as a topic of conversation as it is something that does not get discussed a lot (how to use adjustment properly as a whole really) but that being said since personal comfort is a personal thing - what did you use as a basic for needing a change and what change to make?

[csmith12]

On day soon, I will record my presentation of bp while doing a coaching session. I promise you, it's gunna be different that what you might think and will help you set up your ergos nicely.

[Dsheumaker]

Originally Posted by csmith12

On day soon, I will record my presentation of bp while doing a coaching session. I promise you, it's gunna be different that what you might think and will help you set up your ergos nicely.

Uh oh!!!!

[JohnnyBravo]

Originally Posted by Dsheumaker

So you were there Sept. 10-11??

Heck no... Had family stuff I had to take care of

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by csmith12

On day soon, I will record my presentation of bp while doing a coaching session. I promise you, it's gunna be different that what you might think

No doubt.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Couple of things I have learned over the years...

There is NO one size fits all for body position or seating position for that matter.
"Sometimes, when the track has the traction, tires have the grip and the bike has the lean, the rider can be awarded a lot of freedoms of body position and style." - csmith12

Is it right = no
Is it wrong = no
Does it work for her/him = that's all that matters

Even CSS will not hold 100% stern to their own 1 cheek off base. Each rider is different on their own bike. Flexibility of style and form is a requirement to get the most of each rider/machine/tarmac/conditions combination. And to ignore it, is a disservice to the safety of the rider.

Learning when and why to adjust is a major breakthrough as a rider.

I'd agree with this. At CSS we fit the rider to the bike and work with how THEY sit, fit and feel comfortable. The goal is always the same, to get the rider going with the bike and to reduce overall lean angle, and to have them be able to maintain relaxed arms but the adjustments can be different for each rider. Sometimes it takes a small tweak here or there for someone to really just "get it."

Another thing to consider is that Body Position is tied into other aspects of riding tech. What I mean by that is that sometimes it is counter productive to try and focus on body position first when other basics aren't in place yet. Case in point....I'm private coaching a girl at Wilzig Racing Manor (Private race track) and the people that have been working with her have been trying to get her to hang off and sort out her body position. Problem is, she didn't really know how to correctly steer the motorcycle. I spent about 30 minutes working on a steering exercise with her where I taught her to press on the left bar to go left and then step by step had her going with the bike, pushing forward not down etc etc....by the end of the steering drill she felt confident getting the bike turned. When we went back out on track her body position was amazing because she was steering correctly and going with the bike. She understood. The guys that had been working with her were stunned, how did you get her body position sorted out so quickly they asked?

Now that she is going a little bit faster with good body position I can tweak it so she is hanging off correctly but right now her position is perfect for her speed and ability.

[shift957]

Originally Posted by sharky nrk

I like this as a topic of conversation as it is something that does not get discussed a lot (how to use adjustment properly as a whole really) but that being said since personal comfort is a personal thing - what did you use as a basic for needing a change and what change to make?

You have 2 ways to adjust most adjustable rear sets -- forward or backward and up or down. If you look at tanks today, most all have a lip on them. your knee and thigh should fit into that lip to help you grip the bike with your lower body. That way, you can be light on the bars / clip ons.

You determine how far up or down you go by where your thigh fits to the upper lip of the tank. As I said, you want your knee to fit "into" that lip for maximum grip. With the bike on a rear stand (if you have one) sit on the bike and move your butt to the right as if you are taking a right hand corner. with the left foot, ball of the foot on the peg, use the calf muscle to press your knee into the lip of the tank. Using your left leg adductor muscles (muscles that squeeze your legs together) to stabilize your butt and torso and your core muscles to stabilize your upper body as you lean your upper body and shoulders "open" to the corner. Modify as needed for comfort.

As for adjustment forward and backward, you want to be on the balls of your feet and be balanced as much as possible. IE: not so far back that you are falling forward into the clip ons and not so far forward that you fall back. How I was shown you check this is, sit on the bike, a fists distance between your junk and the tank, and place your hands on top of the grips, fingers extended (not holding onto the grips). With balls of feet on the pegs, try to stand straight up without using your knees or legs to touch the bike. If you fall forward, the pegs need to come forward and vice versa if you fall backward. Most always, the pegs are too far back.

This way, when you go from full left turn to full right (or right to left), you are not off balance (fore or aft) and putting unnecessary pressure into the bars as you compensate for stability. In CSS, they teach that you always keep one knee on the tank, if not two for stability. I use this technique and it works well.

Side note: I highly recommend some kind of traction pad on the side of the tank like a stomp grip for better adhesion to the bike.

Hope that helps

[adouglas]

Good post.

I have to say, though, I've readjusted the Vortex rearsets on my GSX-R away from the full knee-in-the-lip position.

Reason is that I'm short, so in order to get my knee up into that lip the peg had to be as high and as far forward as it'd go.

What that wound up doing was binding my other leg up when hanging off, making it harder to move and get my foot into the proper position. My knee was too bent.

A taller person would not have this issue. A very tall person would have a different issue -- inability to get the pegs low and back enough to get their knee under the lip. this is particularly true with the Ninjette. @Bigballsofpaint is a pretty lanky guy and he can't get his knees into a good place on the Ninjette.

Also note that the way your leg contacts the tank when you're sitting square in the saddle isn't the same as when you're hanging off.

Watch some race footage. You'll find that without exception, when the riders hang off the INSTEP of the outside foot is on the peg. That's going to alter where your knee winds up on the tank. The inside foot has the break of the toes on the peg.

Observe the left foot:



+1 on the grip pads. Love 'em but there are tradeoffs:

- TechSpec don't grip worth squat (had 'em, both the hard rubber and foam ones)
- Stomp Grip are awesome but wear your leathers pretty heavily
- Some new ones have appeared from, I think, Moto-D that are similar to Stomp Grip but have rounded nubs that supposedly are kinder to your leathers. Don't know anything about these.

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by shift957

As for adjustment forward and backward, you want to be on the balls of your feet and be balanced as much as possible. IE: not so far back that you are falling forward into the clip ons and not so far forward that you fall back. How I was shown you check this is, sit on the bike, a fists distance between your junk and the tank, and place your hands on top of the grips, fingers extended (not holding onto the grips). With balls of feet on the pegs, try to stand straight up without using your knees or legs to touch the bike. If you fall forward, the pegs need to come forward and vice versa if you fall backward. Most always, the pegs are too far back.

First time I had heard of this method to check forward vs back, good stuff.

[shift957]

Good point, adouglas! Yes, everyone's legs are different. Some have disproportionate femurs, etc... some have 2 different length legs altogether. And some folks just can't take the pressures of their knees bent so far. That is why I added, adjust for comfort.

I don't ever compare body positions to professional racers. The reason why: they train daily, specifically for riding and they do things we simply cannot do for the duration of a track day. I won't say the technique I suggested is the only way, but I do believe it is the the most fitting for the average Joe rider and trackday or amateur racer. Most of those guys are hanging a full cheek + off and I believe because most are shorter than the average person, they alter their leg position to achieve such an aggressive hang off position. It's pretty amazing to me that they can sustain such aggressive bp while pushing so hard for 45 minute races, often in 90+degree heat.

I've heard people complain about stomp grips "wearing out" their leathers. I use them on all my bikes and have worn the same Spidi R2 Wind leathers since 2006. The only reason I retired them this year is I got lazy and didn't wash them enough to get the salts out and use leather conditioner regularly. So they dried out and cracked in the arms. I ride 40+ track days a year. My leathers had what I would call "cosmetic damage" from stomp grips, but certainly not anything that I would consider damaging their ability to keep me safe. Makes me think people do not condition the leather enough and it gets dry and succumbs to the abrasion or maybe (no offense to anyone) is a result of inferior leather/stitching? None the less, there are a few good options out there. I believe Graves makes a smooth clear film that is really thin and pretty sticky. Neat stuff, but I usually have too much conditioner on my leathers for that to work. Especially in the rain! lol

But then again, some people think certain tracks "wear out their boots" because they drag their toes rather than adjust for that certain corner. If you're on trackday junkies or motorider's universe on fb, I'm sure you've heard lots of good ones.

Just remember, there's always more than one way to do everything and not one way works for everyone. And sometimes, nothing works!

[shift957]

Originally Posted by sharky nrk

First time I had heard of this method to check forward vs back, good stuff.

When someone tells me they are having a hard time turning/steering the bike, rearset position is often one of the first things I look at for them. I helped @Sirref at NCBike with his rearsets, and he claimed it was an instant difference. (He's getting pretty fast these days) It's just an often overlooked or misunderstood adjustment on the bike.

[Sirena]

great read - and especially thanks for the replies . Especially about adaptations, as for some of us whose body parts never reach where they are supposed to

[Alex]