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Old March 2nd, 2022, 09:31 AM   #1
twb503
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Bike hesitates around 9k RPM

I’m sure this has been asked a million times, but I can’t seem to find anything that matches my situation 100%. So sorry if this is redundant;

My ‘09 250R SE had a Yoshimura exhaust and K&N air filter added by its previous owner. I have no idea if they messed with the carbs. But, when accelerating at WOT, the bike stops accelerating for like two seconds when it hits 9k, and very slowly climbs up until it reaches 10k, at which point it goes back to normal. If the throttle isn’t opened all the way, it’ll go past 9k easily. I don’t think it had this problem when I bought the bike, and I haven’t added anything to the bike. I think it got worse after I cleaned out the K&N air filter.

My theory is it’s running too lean. I tried running WOT around the same point with varying amounts of choke, but it still hesitates at 9k. I’m a little scared to mess with the carbs because I’m a total noob when it comes to carbs, and I’m afraid I’m going to mess something up. What should I do? Should I try and rejet the main jet, or something else?
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Old March 2nd, 2022, 10:54 AM   #2
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The cheapest thing may be to try a $10 factory air filter in place of that K&N. Those are just gimmicks anyway unless the carbs have been jetted to handle the additional flow. Your pipe is just making that fueling issue worse anyway. It would be interesting to see if the problem goes away with a little intake "restriction".
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Old March 2nd, 2022, 10:57 AM   #3
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The cheapest thing may be to try a $10 factory air filter in place of that K&N. Those are just gimmicks anyway unless the carbs have been jetted to handle the additional flow. Your pipe is just making that fueling issue worse anyway. It would be interesting to see if the problem goes away with a little intake "restriction".
I might have to try that out, but I’d probably need to get the little plastic housing for the filter, since it was removed with the K&N.
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Old March 2nd, 2022, 11:07 AM   #4
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I might have to try that out, but I’d probably need to get the little plastic housing for the filter, since it was removed with the K&N.
Sheesh, the part is like $50 for a set of two, then another $10 for the regular filter. I think at that point I may as well just rejet. Do you think the regular filter would be fine without the holders that surround it?
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Old March 2nd, 2022, 11:53 AM   #5
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Ouch, sorry Why do people insist on putting those stupid filters on everything??
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Old March 2nd, 2022, 01:25 PM   #6
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K&N lets through lots of dust. Ends up wearing out your engine quicker than factory filter. Factory filter and airbox poses no restrictions anyway, so no benefit in removing.

Rejetting will do nothing because air-flow with K&N is same as stock. Most likely bike has already been rejetted and that's why it stumbles.

Verify carbs have all stock parts: jets, needles, etc. If not, put stock parts back in and give it thorough cleaning. Not just spray useless carb-cleaner, but actually use brushes and scrub out hidden secret passages from end-to-end with PEA-based fuel-system cleaner.
https://n4mwd.blogspot.com/2013/10/s...-passages.html

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Old March 2nd, 2022, 05:17 PM   #7
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Did you oil the K&N filter?
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Old March 2nd, 2022, 05:18 PM   #8
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Did you oil the K&N filter?
Yes.
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Old March 3rd, 2022, 06:54 AM   #9
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K&N lets through lots of dust. Ends up wearing out your engine quicker than factory filter. Factory filter and airbox poses no restrictions anyway, so no benefit in removing.

Rejetting will do nothing because air-flow with K&N is same as stock. Most likely bike has already been rejetted and that's why it stumbles.

Verify carbs have all stock parts: jets, needles, etc. If not, put stock parts back in and give it thorough cleaning. Not just spray useless carb-cleaner, but actually use brushes and scrub out hidden secret passages from end-to-end with PEA-based fuel-system cleaner.
https://n4mwd.blogspot.com/2013/10/s...-passages.html
Or just need a general cleaning probably got a piece of dirt in the main jet circuit passage or junk in bottom of the bowl.
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Old March 3rd, 2022, 07:01 AM   #10
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Yes.
You may have over-oiled the filter. I would clean it again to remove the oil, and use half of what you used the first time.

It's easy to use too much oil, and it will make it run poorly.

I've done it...

Someone may have made "adjustments" to the carb as well, and replaced the OEM jets, and needles, with poor-quality aftermarket ones. Carb kits from Amazon are usually junk.

I always recommend OEM jets (not Dyno Jet either). Factory Pro jet kits use OEM Kehin jets. Sometimes rookies will drill out jets too, so you can't always go by what's in there now.

If you plan to go through the carbs, that would be my suggestion. Start from scratch. The stock jetting, even with a pipe and filter, is usually pretty good. Adding a shim under the needles will help smooth the midrange transition, but don't go with a stack of shims - just 1 is usually adequate.
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Old March 3rd, 2022, 07:04 AM   #11
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You may have over-oiled the filter. I would clean it again to remove the oil, and use half of what you used the first time.

It's easy to use too much oil, and it will make it run poorly.

I've done it...
Usually that all rpm and that not going hurt it one bit if he over done it that was the case.
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Old March 3rd, 2022, 07:09 AM   #12
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Usually that all rpm and that not going hurt it one bit if he over done it that was the case.
Huh?
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Old March 3rd, 2022, 07:19 AM   #13
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Huh?
Sorry if you don't get it but maybe this will help, if he over oil the air filter it will only causes to run a tab rich at all rpm not at one pacifics RPM range.
I used K&N air filters for many decades for Dirt bike, ATV, Cars and Trucks as far back as 80"s
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Old March 3rd, 2022, 08:45 AM   #14
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Update

Good news: stock air filter is coming today, hopefully bike will run a little better.
Bad news: Pulled a spark plug, white tip. Engine is definitely running lean. Replaced that spark plug.
Horrible news: Got a socket stuck in the other bloody spark plug hole. 10 min job turned into a 3 day job now. Any ideas how to get the thing out?
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Old March 3rd, 2022, 08:58 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by twb503 View Post
Good news: stock air filter is coming today, hopefully bike will run a little better.
Bad news: Pulled a spark plug, white tip. Engine is definitely running lean. Replaced that spark plug.
Horrible news: Got a socket stuck in the other bloody spark plug hole. 10 min job turned into a 3 day job now. Any ideas how to get the thing out?
LoL used a reg deep thin wall socket
Look at spark plugs color chart like in here
Did order the 2 Element holder for stock air filter
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Old March 3rd, 2022, 09:08 AM   #16
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LoL used a reg deep thin wall socket
Look at spark plugs color chart like in here
Did order the 2 Element holder for stock air filter
I did not order the holders, because $25 each for some holders is asinine. Hopefully they’re not needed, but if anyone would happen to have a 3D model of them, send me them, and I’ll 3D print some myself.
Spark plug looks like the lean one in the picture.
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Old March 3rd, 2022, 09:17 AM   #17
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I did not order the holders, because $25 each for some holders is asinine. Hopefully they’re not needed, but if anyone would happen to have a 3D model of them, send me them, and I’ll 3D print some myself.
Spark plug looks like the lean one in the picture.
Yes you need them
Check bikebandit.com they should be cheaper
I check ebay but didn't see any but if got 3D printer that good option

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Old March 3rd, 2022, 11:18 AM   #18
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Yes you need them
Check bikebandit.com they should be cheaper
I check ebay but did see any but if got 3D printer that good option
Back ordered. Do you know if anyone here has good enough 3D modelling skills to model their holders? RevZilla has them for ~23 each, and I need 2. $46 + shipping for some holders for the air filter seems idiotic to me.
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Old March 3rd, 2022, 11:46 AM   #19
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did you ever get the socket out of the spark plug hole ?
.... you may have to rig up a large screw or bolt to go into the square socket hole and grab onto the sides of the socket's 3/8" hole and use a slide hammer or just pull on the bolt....
.....
I've had trouble getting a socket out of holes like that before and it's usually because the extension ball is sticky from years of use and slides in and out of the socket too easily.... if nothing else you can try some tape over the end of the socket's extension and jam it in the socket itself ...that will usually get it out of there.... or a small wire in the socket and jam the extension into the socket real good....
....
I have a special extension that's new and locks on real good to the socket when I do sparkplugs on the Ninja.
.....
Bob......
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Old March 3rd, 2022, 12:23 PM   #20
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did you ever get the socket out of the spark plug hole ?
.... you may have to rig up a large screw or bolt to go into the square socket hole and grab onto the sides of the socket's 3/8" hole and use a slide hammer or just pull on the bolt....
.....
I've had trouble getting a socket out of holes like that before and it's usually because the extension ball is sticky from years of use and slides in and out of the socket too easily.... if nothing else you can try some tape over the end of the socket's extension and jam it in the socket itself ...that will usually get it out of there.... or a small wire in the socket and jam the extension into the socket real good....
....
I have a special extension that's new and locks on real good to the socket when I do sparkplugs on the Ninja.
.....
Bob......
I tried JB welding an extension to the socket and letting it sit overnight, no luck. Thing is really stuck on there.
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Old March 3rd, 2022, 01:07 PM   #21
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can you try unscrewing the sparkplug and the rising of the sparkplug out of the hole may raise the socket far enough to get un stuck ???
.....
find a long lag bolt and see if you can thread it into the end of the socket maybe try tapping the hole slightly with a threading tap to get it to start ,,,
this would be tricky work you would have to be real careful !
I think a wire and pounding in the extension is your best bet but it sounds like it is really stuck in there you may have to weld a rod to the darn thing to get it out of there !
.....
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Old March 3rd, 2022, 01:14 PM   #22
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can you try unscrewing the sparkplug and the rising of the sparkplug out of the hole may raise the socket far enough to get un stuck ???
.....
find a long lag bolt and see if you can thread it into the end of the socket maybe try tapping the hole slightly with a threading tap to get it to start ,,,
this would be tricky work you would have to be real careful !
I think a wire and pounding in the extension is your best bet but it sounds like it is really stuck in there you may have to weld a rod to the darn thing to get it out of there !
.....
Bob............
I’ll have to try it when I get home.
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Old March 3rd, 2022, 02:45 PM   #23
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if nothing else make yourself a Hook tool.... a piece of heavy wire and bend or smash with a hammer in a vise to make a short 90 degree hook stick that in the socket hole and pull it out...
....
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Old March 3rd, 2022, 03:17 PM   #24
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if nothing else make yourself a Hook tool.... a piece of heavy wire and bend or smash with a hammer in a vise to make a short 90 degree hook stick that in the socket hole and pull it out...
....
Bob....
I tried it, though not with the strongest of wires. Couldn’t get anything. It’s stuck TO something it seems.
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Old March 3rd, 2022, 04:11 PM   #25
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yah ! probably the plug itself ...some plug sockets have a rubber insert to cushion and hold the plug ...they have a tendency to hold a plug real good
and if the engine was Hot when you tried to take the plugs out it may have melted to the plug......( i doubt it but it could happen !)
i have a screwdriver that I heated the end with a propane torch to red hot and bent the end to 90 degrees and I use that thing on a bunch of things in the shop...its a handy tool for all sorts of things the longer the screw driver the better i've ground the end down over the years so I can use it to get in the o- ring groove's on things.... it's also a great seal puller it's a small phillips that the end was sharpened into an awl and then bent over.... very handy !
but you could find something in the tool box like that and make your hook out of that.... it needs to be about 3/16" diameter screwdriver shaft so it's strong enough...
more than likely the engine was warm when you got it stuck in there and it's cooled and shrunk some.... heat the head with a propane torch and see if it loosens up some ????? this is one of those mechanic things that is very discouraging that no one hears about ... something so simple as changing the plugs and it turns out to be a major project !
but don't feel bad it has happened to others to be sure !
..... I have enough tools and junk I am sure I could get it out quickly but when your running with minimum tooling that makes it 100 times harder !
....make a tool to retrieve the tool ! and you'll never have to use it again in your life time ! ....don't ask me how i know that....LOL
a long thin flat bladed screw driver should be able to be bent on the tip to make a decent hook to hook the socket another larger screwdriver in the hole at the same time to lock it in there and you should be able to get it out even if you have to put vice grips on it and pound it up and out of the hole !
.....
use a torch to heat the screwdriver to cherry red before you try bending it or it will just snap off !
....
good luck
.....
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Old March 3rd, 2022, 06:28 PM   #26
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Back ordered. Do you know if anyone here has good enough 3D modelling skills to model their holders? RevZilla has them for ~23 each, and I need 2. $46 + shipping for some holders for the air filter seems idiotic to me.
sorry i don't
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Old March 3rd, 2022, 07:59 PM   #27
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what HOLDERS are you talking about ? spark plug caps ? or what ?
....
twas a good idea the JB weld on the extension by the way....
....
I wonder if running the engine on 1 cylinder till it is warm would make enough difference in the swelling of the head to get that socket out of there in a reasonable manor.... aluminum expands and contracts ALOT so I am thinking if you just got the head hot enough it would release the socket ! ...

.... did you put the socket in there when the engine was cold or hot ?

...
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Old March 3rd, 2022, 10:03 PM   #28
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How did it get stuck? Did slip when unscrewing and wedge itself between plug and hole? Did it unscrew plug all the way? Try doing things in reverse. TIGHTEN the socket while pushing it down.
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Old March 4th, 2022, 02:43 AM   #29
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what HOLDERS are you talking about ? spark plug caps ? or what ?
....
twas a good idea the JB weld on the extension by the way....
....
I wonder if running the engine on 1 cylinder till it is warm would make enough difference in the swelling of the head to get that socket out of there in a reasonable manor.... aluminum expands and contracts ALOT so I am thinking if you just got the head hot enough it would release the socket ! ...

.... did you put the socket in there when the engine was cold or hot ?

...
Bob...
That only gone to make socket get tighter bob you want to freeze the socket for it to contract from each other with something like co2.
An option is to make you own homemade puller simulator to a pilot bearing puller and you need some kind slide hammer
Google Search Images by for "homemade pilot bearing puller"
You may have to break the top part of the spark plug porcelain and vacuum out the pieces out that should give you enough room for the homemade puller
Be sure the piston is at top dead center and use co2 to freeze the socket.

If nothing get bigger hammer LoL
Connected to a 3/8 to 1/2" drive adapter. Connected to a 1/2" Ratchets with 2 feet long pipe. That's a lot of leverage but crack on.
Even with that much leverage, it took a huge amount of effort, but the socket should broke loose, and came out by working back and forth.

Last option but it req you pull the head of and punch out all spark plug porcelain and need a stick welder to weld the square slot close on socket and let the head cool off then use a long grade 8 bolt to drive the socket out

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Old March 4th, 2022, 07:06 AM   #30
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Sorry if you don't get it but maybe this will help, if he over oil the air filter it will only causes to run a tab rich at all rpm not at one pacifics RPM range.
I used K&N air filters for many decades for Dirt bike, ATV, Cars and Trucks as far back as 80"s
Hey, thanks - now I get it!

You need to proofread and use spellcheck, so we can understand and learn...
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Old March 4th, 2022, 07:14 AM   #31
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Good news: stock air filter is coming today, hopefully bike will run a little better.
Bad news: Pulled a spark plug, white tip. Engine is definitely running lean. Replaced that spark plug.
Horrible news: Got a socket stuck in the other bloody spark plug hole. 10 min job turned into a 3 day job now. Any ideas how to get the thing out?
I think you will need to go through the carbs.

Unlike previous gens, the later carb components are not the same side-to-side, and if someone has messed with them, they may be mixed-up.

It may even run worse with the stock filter, depending on a few things, but I don't think it's going to run right without completely going through the carbs carefully.
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Old March 4th, 2022, 07:47 AM   #32
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Anthony has a real good idea there ! I know electronic stores used to carry a pressurized can of FREEZE decades ago for trouble shooting electronics
that might cool the socket enough so it contracts enough to get it out...
.... the lean issue is no doubt carburetor's or a vacuum leak
and it is very possible the carbs have interchanged parts in them and their not supposed to be ! i would study them very closely and see if i could find the culprit !
.....
....it'a a stupid arrangement to have a spark plug down deep in a hole in the first place... you can't get to it no matter what you do.... and serious problems will crop up with an arrangement like that.... like this one !
the only way I can see to get the socket out of the hole is grab on to it ( somehow) and pull it straight out..... it's the grabbing onto it while it's in the hole that is near impossible though.....i think a strong hook on the end of a rod is the best bet for that.... but if the JB weld dripped down along side the socket while it dried the other night.... it may well be glued in there and impossible to get out now.... Acetone may dissolve the JB weld but I am not sure.... it should.
.....
this is a big puzzle ! tapping threads in the end of the socket may be the only way to get it out. and that won't be easy taping threads in a square hole
the hole will have to be drilled out and then tapped then a bolt threaded in and then the thing can be hammered out....
not an easy task..... good luck !
Bob......
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Old March 4th, 2022, 08:45 AM   #33
twb503
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How did it get stuck? Did slip when unscrewing and wedge itself between plug and hole? Did it unscrew plug all the way? Try doing things in reverse. TIGHTEN the socket while pushing it down.
I tried loosening the spark plug, and the socket just came off my wrench, and I haven’t gotten it back since. I think the socket is REALLY on the spark plug, since I did do a bit of hammering to try and get it out. I think the problem is I accidentally used a standard socket on a metric bolt and got it to fit, sort of…

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Old March 4th, 2022, 08:45 AM   #34
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what HOLDERS are you talking about ? spark plug caps ? or what ?
....
twas a good idea the JB weld on the extension by the way....
....
I wonder if running the engine on 1 cylinder till it is warm would make enough difference in the swelling of the head to get that socket out of there in a reasonable manor.... aluminum expands and contracts ALOT so I am thinking if you just got the head hot enough it would release the socket ! ...

.... did you put the socket in there when the engine was cold or hot ?

...
Bob...
I had tried to remove it while the engine was hot.
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Old March 4th, 2022, 08:48 AM   #35
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Little update: I bought a locking socket extension, but I can’t seem to get it to snap into place on the socket. I’m scared that the socket connecting bit may have gotten warped, either that or I’m just really, really stupid (as we’ve established). I think the tip of the spark plug may be getting in the way of the extension, so I’m not really sure.
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Old March 4th, 2022, 08:50 AM   #36
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what HOLDERS are you talking about ? spark plug caps ? or what ?
....
twas a good idea the JB weld on the extension by the way....
....
I wonder if running the engine on 1 cylinder till it is warm would make enough difference in the swelling of the head to get that socket out of there in a reasonable manor.... aluminum expands and contracts ALOT so I am thinking if you just got the head hot enough it would release the socket ! ...

.... did you put the socket in there when the engine was cold or hot ?

...
Bob...
I’m talking about the holders that go around the air cleaner. Part # 13280-0226 to be specific.

Last futzed with by twb503; March 4th, 2022 at 08:51 AM. Reason: typo
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Old March 4th, 2022, 08:52 AM   #37
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Little update: I bought a locking socket extension, but I can’t seem to get it to snap into place on the socket. I’m scared that the socket connecting bit may have gotten warped, either that or I’m just really, really stupid (as we’ve established). I think the tip of the spark plug may be getting in the way of the extension, so I’m not really sure.
If has happen, you find away brake off top of the plug and vacuum out the pieces
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Old March 4th, 2022, 08:53 AM   #38
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If has happen, you find away brake off top of the plug and vacuum out the pieces
I’m scared about it falling inside of the engine though. Also I don’t even know if I can fit my vac in there lol, there’s so many tubes and the frame in the way I can barely even get my wrench in there.
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Old March 4th, 2022, 09:02 AM   #39
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I’m scared about it falling inside of the engine though. Also I don’t even know if I can fit my vac in there lol, there’s so many tubes and the frame in the way I can barely even get my wrench in there.
Ture just used phone camera with flasher set on take a photo to see if that the case.
All need small enough hose to fit down it with space and use the vac hose and duct, clear tape , even a rag to fill the space to make seal around both hose, that or going have pull head and a big job
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Old March 4th, 2022, 10:27 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by twb503 View Post
I tried loosening the spark plug, and the socket just came off my wrench, and I haven’t gotten it back since. I think the socket is REALLY on the spark plug, since I did do a bit of hammering to try and get it out. I think the problem is I accidentally used a standard socket on a metric bolt and got it to fit, sort of…
Yeah, get complete set of metric sockets to work on this bike. SAE sizes will always be slightly off with extra wiggle. Although 16mm and 5/8" size for spark-plugs are pretty close. But 16mm is 0.8% larger, so you may have gone next size up from 5/8" and gotten loose fit.

Good to have spark-plug specific tool. I use one of these:

Thin-walls gives extra clearance vs. regular sockets.
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