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Old May 5th, 2022, 01:16 PM   #41
DannoXYZ
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Yeah, DOT-4 absorbs moisture much faster than DOT-3, so I change it yearly during winter overhaul.
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Old May 5th, 2022, 10:50 PM   #42
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Average fluid in an average system absorbs moisture about 1%/per year. The first 1% lowers brake fluid boiling temp more than the next % and so on. So yeah, yearly fluid change IS beneficial on a track machine. Even though these brakes aren't heat load limited.
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Old May 6th, 2022, 11:11 AM   #43
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I saved weight by shortening the chain
Seriously. I looked at Moto3-bikes. They have a very short wheel base, the rider's butt is almost above the rear wheel center. Shorter wheelbase can't hurt on go-kart tracks where the bike does most of it's action. My son maybe better able to keep up with Supermotos and Mini-GP bikes.
Racing circuits in Finland are on average slow speed with very little fast turns.
Google says that a Moto3 bike has 17cm shorter wheelbase than a stock Ninja.
I grinded the swing axle holes a bit to move it forwards enough.There's now 9mm between tyre sides and swing arm.
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Old May 8th, 2022, 01:52 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
On stock bodywork, there are inner pieces under fairings that seal gap around radiator. On my race-bike, I have gaps. Even with removing fan, I haven't had overheating issues, even on +45C days @ track. Just have to make sure not to run at low-speeds for very long.
.
Danno, did you eliminate the thermostat too? Mahalo
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Old May 8th, 2022, 09:37 PM   #45
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nope. Working thermostat is fully open well before operating temps is reached.

But on pre-gen; you should install ThermoBob.
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Old May 15th, 2022, 10:46 AM   #46
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I finally came up with a solution for laptiming gear.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Having to stuff the phone to suit pocket of duct taping it to the bike is a pain. And I like to time all the laps.


Last futzed with by Alex; May 15th, 2022 at 09:21 PM. Reason: edited to fix video. Just put the video ID in between youtube tags.
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Old May 16th, 2022, 06:53 AM   #47
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No weather for track outings so..
I calculate the end weight saving to be ~1,3kg.
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Old May 19th, 2022, 10:49 AM   #48
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The ignition lock/switch broke.
So, resourceful me whipped out the wiring diagram and connected the proper wires. Grey and brown to white. Aaand no start. No fuel pump no spark. I was already pretty sure I'd ****ed the ECU by welding the frame with electrics attached. Spent 4 evenings after work measuring and checking wiring.
Turns put that apparently the grey wire need lowered voltage or the ECU wont play ball ? Its the next thing I'm going to try. The diagram shows or tells nothing about any resistor.
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Old May 19th, 2022, 09:28 PM   #49
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Yes, special anti-hotwire circuit. You can replace ignition-switch with simple on/off switch like this. Make sure it's rated for 10a. Resistor on grey wire should be ~125 ohms or so.



Made typo, "ignition" should be "ignitor".
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Old May 20th, 2022, 07:33 AM   #50
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I'm baffled and pissed about the fact that I can't find any info about that resistor in the Factory Repair Manual. Took me long enough to figure out.
The bike loses well over 0,5kg by removing the steering lock and ignition switch. Steering lock was unusable anyway because I have steering angle limiters in place.
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Old May 22nd, 2022, 01:23 AM   #51
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My solution to the problem.
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Old May 22nd, 2022, 02:23 PM   #52
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heh, heh.... don't need power-resistor as it's just high-impedance sensing-line. Regular 1/4-watt resistor will do. ECU actually gets full 12v operating power from brn/blk coming from IGN fuse (same as coils).

Are you going to away with right-hand electronics? Just push-button for starter? I replaced both my right-hand controls and ign-switch with one of these. Although mounted on left, to make it easier to operate throttle while starting.



I actually removed 2 unneeded wires from this as it also had output wires for IGN OFF and START OFF positions. Not sure why....

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Old May 22nd, 2022, 10:02 PM   #53
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I dug up the original resistor, my recently calibrated meter says it's 99,7 ohm.Not planning to change the right side switch gear.
I spent considerable time trying to google older model 250 valve specs, finding nothing. The older bikes are more powerful so it'd be useful to know some of the differences from factory.
My guess is older ones have larger valves.

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Old May 23rd, 2022, 02:30 AM   #54
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original resistor is 100 ohms, but doesn't lower voltage enough for some ignitors. Some people have had to use as high as 150 ohms for bike to start.

Same size valves, there are many variables that determine power-output. There's no single component that contributes to entire change.

COMPRESSION
08-12: 11.6:1 pistons
88-07: 12.4:1 pistons
For race-bike, use 13.5:1 pistons with race-petrol +105 RON

EXHAUST
08-12 new-gen models have exhaust header-pipe at least 5mm smaller than pre-gen models. Additonally 2-1 designs optimises mid-range torque and loses high-end flow & power compared to earlier 2-2 exhaust.

Tyga full exhaust has larger diameter header pipe with true 2-1 merge collector along with smoothest transitions to muffler. Tyga full-exhaust gives +22% +6 bhp, better than any other single upgrade! See my exhaust comparison here: https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=338180

IGNITION
08-12: maximum 35-degrees BTDC @ 4000rpm
95-07: maximum 38-degrees BTDC @ 4500rpm
88-94: maximum 42-degrees BTDC @ 4500rpm

CAMS
08-12: int/exh = duration 225/223 deg, lobe-centre = 102.5/107.5
95-07: int/exh = duration 272 deg, lobe-centre = 110
88-94: int/exh = duration 280 deg, lobe-centre = 110

No, you cannot put earlier pre-gen cams on your new-gen. They are designed for rocker-arms instead of bucket-over-valves. Only aftermarket cams worth using are Beet cams from Japan.

CARBS
08-12: 28mm
88-07: 30mm
86-87: 32mm

There's no secret to making power with these engines. Extremely competent engine-builder & racer have gotten 48whp out of one (close to factory ouput!). You just have to know exact specs by taking apart engines and measuring them. Then knowing which ones to change and by how much.
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Old May 23rd, 2022, 03:05 AM   #55
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Yep the cam thing I knew.
I think it's useful to look and engines' numbers and identify potential resctrictions that way also. Like with cams and compression. The dynamic compression ratio for example, is already pretty high on a 2008-12 250R at 9,6 if my calculator is right. In another motor I built, the number was 7,6 so that already told me where cheap ponies might be.

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Old May 23rd, 2022, 05:28 AM   #56
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Thing about dynamic compression is it assumes full cylinder-filling at 100kpa at all RPMs. Doesn't account for restrictions such as intake-port design, valve sizes, or exhaust. You'd only reach that 9,6 in mid-range at max VE (torque peak). Then it would be less below and above that point.

This combination of square cams, low-compression and low cam separation optimises mid-range and there's not much power above 10K. Compared to earlier bikes which is configured for high peak power. I have both and my 2002 is easily 1-sec faster to 100kph than my 2009 street-bike. Also 10kph faster top-speed. My 2008 race-bike with all possible upgrades barely matches it in speed. The speed difference is more significant than comparing peak-HP. Because difference in power above 10K is much larger than that. Older bike has 5hp advantage at redline!



Everything is inter-related, you can't just change one part. To take advantage of cam-upgrades, requires higher-comp pistons, expanding intake/exhaust ports and upgrading exhaust.

I recommend this reading list since I end up plagiarising them in my posts anyway:

Performance Tuning Theory & Practice - Four Strokes - Bell 1981 Haynes
Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals - Heywood 1988 McGraw-Hill
Engineering Fundamentals of Internal Combustion Engine - Pulkrabek 2003 Prentice Hall
Flow and Combustion in Reciprocating Engines - Springer, Arcoumanis, Kaminoto 2009 Verlag Berlin Heideberg
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Old May 23rd, 2022, 08:47 AM   #57
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The dynamic compression was just an example of a useful number about an engine. Where people are always asking how much is too much compression for pump gas, the answer is "that depends" 11:1 for a stock cam car motor might be a lot. Them having quite low rod/stroke ratios and really mild cams.
My car build has/had 13,5:1 on pump fuel. But it had 300/300 deg cam. Inlet closes @ 76 ABDC.
Yes it assumes 100% VE. However, dynamic CR tells you how close you are to the upper limit of actual compression pressure better than static CR. That's what I was getting at.
From those figures you posted seems like older engines close inlet later. With ~12,6 CR you're closish to the same dynamic CR as in newer model.

BTW, the factory manual quotes 272 from 0 to 0 for the 2008-12 cams.
If the valve sizes and cam specs are same-ish o newer and older models, that's useful info.

I looked at factory cam timing for our bike. From my perspective, having looked at car cams all my life, it looks to me that inlet cam is advanced. Makes me think whether dicking around with timing might give some extra punch past 10000rpm.

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Old May 23rd, 2022, 03:38 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petrolhead View Post
BTW, the factory manual quotes 272 from 0 to 0 for the 2008-12 cams.
Really? Which page? I was looking for that years ago and couldn't find it.

Then our own Racer_X actually measured with actual hands on those parts and he came up with those specs @ 1,25m lift. I think pre-gen manuals used 1,00mm or less because an earlier version had 290 cams or some insane number.
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...2&postcount=21

Also new-gen intake-cams have 1mm more lift than exhaust. Some people installed intake-cam on exhaust side, but gains are minimal as intake-ports are primary restriction in head.

Yes retarding intake couple degrees should move power-band up. Nice thing about Beet cams is longer duration matches increased lift so you don't have to install stiffer valve-springs. All U.S. made cams are crap, I've never gotten cam from Web or MegaCycle with two lobes that actually matched. I think they're using monkeys in back-yard with sticks & stones to cut these cams. Only one I would trust is custom-grind from Dema Elgin (not the copycat Elgin Industries).

Easy way to port & polish head to remove restrictions along with getting 1mm larger intake-valves is to.... install Ninja 300 head!!!

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Old May 23rd, 2022, 09:53 PM   #59
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Page 15, 1-8 General information.
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Old May 24th, 2022, 07:42 AM   #60
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Also new-gen intake-cams have 1mm more lift than exhaust. Some people installed intake-cam on exhaust side, but gains are minimal as intake-ports are primary restriction in head.

Easy way to port & polish head to remove restrictions along with getting 1mm larger intake-valves is to.... install Ninja 300 head!!!
I think 10% more lift on exh becomes very significant if you open up the inlet side.
About the 300 head. Another topic on this forum said they're identical? Quick googling tells me vendors offer the same 23,47 (or 23,50)mm inlet valve for both 300 and 250.
There's a reputable CNC-shop here in Finland that specializes in cam work. Haven't asked them for a quote and whether they'd be able to do work on these cams.
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Old May 25th, 2022, 10:47 AM   #61
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Got it put back together after all the difficulties. I cut the passenger foot peg brackets and some other small brackets off while I was at it.
Now that I'd have a working bike and a day off.. it'll be rain for the following week and a half.

The bike should be taken totally apart to really be able to shed weight. Some winter..

I built a BMW E30 from an empty shell. I managed quite a nice kerb weight by just being thorough and systematical while building. Lots of ridiculoysly small stuff but it adds up. I got significantly lower weight than the original despite beefier box, bigger diff, bigger brakes, "bigger" engine.
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Old May 26th, 2022, 02:48 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post


Also new-gen intake-cams have 1mm more lift than exhaust. Some people installed intake-cam on exhaust side, but gains are minimal as intake-ports are primary restriction in head.
This got me thinking.. if you put an intake cam on the exh side, and retarded the intake side 3-4. Might be a nice solution. You'd still get the same-ish area under the curve in overlap. I for one think that overlap is the significant "fifth" stroke.

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Old May 29th, 2022, 04:33 AM   #63
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Finally back in action.
I drain the tank then put in just enough for one stint. That's our VW Crafter in the background. Perfect for a weekend on track.
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Old May 29th, 2022, 05:20 AM   #64
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Long winter means a long pause from riding which means losing speed. First outings are always about getting the lost feel back bit by bit.
He was lot quicker now, than a year ago in May. Despite less riding. No personal best yet. And feedback from the bike is very positive. Bike leans quicker etc.
I told him just to rack up miles, no heroics.
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Old May 29th, 2022, 10:39 AM   #65
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Yeah, time off really hurts. I'm 20-sec/lap slower now having taken 2-yrs off due to covid & moving. It's coming back, but slowly. Although I'm starting over with 100% street bike...

Quote:
Originally Posted by petrolhead View Post
I saved weight by shortening the chain
Seriously. I looked at Moto3-bikes. They have a very short wheel base, the rider's butt is almost above the rear wheel center. Shorter wheelbase can't hurt on go-kart tracks where the bike does most of it's action. My son maybe better able to keep up with Supermotos and Mini-GP bikes.
Racing circuits in Finland are on average slow speed with very little fast turns.
Google says that a Moto3 bike has 17cm shorter wheelbase than a stock Ninja.
I grinded the swing axle holes a bit to move it forwards enough.There's now 9mm between tyre sides and swing arm.
I went little further:

- grinded 5mm off protruding edges of shock-bracket at front of swingarm
- removed 10mm from rear of swingarm to move axle-adjusters forward
- extended axle-slot in swingarm 10mm forward
- grind inner sides of swingarm for tire clearance at widest part, 3-5mm gap
- removed 4 chain links

This allowed me to slide wheel forwards more. Reduced wheelbase by 3,2cm to 135,7cm!





Previous race-org didn't allow removing wiring brackets and other tabs from frame. New one only limits displacement to 350cc. So I'm going to strip frame over summer break and cut off all extra brackets and tabs. Will also make 2-arm V-shaped fairing bracket (original is monster!). Should be able to remove another 3-4kg.

Not having any luck finding titanium axles, or hollow chromoly ones. Might just make them myself. Ordered some 12mm ti ones to replace shock & linkage bolts. Also making dog-bones from aluminium. Another -1-1.5kg there...

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; May 29th, 2022 at 11:04 PM.
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Old May 29th, 2022, 01:17 PM   #66
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Not having any luck finding titanium axles, or hollow chromoly ones. Might just make them myself. Ordered some 12mm ti ones to replace shock & linkage bolts. Also making linkage from aluminium. Another -1-1.5kg there...
Aloha Danno, I have been looking into T axles too, one comp quoted me $1,200 each or if I order 7 the price drops to $785 each.

If you make some let me know as I would be willing to buy 3 sets. I also want swingarm pivot axles too. Thanks

Mahalo
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Old May 29th, 2022, 01:44 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by punishum808 View Post
Aloha Danno, I have been looking into T axles too, one comp quoted me $1,200 each or if I order 7 the price drops to $785 each.

If you make some let me know as I would be willing to buy 3 sets. I also want swingarm pivot axles too. Thanks

Mahalo
Aloha Tracy!!!

That one is little tougher as it has higher torque moment than wheel-axles. It's already chromoly, so might get away with just hollowing it out. Looking to see if there's way to increase diameter...


I've got design for chromoly axles worked up, need to run some dynamic models to see if 3,5mm wall-thickness will suffice.

Going to local Honda dealer for rummaging parts bin. They have lots of hollow chromoly bolts used in their RR bikes.
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Old May 29th, 2022, 09:37 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post

- grinded 5mm off protruding edges of shock-bracket at front of swingarm
- removed 10mm from rear of swingarm to move axle-adjusters forward
- extended axle-slot in swingarm 10mm forward
- removed 4 chain links

This allowed me to slide wheel forwards more. Reduced wheelbase by 3,2cm to 135,7cm! :
What size tyres/sprockets do you have? With a140 rear the swing arm sides are getting close. Our bike is with 13/47 sprockets right now.
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Old May 29th, 2022, 10:48 PM   #69
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Quote:
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What size tyres/sprockets do you have? With a140 rear the swing arm sides are getting close. Our bike is with 13/47 sprockets right now.
Where did u get the 13 sprocket? I have not found one.
.
All the small bike teams in Moto America convert to the 415 setup. Less weight, thinner too.
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Old May 29th, 2022, 10:52 PM   #70
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Where did u get the 13 sprocket? I have not found one.
.
All the small bike teams in Moto America convert to the 415 setup. Less weight, thinner too.
JT sprockets, JTF1539.13. I can't remember where I got it from.
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Old May 29th, 2022, 11:03 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petrolhead View Post
What size tyres/sprockets do you have? With a140 rear the swing arm sides are getting close. Our bike is with 13/47 sprockets right now.
ah, I completely forgot I had made lateral clearance on inside of swingarm last year when converting from street bike to use 17x4.5" wheel with Q3+ 150/60 tyre (free MotoAmerica Jr. Cup take-offs ). Grind enough for 5mm clearance on each side. I used 3mm clearance and spray-paint I applied has not been rubbed off after 20-days @ track. Here's old photo, i'll take close-up tomorrow



Currently using factory 14/45t 520 sprockets. Going to use 415 17-18t w/56-57-58t alloy sprockets next. Smaller chain-pitch gives finer adjustments of gear-ratios along with 1-kg weight savings off drivetrain.
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Old May 30th, 2022, 05:45 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
ah, I completely forgot I had made lateral clearance on inside of swingarm last year when converting from street bike to use 17x4.5" wheel with Q3+ 150/60 tyre (free MotoAmerica Jr. Cup take-offs ). Grind enough for 5mm clearance on each side. I used 3mm clearance and spray-paint I applied has not been rubbed off after 20-days @ track. Here's old photo, i'll take close-up tomorrow



Currently using factory 14/45t 520 sprockets. Going to use 415 17-18t w/56-57-58t alloy sprockets next. Smaller chain-pitch gives finer adjustments of gear-ratios along with 1-kg weight savings off drivetrain.
Where do I click "helpful post"? ��
That was on my mind also, how much clearance do I need. When someone posts actual numbers from personal experience, the knowledge is valuable. Thanks.

BTW I really dont know where the "helpful post" button is.
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Old May 30th, 2022, 02:35 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petrolhead View Post
Where do I click "helpful post"? ��
That was on my mind also, how much clearance do I need. When someone posts actual numbers from personal experience, the knowledge is valuable. Thanks.

BTW I really dont know where the "helpful post" button is.
heh, heh... it's ThumbsUp icon in lower right. thx

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Old May 30th, 2022, 03:04 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
heh, heh... it's ThumbsUp icon in lower right. thx

Unfortunately that icon doesn't show up on my phone or laptops.
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Old May 30th, 2022, 11:30 PM   #75
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I don't have that button either.
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Old May 31st, 2022, 05:08 AM   #76
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Old June 1st, 2022, 10:12 AM   #77
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The rider said a gear display would be a good idea. So I ordered this:

I ordered twice from China a similar display for fraction of the price but they never arrived. Should be plug 'n pray.

edit.. I dont believe it . 22hrs from ordering from Italy, delivered!
Seems to work OK although with a small delay. Probably calculates the gear from revs divided by front sprocket speed.
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Last futzed with by petrolhead; June 2nd, 2022 at 10:18 AM.
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Old June 2nd, 2022, 10:43 AM   #78
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Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old June 6th, 2022, 01:22 AM   #79
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The bike weighs 68/73 kg front/rear with a stint's worth of fuel. Result is just a bit lower than my previous weighing I did 5kgs ago. With a kitchen scale and a wooden terrace, weighing is not an exact science.

I will keep trying to come up with ways to recude weight anyway.
New bar end weights are so light they pretty much serve as frame sliders.
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Old June 9th, 2022, 10:00 AM   #80
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Talking

I'd be pretty pissed at me, if I'd have taken the bike apart just to realize the IGN fuse was blown, after all .
Well while I was there I stripped off some nonessential wiring , a bracket I'd missed and couple connectors.
Friday evening and saturday morning, hopefully out on track.
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