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Old July 4th, 2013, 05:58 PM   #1
n4mwd
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Strange Carb issue

There seems to be a rash of carb problems posted here as of late. I will add mine to the mix.

My carbed 250 suddenly stopped letting me start it. After checking the valves, spark and other things, I have concluded that its most likely the carb. So I swapped the carb with the one that used to be in the EFI bike. It was running perfectly when I took it out and drained it. The carbed bike now started but had some issues. Later, at a store, it started acting really bad, was hard starting and stuttered a lot at lower speeds.

Today, I cleaned the original carbs and swapped them back for the EFI bike's carbs. It had moderate constriction in the jets both main and pilot.

The bike started and revved easily. So I took it for a ride and found that it seems like its running on one cylinder above 50 mph. Its dramatic. I hit fifty and there is virtually no power for acceleration. Once it drops below 50, I can feel the cylinder "switch" back on.

There is a fuel filter going into both carbs and they don't seem like they are clogged.

Any ideas what can be causing these bizarre symptoms? @choneofakind, @Motofool, @alex.s
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Old July 4th, 2013, 06:57 PM   #2
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The relationship with speed makes me think it's the CDI. You sure it's speed related or is it RPM related and just happens to be 50 mph in that gear?

I know it seems insignificant, but you got all the little passages too right? not just the individual jets?

All parts in the carbs looked functional right? No torn/creased diaphragms? No bent needles, etc etc?
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Old July 4th, 2013, 07:13 PM   #3
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Yesterday it was running at 70mph, but stuttering, with the EFI carb. Today, with the cleaned original carb, its running good on the low end, but has a problem at 50 mph.

Its related to speed. I can rev it at idle with no problem. It does seem a bit wimpy though - even under 50, but over fifty it makes a sound like it does when it runs out of gas. OR when you close the throttle at speed and let it coast. It sounds like one cylinder is trying to go and the other is trying to coast.

I'll take it out again tomorrow and pay closer attention to RPM and speed and gear and such.

Its possible that I missed some of the little passages. I will take it apart again tomorrow and see if it will help.

I don't think its the CDI because the CDI doesn't know anything about load - only RPM, but I do have a spare so I can swap it and see.

Sheesh. It sounds like freaking World War 3 out there right now.
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Old July 4th, 2013, 07:22 PM   #4
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Very strange, D.

I have had one cylinder firing intermittently only when the connectors to that coil were somehow loose.

Rpms' relate to vibration and to carburetors as well, but speed relates to airflow.
Could it be that the airstream is putting pressure on some wiring?
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Old July 4th, 2013, 07:30 PM   #5
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long range guesses

Clogged main jet?

Slider not rising?
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Old July 4th, 2013, 07:30 PM   #6
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That sound/feeling is what happened to my friend's bike when his air box boots let loose from the carbs. We could get it to redline at partial throttle, but as soon as we used WOT, the sound/wimpy feeling kicked in right around 9-10k every time.

Can you reproduce this effect at a lower speed? Say, WOT in first gear?

If you are using carbs that are clean and are jetted the same as always, I'm failing to see how this can be a carb issue; carbs are simple things that have very few moving parts...
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Old July 4th, 2013, 07:47 PM   #7
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....There is a fuel filter going into both carbs and they don't seem like they are clogged.

Any ideas what can be causing these bizarre symptoms?
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Originally Posted by n4mwd View Post
.... it makes a sound like it does when it runs out of gas. OR when you close the throttle at speed and let it coast.
Fuel filter is an easy thing to check. You've checked everything else, right?
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Old July 4th, 2013, 08:19 PM   #8
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Very strange, D.

I have had one cylinder firing intermittently only when the connectors to that coil were somehow loose.
I shook the wires to see if it would make any difference and it didn't. I am very close to getting an inductive timing light that I can ride with and monitor the spark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeRYoung View Post
Clogged main jet?

Slider not rising?
All four jets were removed and cleaned. I tested the sliders with compressed air at the intake holes and they both rose. I am thinking about swapping them for the EFI carb's diaphragms. They don't look bad, but the EFI sliders are newer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by choneofakind View Post
That sound/feeling is what happened to my friend's bike when his air box boots let loose from the carbs. We could get it to redline at partial throttle, but as soon as we used WOT, the sound/wimpy feeling kicked in right around 9-10k every time.

Can you reproduce this effect at a lower speed? Say, WOT in first gear?

If you are using carbs that are clean and are jetted the same as always, I'm failing to see how this can be a carb issue; carbs are simple things that have very few moving parts...
Carbs aren't really that simple. Especially motorcycle carbs. Lots of little in and outfits. Its very easy to mess one up. I was in a hurry so there is a good chance I missed something. I'll test it more thoroughly tomorrow.

Also, I think I forgot to push the airbox tube springs back forward onto the carb. It had a good seal, but would it make that much of a difference?

I'm 99% certain its the carbs, but I'm open to other things as well. I find it strange that a different carb would give it a totally different personality.

When I poured the gas out of the original carb into a jar this morning, I noticed it was kind of reddish brown. The gas in the tank is clear to slightly blue. The tank has no rust.

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Fuel filter is an easy thing to check. You've checked everything else, right?
Both carbs have their own filter. They are 30 micron filters and don't seem to be plugged up. It probably wouldn't hurt to change it anyway. The air filter seems normal. Not really any dirt on the outside.
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Old July 4th, 2013, 09:07 PM   #9
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i had a some what "similar issue", turned out to be the plug wires, high resistance in one, got worse with higher temps. only gave problems when engine was under load.

if theres a problem still after trying diff. carbs, its gotta be electrical or fuel related.
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Old July 5th, 2013, 05:46 AM   #10
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The problems that I experience seem to change every time I swap the carb.

Here is a few more details of the whole thing.

A few months ago, I was coming home and the chain started snapping and popping. I had acquired a few bad links on my brand new chain. I put it up on its center stand and started working on it and discovered the problem links.

In the mean time, I had to go places so I took the EFI bike. This lasted for about a month and the carbed bike just sat there. Finally, I decided to just put the carbed bike back together and ride it into town. Suddenly it wouldn't start. Its never failed to start before.

Since I was originally able to ride it into my garage with no problem, and after sitting for a month it suddenly has problems, that is why I'm leaning toward the carbs as the culrprit.

I do have another bike sitting there so I could just swap the coils temporarily for testing.
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Old July 5th, 2013, 09:07 AM   #11
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For some strange reason, its running fine now. I tried to video record it running bad, but it wouldn't do that with the camera running. I didn't do anything to it. This would lean more toward an electrical problem as its pretty hard for a carb to fix itself by sitting overnight.

Link to original page on YouTube.

I'll ride it around some more and see if it wont start acting up some more.

The white flashes in the video are a loose string in front of the camera. Sorry about that.

EDIT: Two things. When it starts, its a second or two before the tach starts working. And Second, watch what happens at 8K RPM. Its like the engine suddenly has a lot of extra power. It doesn't seem that unusual, but I thought I would mention it.

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Old July 5th, 2013, 12:47 PM   #12
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Also, I think I forgot to push the airbox tube springs back forward onto the carb. It had a good seal, but would it make that much of a difference?

I'm 99% certain its the carbs, but I'm open to other things as well. I find it strange that a different carb would give it a totally different personality.

When I poured the gas out of the original carb into a jar this morning, I noticed it was kind of reddish brown. The gas in the tank is clear to slightly blue. The tank has no rust.
Yes, the springs make that much difference. My buddy's bike was missing the springs. Even with the boots sealed, they leaked. Then they kept popping off the carbs. Major PITA that was temporarily fixed by some large hose clamps until his OE springs got delivered. While it might not be the only issue you're facing but it certainly won't help anything if they're leaking even a little.

Reddish brown gas is bad.

Couple things from watching the video: has the tach always taken a second or two to respond to the bike starting? Mine did that every time when I was using carbs and the OE CDI. Never gave me issue. But if it's a change for you, that might be something to keep in mind.

Also, if it's totally fine today, I'm not betting it's the carbs. Unless it had something to do with the red/brown crud you drained out?
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Old July 5th, 2013, 07:34 PM   #13
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I'm going to flip the springs forward onto the carb and try again tomorrow.

If they make that much of a difference, its possible that one of them slipped off yesterday and caused the over 50mph problem.
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Old July 6th, 2013, 11:46 AM   #14
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I took it out today and had a similar problem. It sputtered when a gust of wind hit it. And when I got to a stop sign, it tried to stall. I rode it for about 4 miles and it was mostly acting up when it was cold. The choke fixed it so I could go, but yesterday I didn't need that.

I am thinking its a hybrid problem. The carbs were also dirty, but the electrical is messed up too somehow. I will try swapping the coils from a known good bike and see if that does anything.
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Old July 6th, 2013, 12:36 PM   #15
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........I will try swapping the coils from a known good bike and see if that does anything.
Coils are transformers, they either work or do not.
Some quit working after getting hot and then come back to life after cooling down.

Your case, however, is air stream dependent, what make me suspect the hi-volt and low-volt wires of that side.

Caveat: Intermittent electrical problems can drive to drink.
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Old July 6th, 2013, 02:09 PM   #16
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Coils are transformers, they either work or do not.
Some quit working after getting hot and then come back to life after cooling down.

Your case, however, is air stream dependent, what make me suspect the hi-volt and low-volt wires of that side.

Caveat: Intermittent electrical problems can drive to drink.
No, alcohol will just make it worse. I think its eating up my fuel hoses as it is.

Anyhow, I will double check the wiring as well. I live on a dirt road and it doesn't seem vibration dependent, but a gust of wind will definitely set it off. That makes me think carbs again.

I wish I had a fiberoptic scope. I'd really love to see what my Petcock screens look like without having to drain the gas.
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Old July 6th, 2013, 07:02 PM   #17
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Dumb question: I noticed that you turned off the choke right away; why aren't you using the choke until it's warm and idling at a normal 1200-1400 rpm? Then it won't idle at 1000 rpm and die at stop signs while cold.

Gust of wind makes me think leaky intake, not carbs.

Have you taken it for any rides of length, not just farting around your neighborhood?

EDIT: also, watched the video again. 'Casually accelerate'? That's your definition of casually accelerating? dude... be nice to your bike when it's cold.
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Old July 7th, 2013, 05:19 AM   #18
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Its not usually necessary to use the choke for more than a minute. It runs 80-95F down here so it doesn't need a lot to get beyond the choke phase. When its running properly that is. Yesterday, it was trying to stall big time. When it got warm, it was idling normal.

The gusty sputtering is actually not all that new, its just worse now. I assumed it was something wrong with the diaphragms. I'm thinking I could probably use the air compressor to pressurize the airbox and check for leaks.

I went to the grocery store yesterday when I was out. Its about 2 miles each way. There were no problems starting there, but when I headed into the wind, the gusty sputtering started again - even though it was warm at that point. I don't think its a good idea to take it much farther than pushing distance until this gets sorted out.

Yeah, that's casual for me. I don't think I could do it any other way. That's why I don't want a 650 or ZX because it would get me into too much trouble.
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Old July 7th, 2013, 05:26 AM   #19
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I always used the choke until it was ready to idle normally. You could tell by how it felt after about 1-2 miles when you pulled off the line. I'd get a tiny bog that would tell me it was time to turn the choke off.

Anyhow, the easiest way to check for leaks is to spray individual parts of the intake with something flammable (WD40, starter fluid, etc) while the bike is running and see if the idle ever races. Not sure how you'd go about sealing the air box to see where it leaks when you put pressurized air in it. Remember that the air box is only dealing with a 1 psi difference (if that) between atmospheric air and air inside the air box. An air compressor will be overkill.

It still seems weird to me that this happens when in wind. Is it during a cross-wind or a tail wind or a head wind? It's not like the ninjette has a ram-air intake. All the air supply system is concealed by the fairings and should be pretty isolated from winds...
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Old July 7th, 2013, 05:43 AM   #20
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I always used the choke until it was ready to idle normally. You could tell by how it felt after about 1-2 miles when you pulled off the line. I'd get a tiny bog that would tell me it was time to turn the choke off.

Anyhow, the easiest way to check for leaks is to spray individual parts of the intake with something flammable (WD40, starter fluid, etc) while the bike is running and see if the idle ever races. Not sure how you'd go about sealing the air box to see where it leaks when you put pressurized air in it. Remember that the air box is only dealing with a 1 psi difference (if that) between atmospheric air and air inside the air box. An air compressor will be overkill.

It still seems weird to me that this happens when in wind. Is it during a cross-wind or a tail wind or a head wind? It's not like the ninjette has a ram-air intake. All the air supply system is concealed by the fairings and should be pretty isolated from winds...
This bike, in warm weather, if I need the choke much farther than my driveway, then its got something wrong with it. If you need more choke than that, then you might have your valves too tight. For most people, its best to set them on the wide side when you adjust them. You get better high end performance on the tight side, but that is only advisable for people racing because idling and starting are much worse.

I tried using propane once, and it did cause the engine to race. But even still, people use pods all the time and don't complain about gusty winds causing the bike to stutter. This happens almost exclusively in a headwind. So even though I might be doing 60mph, if I hit a sudden 10 mph headwind, it will sputter.
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Old July 7th, 2013, 08:17 AM   #21
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But even still, people use pods all the time and don't complain about gusty winds causing the bike to stutter.
I second that. Just out of curiosity did you check your flow rate? One of my float valves went out and instead of dumping fuel it restricted it in one of the carbs. Replaced them and voila. The only way I was able to tell they were bad was to check the rate of fuel flow. They looked fine and still 'sprung.'
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Old July 7th, 2013, 08:32 AM   #22
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This bike, in warm weather, if I need the choke much farther than my driveway, then its got something wrong with it. If you need more choke than that, then you might have your valves too tight. For most people, its best to set them on the wide side when you adjust them. You get better high end performance on the tight side, but that is only advisable for people racing because idling and starting are much worse.

I tried using propane once, and it did cause the engine to race. But even still, people use pods all the time and don't complain about gusty winds causing the bike to stutter. This happens almost exclusively in a headwind. So even though I might be doing 60mph, if I hit a sudden 10 mph headwind, it will sputter.
Yes, I know how to set valves, no they're not wrong... If your engine is idling at 1000 rpm right after starting it the first time for the day, you're in need of choke. I always kept it idling around 2000-2500 with choke until it felt right, then I turned the choke off, and the bike idled nicely at 1500 rpm. Choke helps it start easier, warm up quicker, and run smoother during the first start of the day.


Headwind. Interesting. So it's a load-based issue? Can you replicate it on a hill during a gradual roll-on (not a snap to WOT)? This still isn't pointing to a carb issue for me. Maybe I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem like fueling.

Only time pods gave me issue from wind was with cross-winds; but it wasn't huge like you're feeling. It was just a little stumble, not significant performance loss and funny sounds.
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Old July 7th, 2013, 12:22 PM   #23
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I second that. Just out of curiosity did you check your flow rate? One of my float valves went out and instead of dumping fuel it restricted it in one of the carbs. Replaced them and voila. The only way I was able to tell they were bad was to check the rate of fuel flow. They looked fine and still 'sprung.'
I blew into the fuel line and rotated the carbs in my hands so the floats would flip over. They cut off and opened up the air properly. That's not the best test, but I think its OK enough to prove adequate fuel flow.

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Yes, I know how to set valves, no they're not wrong... If your engine is idling at 1000 rpm right after starting it the first time for the day, you're in need of choke. I always kept it idling around 2000-2500 with choke until it felt right, then I turned the choke off, and the bike idled nicely at 1500 rpm. Choke helps it start easier, warm up quicker, and run smoother during the first start of the day.

Headwind. Interesting. So it's a load-based issue? Can you replicate it on a hill during a gradual roll-on (not a snap to WOT)? This still isn't pointing to a carb issue for me. Maybe I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem like fueling.

Only time pods gave me issue from wind was with cross-winds; but it wasn't huge like you're feeling. It was just a little stumble, not significant performance loss and funny sounds.
Yes, I figured you knew how to do your valves - I was just pointing out that it should be wide for most people and narrow for racers. And since you hang out at the track all the time, I didn't know your preferred gap.

The reason I mentioned valve gaps is because it makes a big difference when it comes to starting the bike. Wide gaps with a warm day and the choke isn't needed that much. I have even had no-start conditions with the choke only to find that it starts perfectly with the choke. If you look at the video in which it was running correctly, its already idling at normal speed by the first stop sign. But in either case, the problem isn't the choke because it acts up when warm too.

Its hard to tell if its a load issue with the current situation. Before, it would stutter in a gusty headwind and never going up a hill. BTW, hills are in short supply down here. Actually, we call them "overpasses." But with any acceleration, the bike would stop stuttering. It was more prone to stutter when the bike was going at a constant speed.

But currently, it does it so much that its hard to tell. Its definitely worse in a headwind. Acceleration doesn't seem to fix it like it used to.

I'm going to swap the coils tomorrow and see if that makes any difference. Also, I think I will examine the condition of the kill switch to make sure its not corroded or something. I never use it so it might be bad. The kill switch only kills the coils and not the ECU.

EDIT: I'm not going to do any WOT tests with the bike acting up like this. It might damage the crank.
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Old July 7th, 2013, 12:34 PM   #24
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my preferred gap: loose end of spec. Then I don't have to do as many valves when i check the clearances

Overpasses that's funny.

Okay, I'm going to think out loud here:

It gets funky when you're just at a constant throttle but a decent speed right? Any extra throttle cures this funk. Now, I know from playing with jetting that I could make a bike surge during constant throttle simply by lowering the needle a ton, but I'm not sure how to replicate that sound you're getting. Is it still making that funny sound consistently as well? You said the diaphragms are good, so that kinda rules out my sticky needles idea. I think I want to see how it does when you swap coils. While you're down there, double check all the wires you can see. It's possible something chewed them and they're shorting. But then, wouldn't that blow a fuse? and you've not mentioned any fuses, so that likely isn't it either.

Right now, I'm out of ideas.
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Old July 7th, 2013, 12:44 PM   #25
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I think I'll try another video tomorrow. Hopefully, it will act up to where you guys can see what is going on.

OH, one thing I forgot to mention. I noticed I forgot to reattach the little S shaped oil tube on the bottom of the airbox. Its just an oil vent so I don't think it caused any of this, but we'll see tomorrow.
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Old July 7th, 2013, 12:47 PM   #26
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Nah, that shouldn't do anything like this. If anything, it will just spew a little oil into the top of your transmission/bottom of your air box. No biggie there.
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Old July 7th, 2013, 02:41 PM   #27
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I think I'll try another video tomorrow. Hopefully, it will act up to where you guys can see what is going on.

OH, one thing I forgot to mention. I noticed I forgot to reattach the little S shaped oil tube on the bottom of the airbox. Its just an oil vent so I don't think it caused any of this, but we'll see tomorrow.
With the breather hose off, you have unfiltered air going into your engine, you also now have an airbox leak. If you replace the hose (or plug the hole) you may find a difference.
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Old July 7th, 2013, 03:41 PM   #28
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Have you tried hitting the brakes for a few secs while accelerating to load the engine? Seem's like an engine load issue, so my guess is on the plug wires or plugs, any carbon tracing on the plugs/boots? tried swappin out the cdi?
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Old July 7th, 2013, 04:06 PM   #29
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I swapped the CDI earlier on before I swapped the carbs. That was during a no-start condition. Swapping the carbs fixed the no-start problem and I haven't replaced the CDI since. The CDI is not generally sensitive to load, but could be reacting to different voltage levels. I will swap it out again just to be sure.

The plugs are brand new. I'll try the acceleration test you described.
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Old July 7th, 2013, 06:24 PM   #30
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Okay, story time.

My bike has been sitting a week (I know, I know ). With the FI kit, this means almost dead battery. Starts fine and runs fine. Until you get up to 10k. Then I get exactly what you described. Feels like 1 cylinder is in decel rumble while one is in WOT scream, and power cuts in half. Funny part is, as my ride progressed, my battery charged and my issue went away completely. No more cutting out. More funny part, before my track day, it also sat for a week, but I put it on the charger the night before. Never had the funky issue you describe the whole two track days.

How long was your bike sitting? Was it on a charger? Can you charge it overnight to rule out the battery? Humor me.
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Old July 7th, 2013, 07:56 PM   #31
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That's a good point. I don't think its the battery because its got a good charge under load. However, if the voltage regulator is passing too much AC into the system, it could cause the ECU to malfunction. I'm not saying that's the problem, but its easy enough to check.

I went ahead and put the battery on a trickle charge for the night.

Oh, on the charger thing. Its just as bad as the jumping from a running car thing. Anything bigger than a trickle charger needs to have the 30A main fuse pulled.
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Old July 8th, 2013, 08:00 AM   #32
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UPDATE

I took it out and it didn't act up. But I was able to faithfully recreate the slow idle issue. I pulled the oil breather hose off again and took it for a ride. It started with the slow idle stuff. Then I got off the bike while it was still running and put the oil breather tube back on. The idle slowly increased and stayed there.

I still haven't been able to reproduce the over 50 problem. But it does still act up in a headwind. It wasn't as bad today because the wind isn't as strong. I still have no clue on that.

I'm wondering about the carb boots. Anybody ever hear of those failing? Mine LOOK fine, but can they go bad and still look OK?
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Old July 8th, 2013, 08:28 AM   #33
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I have never heard of one or seen one fail. Only possibly way is if the bike was on fire or baking in the sun for a long ass time for the rubber to shrink and deform. Just check the bands and make sure they're snug and that the carbs are seated properly against it.

Air filter clean and not clogged? What about the snorkel? Flame arrester not clogged up as well?
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Old July 8th, 2013, 09:50 AM   #34
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I have never heard of one or seen one fail. Only possibly way is if the bike was on fire or baking in the sun for a long ass time for the rubber to shrink and deform. Just check the bands and make sure they're snug and that the carbs are seated properly against it.

Air filter clean and not clogged? What about the snorkel? Flame arrester not clogged up as well?
Filter seems fine. If I understand what you mean by snorkel, I think its clear. I don't know what you mean by flame arrester. This is a standard OEM bike so its just got an airbox.
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Old July 8th, 2013, 10:02 AM   #35
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The flame arrester is a perforated metal screen inside the airbox that prevents a flame from reaching the air filter media in the event of a "back fire". I cannot recall if you took your airbox out.. Perhaps some debris or animal built a nest in it or it's covered up in oil and dirt restricting airflow?

But still doesn't make any sense as to when you have a gust of wind make your bike act up though.
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Old July 8th, 2013, 12:27 PM   #36
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.............But still doesn't make any sense as to when you have a gust of wind make your bike act up though.
It is a sailbike !!!
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Old July 8th, 2013, 02:14 PM   #37
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I don't think I have a flame arrester then. I checked the air filter sponge and its still there. The only metal in there is a screen wire frame the the sponge leans up against. And there is another one that the "snorkel" pushes up against it from the back side.

The wind gust thing is definitely not my imagination because when I ride with the EFI bike on the same roads with a wind gust, it doesn't do it.

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Old July 8th, 2013, 02:35 PM   #38
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By flame arrester, I think he means the screen that holds the filter, without which, you would have a carby full of foam. I remember reading a magazine where someone wrote in about this on a honda, but I can't remember what the solution was.
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Old July 19th, 2013, 05:57 AM   #39
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Any progress on this?
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Old July 19th, 2013, 06:24 AM   #40
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Nope, its still doing the same thing. But its rideable and somewhat reliable right now. I haven't swapped the coils yet. Been busy. It seems that the majority of the problem was the carbs, but I'm thinking the "missing in the wind" thing is electrical.
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