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Old November 23rd, 2019, 02:38 PM   #1
Fixit
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How not to start a life with a ninja......

Greetings from California...
Long time off road rider and self mechanic. Owner of a few Harley's and new to ninja.



If you buy a "new to me ninja", at least have it running. I bought one that "needs the carbs cleaned a little".
It was way more than that. Every single common ninja mistake was made. Oil filter, fairing screws vs. gas tank, floats stuck and drain plug stripped out.

My thought was "hey I know this guy, a motorcycle wrecking yard owner, and he's been reliable in the past", so I drug it home.

Final thoughts, if you can't ride it home it better be because of a tire problem or a license plate problem........
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Old November 23rd, 2019, 02:53 PM   #2
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Fixit! Glad to have you aboard...
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Old November 23rd, 2019, 04:21 PM   #3
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Thanks.

Glad to have finally answered the question as to who Valentino might have been...

Waiting on admin to review/approve my post for a carb problem.

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Old November 23rd, 2019, 04:21 PM   #4
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Hello and welcome! I agree. Now that I'm almost 61 I find that life is too short to get involved in messy projects like that. Is it running OK now?
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Old November 23rd, 2019, 04:49 PM   #5
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ha

Running? yes. Running okay? Not really. Carb problems. Way too rich. Tried different carbs too. Hopefully the post comes up soon.
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Old November 23rd, 2019, 04:51 PM   #6
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Greetings & Salutations Michael!

What year 250 did you get?
Most likely some previous owner drilled out or installed larger jets after failed attempt at "cleaning" carbs.
Do search on here for "clean carbs ducatiman" to find pertinent threads with photos on carb-cleaning.
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Old November 23rd, 2019, 04:55 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple Jim View Post
Hello and welcome! I agree. Now that I'm almost 61 I find that life is too short to get involved in messy projects like that. Is it running OK now?
68 and no projects, no way, no how, no more

4 road legal, operational examples keep me plenty busy

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Old November 23rd, 2019, 04:57 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
Running? yes. Running okay? Not really. Carb problems. Way too rich. Tried different carbs too. Hopefully the post comes up soon.
I'm not sure what you mean by "Hopefully the post comes up soon.", but we have a pro on the board here who completely refurbishes these carbs for a reasonable price. I had him do mine and the difference was amazing. He's "Ducatiman", who just posted above.
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Old November 23rd, 2019, 05:42 PM   #9
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Thanks.

I posted about the carb problems and got a response that since I was new an admin had to review the post first.....

This is a 2005 250. It runs fine. I can't do wheelies on it, but haven't really tried either. I had it up to over 80 mph. Just runs rich and won't idle well below 2000 rpm. The floats had previously stuck, the gas in the engine was only half oil. Wait, I meant the oil was half gas. The oil filter was assembled wrong. A screw went through the tank. All the usual stuff.

Had the carbs out multiple times and cleaned/ inspected. Cannot find anything wrong.

Borrowed a set of carbs that have never been touched, the air/fuel screws still plugged and none of the bowl screws or any other screws were messed up either. these carbs looked like new. Both sets run rich. We are not new to carbs here. Been working on carbs for many years, but these ninja carbs are baffling.

I recently just took a Harley out of storage that sat for 7 years with the gas in it and cleaned out the tank and cleaned the carbs with no problems. This thing sat for far less and just won't cooperate.

Tried searching for "clean carbs ducatiman" and got a whole list of posts and trying to find a good specific one is hard without getting distracted and falling off the path.
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Old November 23rd, 2019, 05:47 PM   #10
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Is it rich at idle?
Rich in mid-range?
Rich in high-end?

Each is separate adjustment. If rich across board, you'll want to measure float-height and do wet test.

These are bikes that put out 150-hp/ltr, so everything is extremely precise. Tolerances in engine are measured in 10,000th of milimeter. Fueling from carbs has to be particularly accurate. Doesn't take much to throw them off: single grain of sand, tiny crack in hose. Loose hose-clamp, 2-drops of dried petrol, etc.

You'll also want to verify last time valve-adjustment was done. Wouldn't hurt to double-check and adjust them on looser end of range.
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Old November 23rd, 2019, 06:10 PM   #11
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ok, its an '05....mileage? Some background...basic configuration...stock airbox? Exhaust? Anything chopped, deleted, modded?

a Ca model? All Ca specific stuff is present?

Vacuum petcock confirmed functioning correctly?

Last known valve clearance inspection?

Were existing carb jet sizes documented? New float needles installed during your service sessions?

PS..an aside....a "previously owned" set of carbs with intact EPA caps has NEVER had its entire pilot circuits truly, properly cleared.
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Old November 23rd, 2019, 06:41 PM   #12
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ok, its an '05....mileage? Some background...basic configuration...stock airbox? Exhaust? Anything chopped, deleted, modded?

---miles 27800. Stock airbox. Stock exhaust. Trimmed fenders, due to a fall down go boom.

---Two brothers exhaust - removed permanently and installed stock. Way too loud and obnoxious for 1hp gain.

a Ca model? All Ca specific stuff is present?

---Yes Ca model. All there and even tried with all unused.

Vacuum petcock confirmed functioning correctly?

---Was working, now leaks vacuum. Petcock reconfigured to allow fuel flow.

Last known valve clearance inspection?

---unknown. Mileage is 27800

Were existing carb jet sizes documented? New float needles installed during your service sessions?

---Jets from carb that came with bike are 105 and 38. The borrowed carb is 98 and 38.

PS..an aside....a "previously owned" set of carbs with intact EPA caps has NEVER had its entire pilot circuits truly, properly cleared.[/QUOTE]

That's funny, sad and and true.


All the talk about the valve clearance, will that cause it to run rich? will get the plugs out and looked at again tomorrow. Dark now.
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Old November 23rd, 2019, 07:57 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
We are not new to carbs here. Been working on carbs for many years, but these ninja carbs are baffling.
When I sent my 250 carbs to Ducatiman, it was the first time in my 60 years that I've ever had anyone else work on carbs of mine. I don't regret it a bit.
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Old November 23rd, 2019, 08:34 PM   #14
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I'm a little rusty with the 250 as its been a few years since ive owned mine, but if you are near palmdale I'll happily give you a hand
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Old November 24th, 2019, 07:01 AM   #15
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Old November 24th, 2019, 08:26 AM   #16
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Old November 24th, 2019, 12:13 PM   #17
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Thanks.

Tried to reply with a quote of ducatiman and got the same response..." your post waiting for approval by admin" or something like that.

Was long too. Oh well.

still working on it. Waiting on parts store to open for plugs, even though I don't think that's the problem.

This thing is VERY rich at idle, rich all the time and still runs and still rich with the air/fuel screws fully closed. Baffling. There is nothing wrong with the carbs that we can find.
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Old November 24th, 2019, 01:40 PM   #18
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If pilot screws are closed and bike still running...an obvious sign that unmetered fuel is entering the venturi. Unless someone has installed giant jets, or hogged them out....you need to review and correct the problem within the float system.


No need to quote me in a reply to my few questions. And any additional pertinent info is welcome too.
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Old November 24th, 2019, 04:42 PM   #19
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been there...once or three times.

The jets from the original carbs are 105 and 38. The borrowed carb are 98 and 38.
The floats are set, measured and verified wet test.
The CA. system is unplugged. The tank is temporarily replaced with a can and tube flowing to the carbs, allows seeing and working easier.
The plugs were replaced. They were actually the wrong ones according to https://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Changi...rands_to_avoid They were the NGK cr7hsa, they are now the NGK cr8hsa. Like I said it was running rich and the plugs confirm this.

Everything looks good inside there. Unless there is some secret to the choke system I am currently stuck.
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Old November 24th, 2019, 05:23 PM   #20
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You may have two different generations of carbs

'88-07 pre-gen has 105-mains, 38-pilot, needles have sudden step in high-end
'08-12 new-gen has 98-mains, 38-pilot, needles have gradual taper at tip

Did you check to see if there are any shim-washers under needles?
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Old November 24th, 2019, 07:34 PM   #21
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All Keihin OEM standard needles are clearly marked, adjustable jet kit needles are not normally marked at all.
Pregen use 105 main, N16I needles both left and right..... newgen needles actually differ Left N9VU and right N9VW and used with the smaller mains.

So the set using the 105 mains and N16I needles should be correct for your gen.

I had asked if OP had documented carb jetting earlier in the thread. Needles are part of the jetting scenario and need to be confirmed as correct for the application, along with mains.

I dunno, he's checked all the right boxes to this point, all the right answers.

However, I'd like to ask, after his most recent efforts, if closing one pilot screw at a time will still allow that particular cylinder to run? This happens on both left and right cylinders? This occurs using either set of carbs?
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Old November 24th, 2019, 09:47 PM   #22
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Old November 25th, 2019, 06:10 PM   #23
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More work done.

While I was at work my mechanic friend has been busy.

He decided to purchase new o-rings for the pilot screws, just in case they were wrong/bad somehow. While out doing this he dug out the ultrasonic machine and dropped a carb in it. Turns out after multiple cleanings with carb spray and or pine-sol more stuff comes out of a couple passages, not a tremendous amount, but any is probably bad. So the pair is going to be bathed in the ultrasonic machine for some time.

The needles are N161 just as they are supposed to be.

This or little bike runs rich at idle and all speeds. The plugs showed this as well as the nose and eyes. No need to even get out the gas analyzer. The plugs are now the correct ones. Might not be today/tonight that the carbs are reassembled and installed. Will have more information after that occurs.

I might just sit around with a and wait while the ultrasonic machine buzzes it's little self happily away.
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Old November 26th, 2019, 06:59 AM   #24
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I'm not surprised to hear the carbs actually demanded more "attention" but must remind you ...you did post multiple times "nothing wrong with carbs we can find".....misleading our suspicions of traditionally "dirty" carbs.

With Keihin and Mikuni ...in addition to visuals, its the stuff you CAN'T see that'll bite you. Older carbed Kawasaki, Honda, Suzuki....all apply.

How many times we've read reports "they look clean inside!" while still running weird....owners tend to dismiss totally based on visual....the "hidden circuits" demand more than visual inspection.

As these bikes are ageing.... the above applies now more than ever!

Full service, if not restoration are becoming necessary or desired.
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Old November 26th, 2019, 02:43 PM   #25
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So true.

Proved this with both my ninja carbs and my honda pressure washer recently.

Carbs looked "brand new" per the visual. Cleaning , including ultrasonic and running some wires through resulted in motocycle engine running way more stable. honda pressure washer went from several seconds delayed reaction to handle , rpm jerking up and down and leaking gas to "oh man this is like new now"
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Old November 26th, 2019, 07:42 PM   #26
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Thanks.

It was weird, all the ports flowed cleaner freely. or seemed to at least.

Working on reassembly and reinstall. just too cold and dark at the moment.

SORRY CaliGrrl forgot to say thank you.

Never seen a carb so picky ever.

I have been hesitant to push wires through the passageways thinking I would scratch or hurt something. Is this a problem, or am I overthinking?
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Old November 26th, 2019, 07:51 PM   #27
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If you use thin copper wires and do not go hard it should be ok. It worked for me.

https://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Cleaning_the_carbs_1

This is the resource I used for the instructions
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Old November 26th, 2019, 08:02 PM   #28
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Quote:
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Never seen a carb so picky ever.
They are definitely not as tough as my grandfather's Soviet URAL's carbs. That crude piece of machinery managed to be operating on some byproducts of natural gas extraction process back in tough 90ies where the only thing related to gasoline that you could see on gas stations were price tags. My grandpa was able to source that substance somewhere because he was working in the industry. My feeling was that the octane rating of that liquid was close to 20 max as the engine was knocking with even minimal load and 10% of it was water. Draining water from the carb bowls was an item of the pre-ride checklist All the minimum amount of proper gasoline that they were able to source was consumed by my uncle's Jawa 350 which was as picky as these Ninjas Czech DNA would not allow to withstand any abuse.
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Old December 15th, 2019, 08:58 AM   #29
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Looks like I'm shipping a present to ducatiman for the holidays...

Going to ship these carbs off.

Oh and in case you were wondering, i'm not as old as the picture looks.
I just feel that way.......
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Old May 3rd, 2020, 10:17 AM   #30
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