...from bad to worse...my clutch nIgHTmaRE

[Purspeed]

Here is my clutch story...It all started about 4 weeks ago when I overheated my Ninja 250. My previous mechanic did not complete the service on the coolant (among other things) and apparantly the coolant was contaminated and not cooling the bike properly.

After it overheated, the clutch seemed to slip...a lot...almost leaving me stranded on the way home.

Long story short, I replaced the clutch with factory parts. But, when I went to start the bike and put it into gear, my bike did not roll forward in first gear. It simply was as if the clutch was not repaired at all.

I am at a loss.

To complicate things, the new Shell Rotella T Fully Synthetic oil that I now use is foaming up bigtime when you rev into the 13K range. I also get a bit of white smoke at this RPM. However, when I turn off the bike, the oil returns crystal clear.

There were no metal particles in the oil. All parts were installed correctly and torqued properly. Other than the EBC springss, the clutch discs and metal plates are brand new OEM kawasaki.

The clutch lever simply won't disengage fully. (I also replaced the clutch cable with a new OEM one)

Your input is appreciated.

(Btw, I did another oil change in case there was moisture in the system)

Below are a few questions that KKim asked me whilst PM'ing him on the issue.



1- what oil are you using? Shell Rotella T 5W-40 fully sythetic

2- where is the white smoke coming out from... the tail pipe? white smoke comes out of the tail pipe and a tiny, tiny bit from the connecting tubes of the exhaust tubing. Smoke only appears close to 13K rpm's reving...at lower rpm's there is no smoke.

3- if so,what does it smell like? i haven't really smelled it, but it does appear white in color. I will try to smell it and see what I find and report it back.

4- are you sure you replaced the plates and disks in the clutch in the right order? plates and disc's were installed in the propper fashion (and I have plenty of documentary photos to share with all). I also soaked the discs over night as a precaution. Everything was torqued with my SnapOn torque wrench to spec's. New gasket and new EBC springs and new OEM clutch cable. Clutch cable is installed but may not be adjusted properly.

Here's an intersting note for you:
Pulling in the clutch doesn't "feel" right. It's tough to describe but there is certainly a strong pull but it does not disengage when released. It's like the "return spring" is not functioning right and I have to manually push the clutch lever out. Any thoughts?

5- so, the bike is now doing the same thing as before the clutch was changed?
Yes, the bike is pretty much neutralling out or not engaging in the gears. The oil is crystal clear (checked again) and the bike starts right up and the engine sounds real strong.

The gear selector doesn't seem to be engaging the first gear, though. Sometimes it engages and you can feel it engage (slight klank feel) but then...nothing. No forward movement when you release the clutch lever...

[g21-30]

Letl's address the white smoke first. You said the engine overheated. This was the first clue and the second one, the oil is foaming!

White smoke often means that you are burning antifreeze. Have you noticed any leaking out of the reservoir tank while you are running it? Sometimes when the head gasket goes it will produce a passage for the antifreeze to pass from the capillaries into the combustion chamber. It is easy to check if you have an air compressor. Remove one of the sparkplugs and the radiator cap. Fill the radiator and then push some air into the sparkplug hole (get a good seal in case a valve is open). Repeat with both cylinders and watch for air bubbles coming up into the radiator. If bubbles come up or fluid is pumped out, the head gasket is blown and must be replaced.

Also check your oil for discoloration. If it is a brownish color it could mean your oil and antifreeze are mixing and has the potential to damage your bearings.

Now for the clutch. We need to remove as many of the variables as possible problems. Mount the bike on a rear stand. Loosen the clutch cable enough to remove it from its connection on the clutch housing (lower right side of the engine). With the engine off, try to operate the clutch housing lever by hand. Does it move freely? If not, the problem is with the installation. If it moves freely, then make sure the bike is in neutral (still mounted on the rear stand) and start the engine. You will probably need an assistant to help you shift the bike into first gear, since you will be operating the clutch housing lever by hand. Although you maybe able to reach underneath the bike and pull the shift lever down into first. Now release the clutch housing lever.

Did the rear wheel start turning? If not, then the problem is with the installation. If yes, then turn the throttle a little with your right hand and disengage the clutch housing lever with your left hand. Does the rear wheel slow down?

If all the above points to the clutch being OK, then your problem was with the clutch cable installation. Kelly's (kkim) DIY on lubing the cable will help you with the clutch cable.

Report back to us, after you check out the above.

Good Luck

[noche_caliente]

WTG Sam- very helpful info!

[Grn99Kawi]

overheating, white smoke and foaming oil is a headgasket or the start of a bad head gasket.. hopefully it is just the gasket.

[Purspeed]

Originally Posted by g21-30

Letl's address the white smoke first. You said the engine overheated. This was the first clue and the second one, the oil is foaming!

White smoke often means that you are burning antifreeze. Have you noticed any leaking out of the reservoir tank while you are running it? Sometimes when the head gasket goes it will produce a passage for the antifreeze to pass from the capillaries into the combustion chamber. It is easy to check if you have an air compressor. Remove one of the sparkplugs and the radiator cap. Fill the radiator and then push some air into the sparkplug hole (get a good seal in case a valve is open). Repeat with both cylinders and watch for air bubbles coming up into the radiator. If bubbles come up or fluid is pumped out, the head gasket is blown and must be replaced.

Also check your oil for discoloration. If it is a brownish color it could mean your oil and antifreeze are mixing and has the potential to damage your bearings.

Now for the clutch. We need to remove as many of the variables as possible problems. Mount the bike on a rear stand. Loosen the clutch cable enough to remove it from its connection on the clutch housing (lower right side of the engine). With the engine off, try to operate the clutch housing lever by hand. Does it move freely? If not, the problem is with the installation. If it moves freely, then make sure the bike is in neutral (still mounted on the rear stand) and start the engine. You will probably need an assistant to help you shift the bike into first gear, since you will be operating the clutch housing lever by hand. Although you maybe able to reach underneath the bike and pull the shift lever down into first. Now release the clutch housing lever.

Did the rear wheel start turning? If not, then the problem is with the installation. If yes, then turn the throttle a little with your right hand and disengage the clutch housing lever with your left hand. Does the rear wheel slow down?

If all the above points to the clutch being OK, then your problem was with the clutch cable installation. Kelly's (kkim) DIY on lubing the cable will help you with the clutch cable.

Report back to us, after you check out the above.

Good Luck

Thank you for the in-depth reply.

Regarding the coolant, the level seems the same. I did not notice any bubbling, but, then again, wasn't really looking for that. I will start it up soon and check and report back.

The bubbling starts when I start the bike...you can see the tiny bubbles flowing through the window. When you rev in the relatively high range, it's not bad...it's only when you get in the 13K range where the foaming oil and white smoke begins. I'm not sure if this information helps.

Oil color is crystal clear when the bike settles (in a few minutes after shutting it off).

Regarding the rear stand, I don't have one on the bike right now and I do not have a Pit Bull or anything. I will have to figure something out on that one. However, the lever that actuates the clutch discs does not return to its original position. So, I am not sure if the actuator "caught" the dowel type pin that pulls the clutch apart.

[g21-30]

You're welcome.

I suspect that you probably have a head gasket that is just starting to leak. I'm very familiar with the white smoke, having seen it in a couple of cars from my past. Both times it was a head gasket.

I have never worked on a bike clutch, but if it's not returning to its original position when released, you should consider taking it apart again.

[DerTeufel]

I agree with what Sam has stated..there is also something else to look at. Compare the clutch spring free length with the OE specifications. A little longer is fine..shorter is not. My past experience with EBC springs has been hit or miss, while the barnett springs are always good to go. Verify this when you reinspect the clutch installation.

[Purspeed]

Originally Posted by DerTeufel

I agree with what Sam has stated..there is also something else to look at. Compare the clutch spring free length with the OE specifications. A little longer is fine..shorter is not. My past experience with EBC springs has been hit or miss, while the barnett springs are always good to go. Verify this when you reinspect the clutch installation.

Thanks G21

@ DerTeufel, I checked the springs before install and they were longer that OEM. Thanks for that info.

[DerTeufel]

Very well. Double check your installation and clutch adjustments.

[Verus Cidere]

You might check the plate that keeps the clutch cable from rubbing on the housing. When I got Fury mine was missing and it ended up snapping my cable. It also made it feel really wierd. Check on that, 'cause apparently it's a common problem. That's the only thing I can think of.

[Purspeed]

Originally Posted by Verus Cidere

You might check the plate that keeps the clutch cable from rubbing on the housing. When I got Fury mine was missing and it ended up snapping my cable. It also made it feel really wierd. Check on that, 'cause apparently it's a common problem. That's the only thing I can think of.

Do you have a pic of the plate to which you refer? I am pretty sure that the problem is within the clutch assy or transmission because even without the cable, it does the same thing.

[Verus Cidere]

Oh, ok. In that case I'm wrong, it's not what I suggested. I don't have a pic of it, and I don't have a camera to take one, but it's the small plate that fits in between the clutch cable and the handlebar. I'll try to get a pic, but it may take a while.

[Purspeed]

Originally Posted by Verus Cidere

Oh, ok. In that case I'm wrong, it's not what I suggested. I don't have a pic of it, and I don't have a camera to take one, but it's the small plate that fits in between the clutch cable and the handlebar. I'll try to get a pic, but it may take a while.

Thanks for the tip. The cable has been routed properly (took off the tank and all) and has been adjusted now.

Update:
I adjusted the clutch lever and the clutch is releasing with full force now.

The white smoke *may* be due to the quantity of SeaFoam that I put in the gas tank (as a preservative since the bike was down for a while).

But, my bike is still not moving.

I have not done a leakdown or a engine compression check. I will do that as a precaution and to see if there is any problems with with a blown gasket or warped heads, etc.

A couple of motorcycle professionals, however, stated that there didn't seem to be evidence of this.

One thing I did notice is that my oil (in the window) is gone when I start the engine and returns (slowly) to normal levels when I turn off the engine. Is this normal?

The mystery is slowly being solved but the bike still wont move out of first gear at all.

[kkim]

Originally Posted by Purspeed

One thing I did notice is that my oil (in the window) is gone when I start the engine and returns (slowly) to normal levels when I turn off the engine. Is this normal?

normal

[DerTeufel]

Can you show us the order of the plates as you installed them?

[Purspeed]

Originally Posted by DerTeufel

Can you show us the order of the plates as you installed them?

@Kkim, thank you, sir.

@ DerTeufel: I certainly can but the images are quite large so I will have to reduce the size (I took at bunch of images for the clutch repair thing I was going to post).

But, I placed in the friction disc and then alternated the metal and friction and ended with a friction disc. The sharp edge on all metal discs are pointed outward uniformely. I then put in the cover and springs and torqued in a star formation to 9 newtons.

I then put on the clutch cover (with new gasket) and torqued in star formation to spec.

I proceeded to change the oil (twice) with new Shell Rotella T synthetic (had mineral oil in there before).

I installed the new clutch cable. And I adjusted it moments ago.

[DerTeufel]

Ok..just out of curiousity, are there indexing marks on the plates? Some bikes have this, and if installed incorrectly, the clutch won't function correctly.

Seems I may be on to something here..I looked a service manual for the previous generation 250's, and there is a specific way that the plates have to go on (per the manual: Install the friction plates so that the grooves run toward the center in the direction of clutch rotation, counterclockwise viewed from engine right side). The clutch pressure plate has an index mark on both the plate and the hub.

I hope this helps, and cures your problem.

[Purspeed]

Originally Posted by DerTeufel

Ok..just out of curiousity, are there indexing marks on the plates? Some bikes have this, and if installed incorrectly, the clutch won't function correctly.

Seems I may be on to something here..I looked a service manual for the previous generation 250's, and there is a specific way that the plates have to go on (per the manual: Install the friction plates so that the grooves run toward the center in the direction of clutch rotation, counterclockwise viewed from engine right side). The clutch pressure plate has an index mark on both the plate and the hub.

I hope this helps, and cures your problem.

Perhaps you are on to something. The friction plates' grooves do run counterclockwise towards the center; however, I could not locate the index on the pressure plate upon installation. So, I simply just installed it.

Does anyone happen to know if the pressure plate has to be indexed?

[g21-30]

Originally Posted by Purspeed

Perhaps you are on to something. The friction plates' grooves do run counterclockwise towards the center; however, I could not locate the index on the pressure plate upon installation. So, I simply just installed it.

Does anyone happen to know if the pressure plate has to be indexed?

The service manual says to start with a friction plate and alternate with a steel plate. Notice the two "CAUTIONs" in the attached picture!

[Purspeed]

Originally Posted by g21-30

The service manual says to start with a friction plate and alternate with a steel plate. Notice the two "CAUTIONs" in the attached picture!

Good point. The friction plates are installed correctly, but the pressure plate was not indexed at all.

Does anyone know if the pressure plate has to be oriented somehow? I did not notice any indexing points when I took the clutch apart again.

[DerTeufel]

What, don't believe the service manual as written by the factory? Do you have a service manual?

[Purspeed]

Originally Posted by DerTeufel

What, don't believe the service manual as written by the factory? Do you have a service manual?

It's not that I don't believe the manual. It's that I could not locate any indexing points on the pressure plate. There were two tiny bosses protruding at 180-degrees apart, but they looked like casting bosses.

Do those correspond to anything? What does it have to index to?

[kkim]

How's it going, bud? Where are you now in figuring this out??

[DerTeufel]

This is the best picture I can provide. It shows a mark somewhere on the pressure plate, and another on the hub. I know that indexing marks are not often plain or easy to see.

[Purspeed]

Originally Posted by kkim

How's it going, bud? Where are you now in figuring this out??

@ Kkim and DerTeufel:

Thanks for all of the help so far. You guys *appear* to be on the money about the install going wrong.

Apparantly, I did not index the pressure plate properly. It took everything apart and reinstalled the discs/plates and pressure plate. When I indexed the pressure plate properly, it created a nice "locked in" seal against the last friction plate. I am cautiously optimistic now.

The clutch cable was simply not adjusted. (that was the second problem)

Since one of the clutch cover bolts was damaged, I have to wait until tomorrow to get that replaced and fix everything up.

Provided that the improper indexing was the problem (and it certainly looks that way), then I am still left with the white stuff and bubbles or foaming oil. However, I did read from another that the Rotella Synthetic tend to bubble, but I am not sure if I am just trying to convince myself that all will be okay...

Now, I do have one last question and exhaustive research did not give me an answer: what is the torque specifications for the clutch cover?

I cannot find it anywhere so I went with the nominal torque spec for the bolt. I would rather have the actual number.

Also, I got some oil on the new paper gasket. Is that a problem?

Anyone...anyone...

[DerTeufel]

Very nice. Hopefully that takes care of your clutch problems. As for your foamy oil, once you get your bike operational, ride it for a bit, then check. I get a small amount of condensation in the crankcase after startup, but after the bike has completely warmed up, and I have ridden it for a while, the oil clears right up.

[noche_caliente]

On the new gen it's 87 inch pounds... hth

[kkim]

That's good news.

The manual doesn't have torque values for the cover bolts?

[HKr1]

Originally Posted by Purspeed

Now, I do have one last question and exhaustive research did not give me an answer: what is the torque specifications for the clutch cover?

I cannot find it anywhere so I went with the nominal torque spec for the bolt. I would rather have the actual number.



Anyone...anyone...

87 in-lb

[Purspeed]

Originally Posted by kkim

That's good news.

The manual doesn't have torque values for the cover bolts?

@HKr1, Noche and DerTeufel:

Thanks for the info.

@ Kkim, the manual nor wiki had that information. The manual refers to the clutch cover as "clutch cover" but in the torque area, no such designation exists...

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by kkim

That's good news.

The manual doesn't have torque values for the cover bolts?

Page 2-7 of the service manual, under the heading "CLUTCH" lists the clutch cover bolts as 87 in/lb torque, as previously noted. Page 6-3 of the service manual also lists the clutch cover bolts as 87 in/lb torque.

Originally Posted by Purspeed

Now, I do have one last question and exhaustive research did not give me an answer: what is the torque specifications for the clutch cover?

I cannot find it anywhere so I went with the nominal torque spec for the bolt. I would rather have the actual number.

Also, I got some oil on the new paper gasket. Is that a problem?

Anyone...anyone...

Page 6-7 of the service manual, under installation of the clutch cover says:

"•Scrape the old gasket from the surface of clutch cover
and crankcase, and apply silicone sealant on the mating
surface [A] of the crankcases. •Install the new clutch cover gasket.
Special Tool - Kawasaki Bond (Silicone Sealant): 92104
-0004
•Turn the clutch release lever [A] counterclockwise fully [B]
and install the clutch cover."

EDIT TO ADD THAT THIS INFO COMES FROM THE 08+ SERVICE MANUAL

[Purspeed]

Originally Posted by Banzai

Page 2-7 of the service manual, under the heading "CLUTCH" lists the clutch cover bolts as 87 in/lb torque, as previously noted. Page 6-3 of the service manual also lists the clutch cover bolts as 87 in/lb torque.



Page 6-7 of the service manual, under installation of the clutch cover says:

"•Scrape the old gasket from the surface of clutch cover
and crankcase, and apply silicone sealant on the mating
surface [A] of the crankcases. •Install the new clutch cover gasket.
Special Tool - Kawasaki Bond (Silicone Sealant): 92104
-0004
•Turn the clutch release lever [A] counterclockwise fully [B]
and install the clutch cover."

Thanks for the info. I have an electronic copy of the manual and have yet to find the info on the torque specs.

[Banzai]

Sorry that I didn't mention where that comes from, I got that info from the 08+ manual, and I don't think there's been any changes at all in that part of the bike.

[Purspeed]

Originally Posted by Banzai

Sorry that I didn't mention where that comes from, I got that info from the 08+ manual, and I don't think there's been any changes at all in that part of the bike.

Oh, I see. Thanks for the post. It's very helpful. I had to replace a few bolts and get some lubes and things and I will be finishing the assembly (hopefully) tomorrow.

I will do a complete write-up including (a ton) of images.

The next time someone will do this repair/upgrade, they will not have any of the same problems I did.

Also, after some research, it appears as if SeaFoam causes quite a bit of white smoke. It also appears to cause bubbling/foaming of the oil.

So, I suspect that the SeaFoam may be responsible for my smoke issues since my smoke is white and seems consistent with what everyone else is saying about the effects of pouring this stuff in the engine/gas.

[kkim]

you're using the seafoam in the oil, too?

[DerTeufel]

You guys sure are SeaFoam happy..

[Purspeed]

No, I only used it in the gas tank. But, I'm hopeful that there may be some residual SeaFoam mixing in (wishful is more like it).

UPDATE:

I finished the install, adjusted the clutch cable and started the bike.

The clutch appears to work properly and is very grabby. I have not really ridden the bike, only up the driveway a bit, but when I gas it, the bike boggs down pretty good and sometimes stalls out.

I am not sure if it is because of stale gas in the tank (over 6 weeks old) or if it is the feared engine gasket problem.

The coolant looks good. The oil looks good. I'm still getting some smoke, though.

Until I can actually ride it, I won't really know, I suppose.

On the upside, the clutch cable was lubed (per KKim's excellent article) and adjust and the clutch feels great.

I do notice that when I release the clutch from a gear in neutral, I hear/feel a noticeable pulse coming from the clutch. I am not sure if this is normal or not, however. Any input would be great...

[Purspeed]

Originally Posted by DerTeufel

You guys sure are SeaFoam happy..

SeaFoam is incredible stuff when used in moderation. It's one of the very few additives that actually works.

[DerTeufel]

6 week old fuel isn't anything to be concerned about.

[kkim]

does the "bogginess" ever clear out after the bike warms up?

check your plugs.