VERY, loud clicking after valve job

[headshrink]

I just finished my first DIY a valve adjustment and am hearing some very loud clicking. I had clicking prior to opening it up, but purchased a new cam chain tensioner, thinking that would fix it. Now the ticking sounds louder than the exhaust note (at idle).

I ran into some issues during the valve adjustment, and had another thread on it, but will only give a brief description because I fear it may be relevant.

Measuring the valves seemed to go ok, with the exception of one valve (L exhaust on #2)... this measured .051mm clearance! Now that is tight. I used a mechanics magnet to lift the buckets and shims..... but the tight one had NO shim in it. Which means a) I either dropped it somewhere in the engine, or b) there was never one in there because the valve was already wayyyy tight! The only thing I do know, is there is no shim under that valve now, AND for some reason I had difficulty getting measurements on that one, but after reshiming everything else, it seemed to show a gap, but I can't tell you what it was because it seemed to be different each time, from each angle (yes, I did rotate the lobes).

I am afraid to test drive it now because it is so loud, and I don't know if it is due to a shim floating around, something not secured properly (I used a torque wrench), messed up valve.... I really don't know what to do. It is my commuting vehicle, so it is also a big inconvenience.

EDIT: I just took it out for a test ride, since I felt I really needed more diagnostic info. As I rev it gets even louder (the loudest noise I hear on the bike).

[SteveL]

You are going to have to strip it again all valves have shims if you have one that doesn’t and still has no gap you have a big problem. I would start with the valves you think are OK just to check and then you know it’s only one to work on. Measure the faulty one if there is no gap insist just to see if the bucket is sticking in the up position, if this is the case remove the bucket and look for signs of rubbing if its really tight you may have to buy another bucket.

Steve

[headshrink]

Based on my description, does the sound apear more likely to be cam chain or valve related?

I'll check the bucket for wear as you suggested, but if that is not what is causing the stange measurments, what is my next move?

[SteveL]

A cam chain makes a rubbing sound, assuming that your motor had not been to pieces before there is nothing else to look at. If there was no shim in that bucket when you took it to pieces then it’s been apart before, in which case the only thing I can think is that the valve seat has gone and the valve stem is now too long preventing a shim being used and making adjustment impossible. I still think its all down to the bucket sticking making adjustment difficult.

Steve

[headshrink]

I sure hope you are right about the bucket.

Supposedly my engine was opened once, when I had the dealer do the 7.5K service. He said they didn't need to shim because it was just within specs.

So if it is the bucket, would you suspect a shim is floating around somewhere?
If there was no shim and the valve seat is gone, does that mean my engine is dead at 15K miles?

[SteveL]

There is no way the shim can get out of the bucket, the valve seat is unlikely but not impossible. New seats can be put into a head or in the worst case it’s a new head.

Steve

[randomwalk101]

If it make you feel better, a used engine is only around 300 on eBay. Can't help you with the valve adj thing cuz I've never done it. Good luck
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[CZroe]

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

If it make you feel better, a used engine is only around 300 on eBay. Can't help you with the valve adj thing cuz I've never done it. Good luck
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Wow. That's less than my whole service when I got my valve job. How much do you think it costs to install if you can't really do that yourself?

[M-Oorb]

i'd guess more than 300 plus youd still wanna make sure the valves in the new engine are to the right specs.

[HKr1]

Originally Posted by headshrink

So if it is the bucket, would you suspect a shim is floating around somewhere?
If there was no shim and the valve seat is gone, does that mean my engine is dead at 15K miles?

What was the clearance after putting it back together on that one, 051??

All the clearances were in spec(except that 1) after putting it back together? The cams were lined up too? < Turned the motor around a couple times & checked.

[backinthesaddleagain]

Would a compression test, or leakdown test, help determine the valve seat being good or shot?
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[HKr1]

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

Would a compression test, or leakdown test, help determine the valve seat being good or shot?
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Depends on whats wrong with the valve seat. If its just soft, would say no. Not until all the clearance was gone/taken up.

I cant see kawasaki letting that one valve slide without a shim. The smallest shim is like a 10th of an inch. That would be crazy.........

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by HKr1

What was the clearance after putting it back together on that one, 051??

All the clearances were in spec(except that 1) after putting it back together? The cams were lined up too? < Turned the motor around a couple times & checked.

Correct about others being in spec and cams align properly (per SM). I don't recall the final clearance on the one valve... .051 was the initial clearance. Remember too that I didn't find a shim, which makes me really worried I may have dropped it inside the engine, OR wonder if it was never there because it was so tight possibly to begin with (because it would make it tighter, not because it was too tall). It would stand to reason that remeasuring after putting the cams back on would tell me if there was ever a shim under there, but for some unknown reason I couldn't get a measurement with reliable, repeatable data. I didn't have this problem with any other valve. I will be tearing it down again late tonight, and hopefully I'll have new info.

[Momaru]

Good luck Bob, eagerly awaiting details of the second teardown. Which valve was it that's so bloody tight/sans shim? If it's 0.051mm clearance even without a shim, I daresay you might need some new valve parts on that one.

[HKr1]

Good luck, hope you get it sorted out.

Totally sucks having to pull cams for a valve adjust

[Momaru]

Originally Posted by HKr1

Good luck, hope you get it sorted out.

Totally sucks having to pull cams for a valve adjust

Sucks more having to do it twice within a week.

Bob, in the other thread you mentioned having a "HUGE" gap on the 'mystery valve' after re-shimming the others but closing it up anyway due to bedtime. My $$ says that's your noisy valve.

If the shim was dropped and you can't find it in the valve section even after looking into the spring housing colums/everywhere else up there (I suggest a dentist's mirror or something similar and a bright flashlight), next place to check is the other end of the cam chain shaft, aka the clutch casing and the bottom of the crank case/oil sump. If you do the clutch housing, you'll likely need another clutch cover gasket as they are rather fragile. Personally I'd do an oil drain first and if it doesn't come out with the oil while draining, pull the oil filter and the oil screen that's just above the drain plug. Basic instructions for the oil screen are on 7-9 of the FSM; worth noting it's 5 vertical bolts, not 3 as the illustration seems to suggest and there is a flat gasket in there helping hold the screen up with its rubberized base.

[addy126]

This is why I still use my Service Guyz for certain mechanical issues.....

[HKr1]

Originally Posted by addy126

This is why I still use my Service Guyz for certain mechanical issues.....

And I would bet more than 50% of the shops wouldnt even pull the cover to check!

[backinthesaddleagain]

I hear alot of dealer horror stories. Mine has been around before the big 4 Japanese. The reason is customer service. The times I pop in the back all the techs have whatever torn apart, rebuilding a 636 motor that another dealer dropped a shim into for instance, but never told the owner. Recently local Hon/Suz dealer who did a lot of watercraft went under. No one was surprised as it was due to lack of customer base. Get them in, sell to them, forget them.

[Momaru]

Yep. The Kawai dealer I took mine to that supposedly had a good rep left me a couple hundred bits of sand and very small gravel floating 'round my valves because they didn't clean off the high/aft end of the engine head cover (where the coolant pipe goes in). At least I know they opened it up though...

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by Momaru

Yep. The Kawai dealer I took mine to that supposedly had a good rep left me a couple hundred bits of sand and very small gravel floating 'round my valves because they didn't clean off the high side engine head cover (where the coolant pipe goes in). At least I know they opened it up though...

That stinks. They should wipe off/air blast before pulling off any covers.

[headshrink]

After another night of wrenching 'till 3-4am, then again 'till midnight, I have redone the valves and gotten it together enough to fire it up. Here is the data:

Clearances after attempt #1:
Cylinder 1) Ex = 0.305 & 0.254
In = 0.203 & 0.203
Cylinder 2) Ex = no shim & 0.279
In = 0.203 & 0.203

I also added a new cam chain tensioner.
At this point I got the loud clicking that I origionally wrote about.....


on to attempt #2 (current)
Upon tear-down #2, I learned a couple of things. Although I don't think it was serious, I didn't tourque in proper sequence. I used a star pattern, but failed to initially note the significance of the numbers stamped next to the appropriate bolts. This, I came to realize, directs you to tighten the bolt that go through the little cylendrical stand-offs first, thereby compressing the peice smoothly and not putting latteral pressure on them. I also figured out that I totally FORGOT to use moly grease when reassembling the cams, shims, and buckets. I did see some minor scoring upon the second tear-down, that I THINK may not have been there the first time.... I am not too concerned, since I only put about 2-3 miles on the bike in this condition.
I also learned, through repetition, that my origional measurements (these are not listed) may have been inaccurate. I noticed that when I flexed the feeler gauges more, I could sometimes get a thicker gauge in. Also for the second attempt, I ONLY took measurements on cylinder one at TDC2 (both positions), and for cylinder two at TDC1 (both positions). Of course I liberally applied moly grease upon reassembly this time too. I was also carefull to count the cam chain pins upon reassembly/alignment to ensure it wasn't too tight. Oh yeah, about the buckets..... I didn't notice any more wear on the mystery bucket than the rest, but I think they all showed more wear after FOBAR attempt #1.

Here are the clearences after attempt #2:
Cylinder 1) Ex = 0.229 & 0.279
In = 0.203 & 0.203
Cylinder 2) Ex = 0.254 & 0.279
In = 0.203 & 0.203

Note: the gap in the mystery valve was too big to measure easily, so I looked at all the other numbers and GUESSED. Ironically, I got my BEST results from guessing, since this valve ended up measuring closest to the mean valve measurement!

When I fired her up, the LOUD clicking had subsided to what I am finding on the internet is affectionatly called the "Kawi click." It basically sounds similar to when I started (which is why I bought the cam chain tensioner)..... but at least it isn't worse. I don't know if this is because some of my valves are a LITTLE on the loose side, although in spec, or not. Since it was around midnight, I didn't have the heart to rev her up, but think I have enough confidence in her to ride her to work tomorrow.

I still have NO IDEA what happened to the mystery shim!

[headshrink]

Commuting update:

Well, I got the fairings back on this morning and rode her to work. Things are much smoother now, both the sound and the feel. Although I do hear valve train noise then the fairings are off, they do dampen them.... and when I am sitting on the bike ready to roll, I don't hear the original cam chain tensioner click like I think I was origionally.... it is at least a little less clicking. But most importantly the LOUD one seems long gone. I still have to go back and sync the carbs, but that should be an issue.

So if there is a rogue shim in there, lets hope it drops out when I change the oil tonight!

[headshrink]

Not to belabor the issue, but here is my week later update (and question):

After everything seemed quiet and smooth from my last post, I finished the remaining major parts of the 15k service (brakes, carb sync and oil/filter).

Although I was watching for it, I did not see anything come out with the oil. I didn't run it through a screen, so theoretically I COULD have missed the mystery shim, but I don't think so. I did forget to do the oil screen, but that is on my list for next time. I just re-read all your comments and noticed a couple hints on where to look for the shim (clutch housing, etc). After running it all week for my commute, I have not noticed any indications of trouble (noises, funny feel or vibrations, etc). I haven't yanked the clutch housing at this point yet.

Upon playing back the mental tape of when I removed the bucket, I didn't carry it over the clutch side abyss... so I don't know how it could get down there... BUT I don't think I mentioned the spark plugs had been removed by then.... But if it was inside a cylinder, would there not be immediate feedback that something was wrong when I fired it up??? A friend said it could theoretically exit an exhaust valve and lodge in the cat.... sounds strange to me.

If it isn't found, I will ALWAYS wonder what happened (unless I find it rolling around the garage floor someday (I have checked repeatedly).
So..... do you all think it is OK to breath a sigh of relief and ride on without knowing for certain what happened to the mystery shim?

[Momaru]

One way or another, you would've known instantly upon crank-up that there was something very wrong if it fell in the cylinder via spark plug opening.

But to play devil's advocate that it did... After messing with those valves and considering the height of the cam lobes, it seems unlikely to me that the shim could escape the piston chamber via exhaust valve. Just not enough clearance, unless the shim was destroyed in there, which also seems unlikely given lack of other symptoms persisting. IF it did fall in and IF it did make it out an exhaust port, the cat would be the place to look.

In my very unprofessional capacity as hobbyist-mechanic, if the engine's acting fine, I wouldn't worry about it overmuch. It's possible it rolled off into a dark corner. If it was in the clutch housing (could have bounced/rolled from another area where did fall) and you've been riding it for the last week, it's most likely worked its way down to the oil screen and will stay there until your next oil change.

[headshrink]

Well, that does make me feel much better, thanks.

[jpatter]

I did mine last week. Spent around 30 hours doing the whole thing. I do have a technical question at the end. Ill just tell you a little bit about my valve clearance/adj, feel free to school me on anything that i have done.

1. Dumped sand that was sitting on top of the head cover. I dropped oil, and rinsed with kerosene.

2. shimmed properly, but when it came back to re-timing and chain tensioner. I think i removed the cams, cam caps, cam housing thing, and cct atleast 7 times before i got timing right. tightening my cam caps seemed to make my chain and cams shift, and then when i put the cct on, (kawa mech told me via phone that it will go back into time when tensioner is put back on) it still wasnt right.

So, after getting the timing finally right, i put it all back together. It was really rewarding to bring my bike back to life btw....... But, now I have an issue with a clicking noise.

I am wondering if I wore out my chain tensioner by fumbling around with it each time i re installed it.

My clearances were legit, torques were in spec, moly'd everything FSM called for, injected oil into the 8 places. Maybe its a normal clicking noise? Its not terribly loud, and also, my ex clearances were less then .03mm, so if you think its ok to neglect the periodic maint schedule, you are wrong. either put the bike up and DIY if you have the balls, or pay the man.

Any ideas on how to diagnose this problem would be great. annnnd, if you have any ideas on how to work on a bike w.out developing back/knee problems, that would be great also .

[headshrink]

I still have some moderate ticking in mine.... and this is with a new CCT. I'm tagging along to see if there is an answer, because I don't have one. It has been about 1.5K miles since I did mine, and I am unaware of any problems (other than clicking), so maybe it is all good. Who knows?

[Momaru]

I've also got a bit of chatter with mine at 12,600mi. It's been some 2000mi since I did my valves (did 'em early while I was checking on some deeper engine stuff) and put in the new CCT. Went back in and checked to make sure I didn't botch a clearance about 1000mi ago (ticking worried me) and everything was well within spec. I'm wondering if the ticking is just the Kawi characteristic that I've been told about a number of times.

[headshrink]

I'm thinking the same thing. Funny it didn't do it new though.

[bobguy]

Just did my 12k valve job...a little early. But after initially ordering the wrong shims...dammit....I got it worked out. I've got the same ticking noise. It isn't loud and is barely noticeable with the fairings on...but it still makes you wonder.

Anyway I am sensing a growing consensus that this is a normal ninja characteristic....or we are all making the same mistakes.

[bobguy]

Originally Posted by headshrink

I'm thinking the same thing. Funny it didn't do it new though.

it didn't do it new? or we never really noticed it new???

[jpatter]

Originally Posted by bobguy

it didn't do it new? or we never really noticed it new???

I agree.

I think ill be skeptic until i make it to the next adjustment, but thats the way I am.... cant wait till i have two bikes so i can work on one without the urgency to get riding again.

[bobguy]

Originally Posted by jpatter

I agree.

I think ill be skeptic until i make it to the next adjustment, but thats the way I am.... cant wait till i have two bikes so i can work on one without the urgency to get riding again.

Wow! What and excellent excuse to buy another bike! now I HAVE to have another!

[randomwalk101]

Hehe.. You guys make me wonder and make me wanting to run out there to start up the bike and listen for the click/loudness right now
may be it'll be a good thing as a ref point so when I do my valve adjustment I will know how loud it should be
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[Momaru]

Might even make a recording at measured/marked points from the engine for an unbiased (except perhaps mic frequency pickup sensitivity) comparison.

[deezyellownutz]

I've owned several Kawasakis from 93' to present new and used and they all tick. Not the kind of scary my engine is going to blow up tick.

[headshrink]

I wonder if those of us that bought new/0 milage are more sensitive to these things. I think I am more prone to noticing the little things. I do agree John, that for most it is probably the old "Kawi-click."

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by Momaru

it's [shim] most likely worked its way down to the oil screen and will stay there until your next oil change.

I finally got to the screen today.... nothing is there. Strange.

[randomwalk101]

So you were able to use the shim and no more sound now?
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