lowsided yesterday.. no gear =(

[sombo]

Originally Posted by N Ja

Poor description on his part, I read that his own actions caused his accident by turning and braking at the same time, which lead to loosing control of his own vehicle.

So it was a misunderstanding than? Perhaps both parties here can apologize and (virtually) shake hands?

I guess it comes from me being a critical thinking and an electronic technician used to having to troubleshoot stuff that causes me to pick up on details others might miss. I'm glad we could figure out how this started between you two, now I hope we can all come to some form of understanding and not let heated emotions get in the way of friendship on a very nice community forum?

[Toly]

Originally Posted by sombo

Apparently you have a hard time with both reading details and visualization. Picture this:

TWO lanes; he is in the RIGHT lane with NO ONE in front of him. To his right is a wall blocking any further movement to the right. To his left in the LEFT lane are two cars one behind the other. The first one brakes hard so that the second car that's in the LEFT lane jumps into the RIGHT lane right on top of him on his bike. He was completely in control of his bike at all times in the RIGHT lane. What he was not in control of were the idiots in the cars in the LEFT lane. The only innocent party here is him on his bike in the RIGHT lane, in complete control of his vehicle. The two cars in the LEFT lane are guilty of multiple counts of stupidity that lead to the accident: following too closely, sudden hard braking, lane shifting w/o looking or clearing blind spots. His only fault: being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I hope this helps clear things up a bit.

I don't know all the circumstances, but I cannot agree with being in the wrong place at the wrong time... not at all. That's like resigning your fate to a couple of idiots around you. It appears he failed to anticipate idiotic moves on the cagers' part and prepare accordingly.

You could say it's too much to ask... but it isn't: he clearly saw the cages, they did not fall from the sky, nor they jumped from the brush into the road. Thus, he was aware of them - from awareness should come anticipation, and preparedness - by always leaving yourself a way out, and being spring-loaded to execute the avoidance maneuver at any moment.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Toly

I don't know all the circumstances, but I cannot agree with being in the wrong place at the wrong time... not at all. That's like resigning your fate to a couple of idiots around you. It appears he failed to anticipate idiotic moves on the cagers' part and prepare accordingly.

You could say it's too much to ask... but it isn't: he clearly saw the cages, they did not fall from the sky, nor they jumped from the brush into the road. Thus, he was aware of them - from awareness should come anticipation, and preparedness - by always leaving yourself a way out, and being spring-loaded to execute the avoidance maneuver at any moment.

you're right, i have no objection admitting a more skilled rider probably would have been able to brake harder to avoid it. hell i've seen people stoppie while leaned over pretty far... look at those motogp guys. but let me reinforce my previous statements.

turn lane. both making a left hand turn. we both go at the same time, but i went a little slower than they did (not to mention the fact they had the inside line so a shorter distance to travel). the guy slammed on his brakes directly after the turn, i was just barely picking up to go straight when the chick cut over and hit me. i tried my best to pick it up as much as i could to the right while braking... unfortunately there wasn't enough room with the curb and wall, and she hit my front wheel/front head area of the bike with her rear bumper/quarter panel, stopped ahead after and looked, then fled. was there any indication he was going to slam his brakes? no. was there any indication she was going to cut over because he slammed his brakes? not if there wasn't an indication he was going to randomly slam his brakes for no reason. (there was no obstruction, nothing... i think maybe he realized he was going the wrong way or something? maybe he wanted to stop and chat with the people waiting in the opposing red light? really not sure why he slammed his brakes at all... there was no reason for it that i can come to... maybe hes just a dick)

the reasons for why someone does something unpredictable are pointless. the fact is, it was unpredictable. people don't normally slam on their brakes for no reason. people don't normally have their tires blow out and flip their car into oncoming traffic. but guess what, these things happen. if you want to risk your skin or potentially your life because you believe random occurances don't happen and you're smart enough to know everything in advanced, by all means, don't wear gear.

if anyone feels this way, let me know when you get hit by a car while not wearing gear... if you can still type. i'd like to hear how you feel about your statements then.

[YORCHI]

Originally Posted by Toly

I don't know all the circumstances, but I cannot agree with being in the wrong place at the wrong time... not at all. That's like resigning your fate to a couple of idiots around you. It appears he failed to anticipate idiotic moves on the cagers' part and prepare accordingly.

You could say it's too much to ask... but it isn't: he clearly saw the cages, they did not fall from the sky, nor they jumped from the brush into the road. Thus, he was aware of them - from awareness should come anticipation, and preparedness - by always leaving yourself a way out, and being spring-loaded to execute the avoidance maneuver at any moment.

What would of been the avoidance maneuver? Maybe he should have been in the right third of his lane so he had more space to maneuver or should he have sped up and been ahead of the cars instead of somewhere between them? Maybe he should have just pulled as far to the right wall as he could?

I'm asking cause I'm not experienced myself and I'd like to know what more experienced riders would do to prevent being in this situation. I have an intersection around where I live where cars are notorious for hopping lanes at the last possible second without turn signals so they can either make it to the freeway on ramp or get out of the way of the freeway on ramp. I hate that intersection and I always drive through it more carefully than others because I'm expecting an idiot to change langes instantly without any signals.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by YORCHI

What would of been the avoidance maneuver? Maybe he should have been in the right third of his lane so he had more space to maneuver or should he have sped up and been ahead of the cars instead of somewhere between them? Maybe he should have just pulled as far to the right wall as he could?

i was in right third of the lane when struck, no more room due to a curb + wall. and she was slightly ahead of me... there was no way the 250 or even my 600 could have accelerated quick enough to get out of the way in time with how quickly she jumped ovre. honestly, although this sounds kinda ly, since that accident, after checking for runners (which i have encountered several times since then and managed to avoid + probably save the person behind me from getting hit), i speed away quickly from intersections to insure i'm ahead of everyone... can't be cut off if there's noone around to cut you off.

but i would like to know the "proper" avoidance maneuver. aside from maybe get better at braking

["A"]

Originally Posted by sombo

So it was a misunderstanding than? Perhaps both parties here can apologize and (virtually) shake hands?

I'd say Alex.S is just being himself, delusional of what actually happened in his own accident, but subconsciously wants to come clean about his own action that cause him to go down.

If a person cut into my lane or suddenly turn in front of me without signal nor pre-warning, I'd hit them square on, if there is a wall on the other side of me. Walls don't move, don't follow traffic laws, . Put the fault at the inconsiderate driver, not my own action that cause me to go down. If the driver happens to drive a Lexus or Mercedes, I'd like to be set for life and not have to work for a living.

Come to think of it, I easily out corner most if not all cars from a stoplight, especially with my Ninja 250 because it is lightweight. Never would I have been waiting for cars to turn ahead of me from a stoplight. I'd pass on the outside even before the first car had a chance to slow down.

In Alex.S words:

Originally Posted by alex.s

was on the 250 so there was no way of escaping with gas. even if i was on my 600 i doubt there would have been time. she hit me on the side

Seems to me he took too long to get going from the light, got himself trapped in a bad situation... another word, he may not have been paying enough attention to the traffic light turning green.

Without a police report detailing the location of the impact on both vehicles involved, relation to the traffic signals and multiple sources or accounts.. we can only assume what happened from his words.

Originally Posted by sombo

I guess it comes from me being a critical thinking and an electronic technician used to having to troubleshoot stuff that causes me to pick up on details others might miss. I'm glad we could figure out how this started between you two, now I hope we can all come to some form of understanding and not let heated emotions get in the way of friendship on a very nice community forum?

Using critical think I came up with the above. I'm surprised that you didn't pick them up in the first place.

Debate did not start between the two of us, I was merely observing and wondering about some of the same questions that Alex.S seems to be avoiding from "A" in regard to the accident.

Riding cautiously, getting yourself out of trouble to avoiding accidents all together is more important than any gear you can put on yourself to protect you from injuries.

Fully geared-up rider doesn't necessarily project responsible rider to most people.. most of the time I consider them riders who think themselves as know-it-alls and want ride more aggressively than really need to.

[YORCHI]

Originally Posted by alex.s

i was in right third of the lane when struck, no more room due to a curb + wall. and she was slightly ahead of me... there was no way the 250 or even my 600 could have accelerated quick enough to get out of the way in time with how quickly she jumped ovre. honestly, although this sounds kinda ly, since that accident, after checking for runners (which i have encountered several times since then and managed to avoid + probably save the person behind me from getting hit), i speed away quickly from intersections to insure i'm ahead of everyone... can't be cut off if there's noone around to cut you off.

but i would like to know the "proper" avoidance maneuver. aside from maybe get better at braking

that's what I used to do in my Mustang...people always thought I was trying to race off the line or show off but it was just to get ahead of the traffic and avoid having idiots cut me off when they realize at the last second that they should be in the far right lane instead of the far left lane.

Would it be wrong to just walk your bike across the intersections like a regular bicycle? lol

[sombo]

Originally Posted by N Ja

I'd say Alex.S is just being himself, delusional of what actually happened in his own accident, but subconsciously wants to come clean about his own action that cause him to go down.

Nothing delusional in what he wrote. What exactly would you like him to come clean about? Were you there to witness it? If not then how can you say he is being delusional or lying? You are merely assuming you know better and acting like you are a better rider than he is by claiming you could have avoided it easily like it was nothing. You act like we as motorcyclists should have precognition to just KNOW what every cager on the road is going to do before they do it. Good luck with that, let me know from the hospital how that mentality turns out.

Originally Posted by N Ja

If a person cut into my lane or suddenly turn in front of me without signal nor pre-warning, I'd hit them square on, if there is a wall on the other side of me. Walls don't move, don't follow traffic laws, . Put the fault at the inconsiderate driver, not my own action that cause me to go down. If the driver happens to drive a Lexus or Mercedes, I'd like to be set for life and not have to work for a living.

So you are admitting that you would have been in worse shape? Or is this just sarcasm?

Originally Posted by N Ja

Come to think of it, I easily out corner most if not all cars from a stoplight, especially with my Ninja 250 because it is lightweight. Never would I have been waiting for cars to turn ahead of me from a stoplight. I'd pass on the outside even before the first car had a chance to slow down.

Can't get much slower then starting from a stop. Some people at lights (both straight and turns) just like to floor it from the second it goes green.

Originally Posted by N Ja

Seems to me he took too long to get going from the light, got himself trapped in a bad situation... another word, he may not have been paying enough attention to the traffic light turning green.

So in your opinion, if you are on a bike and you don't take off like a bat out of hell the instant it goes green, you are not paying attention/taking too long? Seems a very arrogant and somewhat ignorant stance. Not everyone is trying to race from light to light.

Originally Posted by N Ja

Riding cautiously, getting yourself out of trouble to avoiding accidents all together is more important than any gear you can put on yourself to protect you from injuries.

Not once was it said that riding cautiously and intelligently was less important than gear. That's just your assumption from all that has been said about it's better to be ATGATT no matter the ride. You can only control what you do, but not what anyone else on the road does. Considering the fact that it's been proven that 75% of motorcycle fatalities come from cars/trucks impacting bikes wouldn't it be the cautious and intelligent thing to just be prudent and wear all you gear on every ride? I think so, I know that if left to myself I won't go down. But add in all the crazy drivers out there you just never know what can happen and when. You can't predict every move of every driver. To think otherwise is suicidal.

Originally Posted by N Ja

Fully geared-up rider doesn't necessarily project responsible rider to most people.. most of the time I consider them riders who think themselves as know-it-alls and want ride more aggressively than really need to.

So you first claim that alex.s is riding too timidly (not taking off fast enough, not paying attention) then you do a 180 and say that you view those in ATGATT as overly aggressive drivers? So which is it? Wear your gear and be an aggressive driver or not wear you gear and be a squid? Are you saying that you are a better rider because you DON'T wear ATGATT? You aren't making much sense here.

[Honko]

Originally Posted by sombo

So you first claim that alex.s is riding too timidly (not taking off fast enough, not paying attention) then you do a 180 and say that you view those in ATGATT as overly aggressive drivers? So which is it? Wear your gear and be an aggressive driver or not wear you gear and be a squid? Are you saying that you are a better rider because you DON'T wear ATGATT? You aren't making much sense here.

I think this could be said for pretty much all of his posts.

[GeorgiaHooligan]

ouch. Hope you have a speedy recovery Uj

[CmichRider]

Hey guys, how about taking the "debate" to private messages instead of cluttering up the topic for the OP, I mean, it would be horrible to have a 2 page argument right in the middle of his topic.

Oh...wait..

[Toly]

Originally Posted by alex.s

i was in right third of the lane when struck, no more room due to a curb + wall. and she was slightly ahead of me... there was no way the 250 or even my 600 could have accelerated quick enough to get out of the way in time with how quickly she jumped ovre. honestly, although this sounds kinda ly, since that accident, after checking for runners (which i have encountered several times since then and managed to avoid + probably save the person behind me from getting hit), i speed away quickly from intersections to insure i'm ahead of everyone... can't be cut off if there's noone around to cut you off.

but i would like to know the "proper" avoidance maneuver. aside from maybe get better at braking

Hard to say, but as I understand, at the light Alex was parallel to the first cager, with the second cager behind in the left lane. The safest option appears to accelerate ahead of the first cager right off the light, leaving them behind. Given that the first and second cager took off real fast off the light, I would re-evaluate the situation, move over to the right of my lane and cover the front brake lever, as speeding up didn't work and swerving was not an option due to lack of space. Thus, leaving some buffer on the side (just like he did) and being spring-loaded to brake appear most logical.

Of course this is with the benefit of hindsight being 20/20

["A"]

Originally Posted by sombo

Nothing delusional in what he wrote. What exactly would you like him to come clean about? Were you there to witness it? If not then how can you say he is being delusional or lying? You are merely assuming you know better and acting like you are a better rider than he is by claiming you could have avoided it easily like it was nothing. You act like we as motorcyclists should have precognition to just KNOW what every cager on the road is going to do before they do it. Good luck with that, let me know from the hospital how that mentality turns out.

Human memory is highly suggestible and biased, what he wrote about his accident is missing many details that allow people to speculate and assume at their liberty. For me memory serves as poor evidence of what actually occurred, delusion is just someone think their memory is 100% accurate when in actuality can not provide evidence for facts.

Without a police report that clearly provide the details such as where the impact occur in the intersection, where the impact occur on both vehicle (i.e. passenger side door vs clutch side handlebar), when the impact occur in relation to the traffic signals, etc.. all I can do is to use critical thinking as you mentioned, assume the possibilities what occurred prior to impact.

Yes, motorcyclists should have precognition if they want to survive on public streets with crazy drivers.
If they don't, they better have lot of exposure to crazy drivers to be able to predict the outcomes of their own actions when crazy things occur..* if not, they are likely to end up as statistics.

Originally Posted by sombo

So you are admitting that you would have been in worse shape? Or is this just sarcasm?

Did he mention what shape he ended up after the accident, how would you go about comparing shape?

Originally Posted by sombo

Can't get much slower then starting from a stop. Some people at lights (both straight and turns) just like to floor it from the second it goes green.

Be reasonable, no one is indicating that vehicles are accelerating out of control from a stop.
I know I am capable of out accelerate (not like an maniac) most, if not all automobiles from a stop with my Ninja 250, specially turning from a stop. That's just something I do regularly to get myself out of the way of traffic, allow more room between myself and other vehicles traveling in the same direction. Motorcycles are nimble in comparison to cars, that's what most motorcyclist should do to maximize cushion to avoid accidents.

Originally Posted by sombo

So in your opinion, if you are on a bike and you don't take off like a bat out of hell the instant it goes green, you are not paying attention/taking too long? Seems a very arrogant and somewhat ignorant stance. Not everyone is trying to race from light to light.

Not my opinon, just a possibility to what could have actually happened during his accident.

Originally Posted by sombo

Not once was it said that riding cautiously and intelligently was less important than gear. That's just your assumption from all that has been said about it's better to be ATGATT no matter the ride. You can only control what you do, but not what anyone else on the road does. Considering the fact that it's been proven that 75% of motorcycle fatalities come from cars/trucks impacting bikes wouldn't it be the cautious and intelligent thing to just be prudent and wear all you gear on every ride? I think so, I know that if left to myself I won't go down. But add in all the crazy drivers out there you just never know what can happen and when. You can't predict every move of every driver. To think otherwise is suicidal.

Not once did I say that gears are not important, but just not as effective as riding cautiously and able to control your ride at ll time to avoid accidents.

Where are you getting your statistics from? can you provide a source? is that global stats or just local where you live?

I think everyone should be allowed to decide what gear they want to wear when they ride. If they don't survive, statistics they become.. not a big deal.

Maybe I am suicidal, I know when some Lexus or Mercedes cut into my lane, I'm aiming to hit a payday.

Originally Posted by sombo

So you first claim that alex.s is riding too timidly (not taking off fast enough, not paying attention) then you do a 180 and say that you view those in ATGATT as overly aggressive drivers? So which is it? Wear your gear and be an aggressive driver or not wear you gear and be a squid? Are you saying that you are a better rider because you DON'T wear ATGATT? You aren't making much sense here.

There is a huge difference between overly aggressively riding like dragging knees in every corner and starting from a stop to get away from slower moving traffic to avoid accidents, wouldn't you agree?

Does not wearing your gear automatically categorize a rider to be a squid?

I'm saying that better rider would have avoided getting into situations as Alex's did in his accident.

Originally Posted by Honko

I think this could be said for pretty much all of his posts.

Not much more can be said about your posts neither.. unless you've got something to contribute to the topic.. STFU.

[Azhyen]

Originally Posted by CmichRider

Hey guys, how about taking the "debate" to private messages instead of cluttering up the topic for the OP.

+1.

Learn to recognize when you're no longer casually posting ON-TOPIC and crossed over into a debate. Keep it between you and your opponent via PM.

Again, get well OP. hope you learned your lesson. You definitely left a positive impression on me and my riding habits.

[sombo]

Originally Posted by N Ja

Yes, motorcyclists should have precognition if they want to survive on public streets with crazy drivers.
If they don't, they better have lot of exposure to crazy drivers to be able to predict the outcomes of their own actions when crazy things occur..* if not, they are likely to end up as statistics.

If you truly believe that motorcyclists should have precognition, then no one should be riding a motorcycle. Precognition is not something that is considered normal, trainable, and by most of the world not even exist. The best any of us normal people can hope for is to train in spotting possible erratic behavior and hope we can spot those traits in time to be able to react to them. Unfortunately you will not be able to do so for 100% of all cases.

Originally Posted by N Ja

Did he mention what shape he ended up after the accident, how would you go about comparing shape?

He described how he was hit on the side by the side of her car. That's more of a glancing blow that was hard enough to do damage. You said you would hit them square on. This would result much more significant damage and could result in far greater injuries. In accidents you usually want to aim for the least amount of sudden impact in order to lesson damage to you and others.

Originally Posted by N Ja

Be reasonable, no one is indicating that vehicles are accelerating out of control from a stop.
I know I am capable of out accelerate (not like an maniac) most, if not all automobiles from a stop with my Ninja 250, specially turning from a stop. That's just something I do regularly to get myself out of the way of traffic, allow more room between myself and other vehicles traveling in the same direction. Motorcycles are nimble in comparison to cars, that's what most motorcyclist should do to maximize cushion to avoid accidents.

Most is not all and not 100%. There can and will be times that unless you are WOT you will be beat by someone off the line. You are also not taking into account that they had the inside lane, which means they had less distance to cover. This allows them get a jump on you if they take off rapidly. When I see someone trying to accelerate hard as if they are racing me I usually back off. It's usually a safer idea to not try and race someone in a cage that is in a hurry. In the end if/when they do something stupid you usually lose.

Originally Posted by N Ja

Not once did I say that gears are not important, but just not as effective as riding cautiously and able to control your ride at all time to avoid accidents.

Where are you getting your statistics from? can you provide a source? is that global stats or just local where you live?

The Hurt report on US nation wide motorcycle accidents.

The point of the debate started with people arguing the idea of ATGATT on every ride. Some come across as having the attitude of "Well I'm such a good, responsible rider, and it's just a short trip, I won't need my gear this time cause I can avoid an accident because of how skilled I am." This attitude is dangerous for we never know what might happen. I know this personally having had a lady hit me a few weeks ago. Nothing could have predicted her actions and nothing I could have done to avoid it other than just not being there at that time and place. Since you have no control over other people's actions, and you own proper safety gear, why would you even take the chance of greater injury to yourself by choosing to not wear your gear every time you ride. That's like choosing to not wear your seat-belt and turn off the airbags because you feel you are in complete control and won't get into an accident on this drive.

Originally Posted by N Ja

There is a huge difference between overly aggressively riding like dragging knees in every corner and starting from a stop to get away from slower moving traffic to avoid accidents, wouldn't you agree?

Not in the way you stated it earlier. You seem to make the assumption in these statements that all cages are going to be slower than you. I know from experience that there are many cars and many drivers that will out accelerate me from a start unless I try to be an overly aggressive WOT rider from every light. Also from experience, I have learned it's not always the smartest thing to just blast off immediately from a light. Had I done this as you suggest there is at least one incident where I would have ended up in the hospital or morgue had I taken your advice. I started to turn left from my light and stopped inches from being t-boned by an idiot running the light. Had I gunned it like you seem to be suggesting, I would have been right in the middle of his lane getting slammed by an old Caprice Classic going at minimum 45mph+. The same tactic can not be used in every situation, to try and do so will only end up in you getting hurt.

Originally Posted by N Ja

I'm saying that better rider would have avoided getting into situations as Alex's did in his accident.

This is truly an arrogant statement. You don't know his level of skills and are making assumptions while at the same time praising your own skills as if to suggest you are a better rider. This sort of mentality will eventually cause you to be overconfident in your "superior" skills and make a mistake that will cause you injury. I find it best to learn from others, be thankful that they made it out alive, and hope that a similar downfall doesn't happen upon me.

With this sort of attitude you make it sound as if you and your "superior" skills might have also avoided my accident a few weeks back. You should never assume you could do better in any accident case. You don't know what can happen, how you will react, how your bike will react, or how those around you will react in any given situation. All you can do is hope that your training and experience are enough for your instincts to pull from in order to escape accidents as they suddenly appear.

[wayanlam]

Originally Posted by N Ja

In response to Wayanlam in Bali, I never said that scooters are slow.. but realistically how often do you get to travel 100 mph on a scooter in daily traffic of Bali?

With the population & traffic density of Bali, do you really need 50 mph to have casualties in traffic accidents (with or without gear)?

that is exactly what i was pointing out... you said that you have seen dozens of scooter accidents without any fatalities, and often they barely hurt at all, even though (i assume) they were not wearing gear.

all i was saying is that i do not believe what you observed is accurate; not saying that you didn't witness what you did, but saying that its as easily to get killed or hurt riding a scooter as it is to ride a motorbike.

again, you dont need to be going 100mph to kill yourself. in some cases you dont even need to be moving at all to die or get hurt on a bike (or a bicycle/on foot, in that case, lol) if someone wipes you out. ive seen accidents where the person was only doing 10~20 MPH, but because his daughter in the back seat was not wearing a helmet, and slammed her head on the road when she came off, she had a seizure and was out right there on the spot....... dont know what happened to her in the end, but its not a nice memory.

(besides the point, but still along the same lines); i would love to see some people who think they are extremely experienced drivers come to a country like Indonesia, or even worse, Laos or Vietnam, and hop on a bike. i can guarantee that you will need quite some time to adjust to the driving habits of the general population here. you need to learn to go with the flow basically. there are no real road regulations, people buy their drivers licenses, they don't do any exams, kids at the age of 10 (without licenses) hop on their parents scooters and bum around on the main roads. it all adds up to a general chaos, where anything can happen.

this factor of random unpredictable occurrences, which can and will always happen anywhere in the world (but more so here, lol) can easily take out even the most experienced riders. sometimes there is just no way out.

So, i believe that what is being said here (repetitively it seems) is that BY wearing gear, if you get into a predicament where EVEN if you are an extremely good/confident/experienced rider, that would cause you to have an accident, your chances of making it through alive, or less hurt, is greatly improved.

i really dont think that there is a correlation between riding skill and wearing gear... i mean a obviously a newbee rider should definitely wear gear, since they are more likely to make a mistake that could lead to an accident, but even when you are a biker God... anything can still happen, which is when you are really grateful that you had the gear on, or regret that you didn't, which probably happens more often .

to tell others that you would not have had an accident had you been in their shoes, or had they been better riders, is rather arrogant.

there are so many factors, predictable or not, in each accident, that its impossible to predict the outcome with any changes. people could always say "had he/she/I left the house 10 seconds later/earlier, then i would not have been hit by the car", but thats not the case, we left when we did, we drove the speed that we did, and had the accident the way it happened.

obviously if you drive like a lunatic, and take unnecessary risks (wheelies, stoppies, burnouts, knee dragging, etc etc.) like oh so many entertaining but painful youtube videos. well obviously its (almost) all down to the driver, and their skill level that predicts the outcome whether or not they pull off a sick bike stunt, or if they eat s#!t. in that case, people can brag and boast all they want, and say that they can do it better, since it really is down to the skill. in which case; take the camcorder to the nearest empty parking lot, showoff, and upload it onto Youtube

but road accidents involving multiple people/factors/road conditions, etc. you cant realistically predict the outcome had you been in their place. unless it was something stupid like "uh... forgot how to turn!"

this debate has been quite entertaining to read, but it seems like ppl are getting carried away, and not accepting the fact that accidents can happen because they are in fact "accidents".

but whatever, we all have the right to believe in what we want to, i personally try to be humble. i have been in so many accidents (both predictable, and unpredictable) that i have learnt from them in my own way.

["A"]

Originally Posted by sombo

If you truly believe that motorcyclists should have precognition, then no one should be riding a motorcycle. Precognition is not something that is considered normal, trainable, and by most of the world not even exist. The best any of us normal people can hope for is to train in spotting possible erratic behavior and hope we can spot those traits in time to be able to react to them. Unfortunately you will not be able to do so for 100% of all cases.

I said should, I didn't say that it would ever exist that way.. that's why people become statistics.

Originally Posted by sombo

He described how he was hit on the side by the side of her car. That's more of a glancing blow that was hard enough to do damage. You said you would hit them square on. This would result much more significant damage and could result in far greater injuries. In accidents you usually want to aim for the least amount of sudden impact in order to lesson damage to you and others.

If I weigh 120 lb. and he weighs 200 lb. so that I can slow down quicker prior to impact, would there be a difference?
I were I to be able to slow down significantly since I'm not turning my handlebar and loose control prior to impact,would that made a difference?
I know my capabilities when controlling my vehicles, do you?

Originally Posted by sombo

Most is not all and not 100%. There can and will be times that unless you are WOT you will be beat by someone off the line. You are also not taking into account that they had the inside lane, which means they had less distance to cover. This allows them get a jump on you if they take off rapidly. When I see someone trying to accelerate hard as if they are racing me I usually back off. It's usually a safer idea to not try and race someone in a cage that is in a hurry. In the end if/when they do something stupid you usually lose.

I don't need to ride WOT to pass a car from stop.. do you?

Originally Posted by sombo

The Hurt report on US nation wide motorcycle accidents.

Thanks for the source, but where in that report is your stats from?
Are they stats within US only?
If so, hardly a reflection of motorcycle community worldwide.

Originally Posted by sombo

The point of the debate started with people arguing the idea of ATGATT on every ride. Some come across as having the attitude of "Well I'm such a good, responsible rider, and it's just a short trip, I won't need my gear this time cause I can avoid an accident because of how skilled I am." This attitude is dangerous for we never know what might happen. I know this personally having had a lady hit me a few weeks ago. Nothing could have predicted her actions and nothing I could have done to avoid it other than just not being there at that time and place. Since you have no control over other people's actions, and you own proper safety gear, why would you even take the chance of greater injury to yourself by choosing to not wear your gear every time you ride. That's like choosing to not wear your seat-belt and turn off the airbags because you feel you are in complete control and won't get into an accident on this drive.

Sorry for your crash, but without details of your crash I can not determine whether or not you could have avoided your accident.
Besides, none of my cars have airbags. Never have I gotten into an accident over 800,000 miles of driving that I have deployed any airbags.

Originally Posted by sombo

Not in the way you stated it earlier. You seem to make the assumption in these statements that all cages are going to be slower than you. I know from experience that there are many cars and many drivers that will out accelerate me from a start unless I try to be an overly aggressive WOT rider from every light. Also from experience, I have learned it's not always the smartest thing to just blast off immediately from a light. Had I done this as you suggest there is at least one incident where I would have ended up in the hospital or morgue had I taken your advice. I started to turn left from my light and stopped inches from being t-boned by an idiot running the light. Had I gunned it like you seem to be suggesting, I would have been right in the middle of his lane getting slammed by an old Caprice Classic going at minimum 45mph+. The same tactic can not be used in every situation, to try and do so will only end up in you getting hurt.

I did not make assumptions about all cars, I said most if not all. You are not reading carefully.

From a stop, I know most motorcycles, even a Ninja 250 are faster off the line without much effort.

If what you learned from your experience works for you, great.. don't assume the same thing should work for everybody else.

Originally Posted by sombo

This is truly an arrogant statement. You don't know his level of skills and are making assumptions while at the same time praising your own skills as if to suggest you are a better rider. This sort of mentality will eventually cause you to be overconfident in your "superior" skills and make a mistake that will cause you injury. I find it best to learn from others, be thankful that they made it out alive, and hope that a similar downfall doesn't happen upon me.
With this sort of attitude you make it sound as if you and your "superior" skills might have also avoided my accident a few weeks back. You should never assume you could do better in any accident case. You don't know what can happen, how you will react, how your bike will react, or how those around you will react in any given situation. All you can do is hope that your training and experience are enough for your instincts to pull from in order to escape accidents as they suddenly appear.

That's how I was taught being in the service, I am prepared at all time. I learn how to react quicker than most people, to control my every move for maximum survivability in case of vehicle accident or combat.
I've survives three wars, 32 months of combat overseas, lost 16 brothers, taken 18 bullets throughout my body for this country.

Do you consider me arrogant or just well trained and experienced?
If you don't mind, edit your post and take out the 'arrogant' assumptions about me.

If you want to discuss further, PM me about your miserable mishaps on motorcycles and I will use my critical thinking and let you know what you can learn from them.

[ally99]

[rockNroll]

Only thing worse than a forum argument is one with really really long, multiple quotes and posts.



well, Ok.... there are actually more things worse than a forum argument

[sombo]

Not gonna do the multiple quote thing again.

N Ja, you are the king of assumptions, so trying to use that argument against others is just stupid and wrong. You ASSUME he lost control of his bike when he never said he did. You ASSUME you could have avoided it due to your superior skill (an extremely arrogant statement btw). You ASSUME that your tactic of taking off rapidly from the start is better (that's how you make your statements sound regardless of how you mean them). You stated you would hit them square on, and are now back peddling saying you could slow down faster? Make sense here and stop changing your story.

I do consider you arrogant and will not edit my posts to appease you. Military training does not mean you are better motorcycle rider, I too have military training and experience but I also know there are MANY motorcyclists that are light years better than me. Why is that? Because they have more experience and training in riding motorcycles, something that isn't taught in the military. Sure the military helps you become better with your reaction timing and the ability to spot trouble. That does not mean you are an expert motorcyclist.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=75713

Please enlighten me on what you think I could learn from this other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

["A"]

Originally Posted by sombo

Not gonna do the multiple quote thing again.

Why not, it clearly shows what another person typed before.
Do whatever you want, this is a discussion.. stand your ground and make your thoughts understood whatever way, but don't sway just because someone else not contributing to the discussion dislikes the way the discussion looks on a forum.

Originally Posted by sombo

N Ja, you are the king of assumptions, so trying to use that argument against others is just stupid and wrong. You ASSUME he lost control of his bike when he never said he did. You ASSUME you could have avoided it due to your superior skill (an extremely arrogant statement btw). You ASSUME that your tactic of taking off rapidly from the start is better (that's how you make your statements sound regardless of how you mean them). You stated you would hit them square on, and are now back peddling saying you could slow down faster? Make sense here and stop changing your story.

In his own words:

Originally Posted by alex.s

i tried to steer to the right and hit the brakes at the same time, but couldn't get the bike out of the way in time.

Looks to me that he did not react in time, neither did he perform the correct maneuver.
I read it just as he typed it.
Like I said before, without a detailed police report, we are all left to make our own assumptions.
Just like your assuming one possibility that it might have happened, I assume another.
Arrogant or not my visualization is different than most, if that allow me better chance of survival and less accidents occur to me, does that make me better rider?
Simple yes or no answer would do.

Originally Posted by sombo

I do consider you arrogant and will not edit my posts to appease you. Military training does not mean you are better motorcycle rider, I too have military training and experience but I also know there are MANY motorcyclists that are light years better than me. Why is that? Because they have more experience and training in riding motorcycles, something that isn't taught in the military. Sure the military helps you become better with your reaction timing and the ability to spot trouble. That does not mean you are an expert motorcyclist.

I never said military training helped my motorcycling skills specifically, you're taking things out of context.

Originally Posted by sombo

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=75713

Please enlighten me on what you think I could learn from this other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

You failed to observe the environment behind you while stopped at a traffic light.

You could have avoided the impact if you were scanning behind and watching for traffic moving up towards you.

How long were you stopped at the light?

3-4 seconds or more?

Never occurred to you that you should look in the mirror once in a while?

Did you allow safe distance with the car in front of you to maneuver around if you needed to?

Isn't that the reason MSF course teach riders to leave the bike in gear for quick launch if someone is approaching you from behind at a traffic light?

["A"]

King of assumptions? that's someone who uses lots of critical thinking, right?

I don't think N Ja is changing his story, more like seeing other possibilities of different outcomes when someone reacts differently to an accident.. a good lawyer can talk his way out of any conviction, right?

BTW, going down on a bike is loosing control of it..

[sombo]

Originally Posted by N Ja

You failed to observe the environment behind you while stopped at a traffic light.

You could have avoided the impact if you were scanning behind and watching for traffic moving up towards you.

How long were you stopped at the light?

3-4 seconds or more?

Never occurred to you that you should look in the mirror once in a while?

Did you allow safe distance with the car in front of you to maneuver around if you needed to?

So if we are standing in line waiting for it to move and I cheap shot you in the back, you would be able to avoid it?

I guarantee you would have been hit the same as me. You can speculate all you want and think so highly of your skills, but in the end it was the other driver not paying attention.

I don't know how many cars behind me because I wasn't sitting there trying to count them.

Apparently you can't read. We were all STOPPED, I knew she was there, I knew she was stopped only a couple feet behind me. I can't control how close she is, only how close I am to the car in front of me. I was towards the right and had room to move around the car in front me. This is why my bike hit the ground instead of hitting another car when I got hit from behind.

In order to have seen her just suddenly jump I would had to have been watching her like a hawk every second WAITING for her to do it. Instead I was observing my entire surroundings. It took her 1 second to go from safely stopped to hitting my bike. Think you can react to what you don't know is coming? If that's the case then how come you got shot? If you're so good at avoidance shouldn't you have seen it coming and not been there?

You truly are an arrogant person aren't you? You think you can avoid anything don't you? You just can't accept the idea that you are not in total control at every second?

Learn to accept the idea that there are things that are out of your control and that accidents can and will happen even if you do everything right.

I'm out, no point continuing to argue with one who is "always right" and in control of everything around him.

And FYI:
losing control = you go down or cause the accident on your own merit with no one else to blame but you
getting hit by an idiot cager is not the same as losing control

[UjaasG35]

lol damn.. how did this thread end up like this?

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by UjaasG35

dont feel sorry, just hope i can save a few ppl from my stupidity lol

How are ya feeling?

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by N Ja

Looks to me that he did not react in time, neither did he perform the correct maneuver.

i'm curious, what would the correct maneuver be? if a car is coming directly at you from the side, you have no more room on the other side to move over, you don't have enough space or power to accelerate out, and aren't able to brake quickly enough to completely avoid the car? btw The average (median) reaction time is 215 milliseconds for humans. a car can quickly change lanes in under half a second. that leaves you with about a quarter second to move your bike to the outside of the lane and stop.

you keep saying you need a police report but i don't understand why this would change anything? the girl who hit me fled. the police only had my statement

[DarkNinja52]

SQUID WARS!!!!!! TONIGHT ON DISCOVERY CHANNEL... or at your local ninjette forum...

[TheJimmyEnglish]

Wows hope you get better. I'm wearing my gear the rest of the season now. I dont care that its super hot now.

[adri99an]

Originally Posted by DarkNinja52

SQUID WARS!!!!!! TONIGHT ON DISCOVERY CHANNEL... or at your local ninjette forum...

LOL

Here's the score folks...it's been a doozy of a time trying to keep up with these two, but in the end after looking at the judges' score cards....

alex s 14

N Ja 14

We are going to sudden death overtime!!!!

["A"]

Originally Posted by sombo

So if we are standing in line waiting for it to move and I cheap shot you in the back, you would be able to avoid it?

Do you meant the lady the hit you from behind was taking a cheap shot at you?
IMO, she was simply not paying attention to what she was doing. Wouldn't you agree?
Cheap shots would have been running you & your bike over with her car.
*

Originally Posted by sombo

I guarantee you would have been hit the same as me. You can speculate all you want and think so highly of your skills, but in the end it was the other driver not paying attention.

You guarantee? how? Don't make guarantees that you can not perform, that's stupid.

Originally Posted by sombo

I don't know how many cars behind me because I wasn't sitting there trying to count them.

Apparently you can't read. We were all STOPPED, I knew she was there, I knew she was stopped only a couple feet behind me. I can't control how close she is, only how close I am to the car in front of me. I was towards the right and had room to move around the car in front me. This is why my bike hit the ground instead of hitting another car when I got hit from behind.

First you said all traffic has stopped moving, then you say you don't know how many cars were behind you, that indicates you were not paying attention to what's behind you. You were not paying attention therefore you got hit. seems pretty simple to me.

Originally Posted by sombo

In order to have seen her just suddenly jump I would have to have been watching her like a hawk every second WAITING for her to do it. Instead I was observing my entire surroundings. It took her 1 second to go from safely stopped to hitting my bike. Think you can react to what you don't know is coming? If that's the case then how come you got shot? If you're so good at avoidance shouldn't you have seen it coming and not been there?

If you had set yourself in a position to get hit prior to stopping at the light.. then you'd likely get hit.
I always allow plenty of room between myself and the car in front of me, I tap the brake lever to flash my tail/brake light before and when I'm at stop, to attract attention from the vehicle behind me so they know I'm in front of them.
I constantly scan my 360 for possible threats. Since most accidents occur at the intersection, I pay special attention not a moment that goes by I don't look for my way out of trouble.*

You are out of context to compare combat situation vs riding motorcycle on public roads, each shot taken at me were meant to kill me, all of them failed.
I did not ask you what you would have done in my place, you have no idea what combat situation I was in, because I did not describe any of it in my posts, do not assume anything about my combat experiences.

Originally Posted by sombo

You truly are an arrogant person aren't you? You think you can avoid anything don't you? You just can't accept the idea that you are not in total control at every second?

I never said that I can avoid anything. You are putting words in my mouth that I never said.
You asked what you should have done if I were in your situation and I told you.

Originally Posted by sombo

Learn to accept the idea that there are things that are out of your control and that accidents can and will happen even if you do everything right.

If you do everything right and accidents still happen to you, then you're SOL.

Originally Posted by sombo

I'm out, no point continuing to argue with one who acts like he is god.

Give up so easily? no wonder why you fail to see correlation between your military training and motorcycle riding skills.

Originally Posted by sombo

And FYI:
losing control = you go down on your own merit with no one else to blame but you
getting hit by an idiot cager is not the same as losing control

Going down on a bike is loosing control, regardless the cause.. if you regain control without going down, that's still loosing control.

Originally Posted by alex.s

i'm curious, what would the correct maneuver be? if a car is coming directly at you from the side, you have no more room on the other side to move over, you don't have enough space or power to accelerate out, and aren't able to brake quickly enough to completely avoid the car? btw The average (median) reaction time is 215 milliseconds for humans. a car can quickly change lanes in under half a second. that leaves you with about a quarter second to move your bike to the outside of the lane and stop.

IMO, correct maneuver would have been getting around both cars as soon as as the light turned green, not to be casual about it as you said you did.
Motorcycles are much more nimble than cars, to get around cars from a dead stop at traffic light is not a difficult task, if you were paying attention to the lights turning. Predicting the green light can often save you precious milliseconds that allow you to get away from stopped traffic at lights.*
I don't believe for one bit that Ninja 250 can not out accelerate a car from a dead stop. If you claim that you are not capable of doing so, then that's your lack of riding skill, not the bike lacking ability to accelerate.*

Again, where do you get your numbers from about the human reaction time? provide a source, and explain how it might relate to your case.

How long did it take for you to react to the light turning green? Were you slow to react to the light turning green?
How much time between you start to move and the car overtaking your lane?
How much distance between you and the car prior to the impact?
How fast were you traveling just prior to impact?

Originally Posted by alex.s

you keep saying you need a police report but i don't understand why this would change anything? the girl who hit me fled. the police only had my statement

From what you're saying the police report may be biased and inaccurate?
Maybe there could have been some ways that you could have stopped the car from getting away if you had hit them differently?

[ally99]

Sigh.

["A"]

Originally Posted by ally99

Originally Posted by ally99

Sigh.

What do posts these contribute to the discussion?
Are you 'above it all' and all the discussion seems pointless to you?


This is a discussion forum, let people present their thoughts and not be criticized by non-contributors.
If you have something to say about particular post, go ahead and express your thoughts in a decent manner.

[EsrTek]

Originally Posted by "A"

What do posts these contribute to the discussion?
Are you 'above it all' and all the discussion seems pointless to you?


This is a discussion forum, let people present their thoughts and not be criticized by non-contributors.
If you have something to say about particular post, go ahead and express your thoughts in a decent manner.

Don't start goin off on ally, she didn't do **** wrong...
Maybe...She is merely posting those as her way of saying, get your own f*cking thread stop hijacking the OP's thread!!

This whole 3 pages is complete BS, people are quoting entire paragraphs of text then picking out 1 whole ****in word from that to criticize and get some hollier than thou attitudes. Stating you should've done this that and I would've done this and that, therefore I'm better than you....
That is entirely all I/we see from this bullshit, and I know I DON'T GIVE A FLYIN F*CK!!!!! ....
I for sure am not taking any helpful advice for your 3 pages of WHINE!!!

Would you please STFU now?????

[Honko]

Originally Posted by ally99

Sigh.

Originally Posted by EsrTek

Don't start goin off on ally, she didn't do **** wrong...
Maybe...She is merely posting those as her way of saying, get your own f*cking thread stop hijacking the OP's thread!!

This whole 3 pages is complete BS, people are quoting entire paragraphs of text then picking out 1 whole ****in word from that to criticize and get some hollier than thou attitudes. Stating you should've done this that and I would've done this and that, therefore I'm better than you....
That is entirely all I/we see from this bullshit, and I know I DON'T GIVE A FLYIN F*CK!!!!! ....
I for sure am not taking any helpful advice for your 3 pages of WHINE!!!

Would you please STFU now?????

This is why I stopped reading this thread haha.

Edit: and I don't mean because of responses like yours. I mean because of the beating a dead horse/hijacking that is going on in this thread.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by N Ja

IMO, correct maneuver would have been getting around both cars as soon as as the light turned green, not to be casual about it as you said you did.

i don't disagree with this however you still didn't answer my question. there will be times when cars are next to you. if you don't think so then you've never been in california.

answers inline in bold:

Originally Posted by N Ja

How long did it take for you to react to the light turning green? Were you slow to react to the light turning green? no, i left the line at the same time they did, but like i said the cars to my left seemed like they were racing eachother or something
How much time between you start to move and the car overtaking your lane? like i said, if you actually read what i say, we were completing the turn, basically crossing the cross-walk after the turn in the intersection... maybe 2-3 second from the time i left the line to the time i got hit?
How much distance between you and the car prior to the impact? a lane of seperation... maybe 6 feet to my left? there was traffic behind both of us
How fast were you traveling just prior to impact? about 25. i probably managed to slow down to 15? before getting hit. just estimates, i obviously wasn't looking at the speedo

From what you're saying the police report may be biased and inaccurate?
Maybe there could have been some ways that you could have stopped the car from getting away if you had hit them differently?

all i can present was my perspective of the incident. maybe she would say a child jumped out of the street in front of her? who knows what she *would* have said. the point is that she fled so noone could get "her side". why would i lie about getting hit by a car? that's not something to brag about. and yes... i'm sure if i impaled myself in her side window she wouldn't have fled... maybe. is that what you would do? i prefer less damage to myself and my bike rather than knowing who hit me.

we're getting off point. and i think after this i'm giving up on trying to tell others what this point is... i'll try to make it as clear as possible though:

there is always a chance that a freak, uncontrollable accident will happen that is out of your control. you may be able to do many many things to reduce those chances and avoid them for a long time, but there is always a chance you don't catch everything. maybe this wasn't the perfect example. i'm not saying noone could have avoided my accident. what i am saying is that if there is a chance you might be involved in an accident (which is anytime you're riding on the street with other cars, in your own flow of traffic, or an opposing flow), why not try to prevent some potential injuries by wearing a damn helmet?

answer me this question: have you ever ridden on an open highway (no center-divide) where there is an opposing flow of traffic? have you ever ridden through a blind intersection? if you've ridden much at all the answer most likely is yes. if the answer is yes, what would you do if for example a drunk ran through that blind intersection at 85mph? nothing. because at that speed there isn't enough time to humanly react. what would you do if a car driving opposite blew out a tire, or was simply being a dick, and swerved, flipping his car, taking up the road with a moving block. "swerve away"? what if there's a wall on the right and more traffic on the left? i'm sure you'll come up with some clever scenario to escape, completely avoiding my point so i'll ask it directly:

why would you put yourself at risk of more serious injury by not wearing gear?

even if you never use it, why would you risk more potential injury by not wearing gear?

is it that you think it'll never happen to you? is it because freak accidents don't happen "to you"? i'm truly sorry you've never seen a freak accident caused by something simple like a blowout or a drunk running a blind red light. it's unfortunate that it happens, but it does. to deny that is, well, denial.

[sombo]

Alex.s there is no point arguing with a forum troll who I am starting to doubt rides a bike or was ever in the military. He is just too cocky and stupid to listen to anyone other than his own greatness. Just put him on ignore and let him think he is god. I will not be responding to his BS that he made up about my accident. I know for a fact there was nothing one could do to avoid it other than just not being the next person in front of her. If not me and my bike it would have been whatever car was there.

Just let it go and leave him to his greatness, eventually it will catch up with him and pop that massive ego he has.

["A"]

Originally Posted by EsrTek

Don't start goin off on ally, she didn't do **** wrong...
Maybe...She is merely posting those as her way of saying, get your own f*cking thread stop hijacking the OP's thread!!

This whole 3 pages is complete BS, people are quoting entire paragraphs of text then picking out 1 whole ****in word from that to criticize and get some hollier than thou attitudes. Stating you should've done this that and I would've done this and that, therefore I'm better than you....
That is entirely all I/we see from this bullshit, and I know I DON'T GIVE A FLYIN F*CK!!!!! ....
I for sure am not taking any helpful advice for your 3 pages of WHINE!!!

Would you please STFU now?????

Originally Posted by Honko

This is why I stopped reading this thread haha.

Edit: and I don't mean because of responses like yours. I mean because of the beating a dead horse/hijacking that is going on in this thread.

This is a forum, discussions should be encouraged.

What OP posted was that he wasn't wearing enough gear and riding beyond his capability, combination of both got him into an accident.

Incidents with Alex.S and Smobo maybe be more or less fortunate, but what can we learn from all of them?

I can agree with N Ja that riding cautiously and being aware of your surroundings would definitely improve the chance of not getting into accidents, but ATGATT may not be as effective if you're not paying attention to your surroundings.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by EsrTek

Don't start goin off on ally, she didn't do **** wrong...
Maybe...She is merely posting those as her way of saying, get your own f*cking thread stop hijacking the OP's thread!!

+1

This. I keep checking back to see if we've gotten back on OP's original topic. You have a point, however. Unlike most who love to fuel fires and keep arguments going, I can bypass annoying threads that have very little or no helpful information to do with the original topic. Thanks for the reminder.

[TnNinjaGirl]

The other day I was riding my Ninja whilst wearing full protective gear. In addition, I didn't lowside, highside or otherwise come in contact with any other object that is destructive to my bike or myself.

:-)

[Alex]