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Old January 22nd, 2015, 08:42 AM   #41
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Was just comparing the timing charts from the one you posted above, they are running some pretty advanced timing at 20% 39* on your map vs 27* on mine.... maybe it needs to be turned down a little? everything at part throttle on my bike seems to be pretty good. I'm just hitting a wall at almost 10k but mine feels like a soft limiter turns on at 9600 and stops at 10k
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Old January 22nd, 2015, 01:46 PM   #42
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I've played with timing only a little, tried from 28 to 35 deg it's currently on about 33 deg no load 8000. Close to stock. In non boost conditions I should be able to run very close to factory timing. I'm trying to keep the egt low by keeping in as much timing as I can I'm a bit time poor at the minute but I'll try and put a pressure gauge in place of the egt thi weekend, soon tell us if the turbine is too small.
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Old January 23rd, 2015, 02:47 AM   #43
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OK, put a pressure gauge between the head and the turbo, I'm a little surprised at the result, I still cant operate through a large range but NO pressure in the exhaust manifold. I even took the gauge back out and tested it again. At up to 6000 rpm and 9 psi there is no pressure. strange! I tested my fuel pressure while I was at it and its 400 kpa, should be ok for now. removed air cleaner and pipe just uncase it was restricting and causing surge, re-mapped crazy rich but still intake flutter and like pulling a brake on over 6000 rpm. Could it be that the turbo is too small and the compressor side is maxed out and in the surge area and because it happens at part throttle this is happening before any exhaust pressure can build up (due to low throttle opening). I wonder if I could open the throttle if I would see a massive exhaust pressure.
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Old January 23rd, 2015, 08:02 AM   #44
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OK, put a pressure gauge between the head and the turbo, I'm a little surprised at the result, I still cant operate through a large range but NO pressure in the exhaust manifold. I even took the gauge back out and tested it again. At up to 6000 rpm and 9 psi there is no pressure. strange! I tested my fuel pressure while I was at it and its 400 kpa, should be ok for now. removed air cleaner and pipe just uncase it was restricting and causing surge, re-mapped crazy rich but still intake flutter and like pulling a brake on over 6000 rpm. Could it be that the turbo is too small and the compressor side is maxed out and in the surge area and because it happens at part throttle this is happening before any exhaust pressure can build up (due to low throttle opening). I wonder if I could open the throttle if I would see a massive exhaust pressure.
That is weird! I know my bike is fine cruising even with small boost pressures, like 2-4psi no problem.

that 400kpa fuel pressure (58psi) do you have that set on a 1:1 regulator or is that a solid 400kpa all the time? I'm running a base pressure of 44psi and running a 1:1 so I'm getting 56psi of fuel pressure with 12psi of boost.

I say give it a quick WOT pull in one gear and see what it does! These motors are very forgiving! I did quite a few pulls with the wastegate disconnected and say 26psi each time and she held up just fine! lol

On a good note with my turbo setup I was comparing the turbo 250 to a stock ninja 300 dyno chart, at 7,000rpm I'm making 17hp and 10ft lbs more than the 300 lol....

Dont give up! Keep up the good work, well sort these things out!

What are you using to data log by the way?
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Old January 23rd, 2015, 08:41 AM   #45
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Plus one on the engine. It can take it. Kust keep the exhaust from going above 14-1500 deg.
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Old January 23rd, 2015, 02:28 PM   #46
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I've got 400 kpa on 10 psi boost, with the rising rate. My ecu will log data but I'm manually doing stuff for now, that is riding with gauges hooked up. I should be waiting until the dyno is built but I was hoping to get a basic 6psi map in it so I could ride it a little. I dig a lot of work last night on turbo maps and it looks like the Garrett gt12 is a much better turbo for over 50hp, almost twice the exhaust flow. The vz should be fine (you've proved it GARTH285) so I think my problem is a simple one just hiding in plain sight. All good. If it was easy everyone would have turbo bikes.
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Old January 23rd, 2015, 06:15 PM   #47
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I have always felt the Garrett was better. But it cost three times what the vz-21 cost. And without the oil system sorted I could not risk that. Fifty hp will go about 122 mph on a stock body ninja. For the street it should be no problem.

Yes this is not easy or cheap. But you guys are doing it. No BS talk. So I give you all the proper respect you deserve.
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Old January 23rd, 2015, 08:16 PM   #48
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Well if the VZ21's dont work out for us, I have seen some cheapo GT-15's for about 200 bucks.

I'm not giving up on the VZ21's though!
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Old January 23rd, 2015, 09:31 PM   #49
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Talking

We have lift off!
Here's the short version. I had a faulty map switch which played havoc with my wide band self tuning setup. So, now its fixed I can push through the flutter and get to some good throttle openings. Yep she hauls. I've limited boost to 9psi while I sort a base map. I believe the flutter is caused by too small a turbine housing, spooling up way too early so part throttle the compressor is pumping too much air and surging. With larger throttle openings its all good because there is a place for that air to go. Solution (if my theory is correct)is to use a part throttle open waste gate which opens during cruise or machine 0.010-0.020 thou from the turbine housing and make it a little less efficient. Street riding it is quicker than it was before using only 5000 to 8000 rpm, top gear pulls between 7000rpm and 10000rpm are better than a non turbo acceleration between 9500 to 13000 in 3rd gear. Lots to sort yet but I'll refine this set up to 9psi then build the new motor with the gt12 turbo. cant get the smile off my face.
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Old January 23rd, 2015, 09:39 PM   #50
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Well if the VZ21's dont work out for us, I have seen some cheapo GT-15's for about 200 bucks.

I'm not giving up on the VZ21's though!
Shawn, Don't give up on the vz21 But...... when you push it, it just wont flow enough for much more than 50hp. I'm buying the gt1241z China made $240 bucks, There is good data on these and they are WAY better suited to this application. http://www.aliexpress.com/item/GT124...749301203.htmlAlmost twice the exhaust flow. Similar flanges and about 10mm longer. A pretty easy change to make.
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Old January 23rd, 2015, 09:46 PM   #51
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I have always felt the Garrett was better. But it cost three times what the vz-21 cost. And without the oil system sorted I could not risk that. Fifty hp will go about 122 mph on a stock body ninja. For the street it should be no problem.

Yes this is not easy or cheap. But you guys are doing it. No BS talk. So I give you all the proper respect you deserve.
Thanks Eric, It's a consuming thing to build something with limited data. But as you would know the personal rewards are enormous.
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Old January 24th, 2015, 09:20 AM   #52
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Yeah when you feel the boost come in its so exciting!

Well I'm right at 50hp now but I know my bike isnt revving out as it should, I have someone testing out my ECU software on a stock bike to see if its running properly or not.

I wish I would have just gone with a power commander so i can tune every 250rpm's but I'll sort it out!

Keep up the good work!

Have any cameras you can strap on the bike for some ride videos?
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Old January 24th, 2015, 10:57 PM   #53
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Small update, I've got a rough 8psi tune in now and I'm pretty happy, a few minor flat spots (caused by the surge acting on the sensors). I don't like the boost at cruise, its just wasting energy and cooking the intake air temp for no good reason, they cruise N/A fine. Rather than change the turbo on this build, I'll mod it for the benefit of others wanting to do this with the vz21. I will Either machine the compressor housing like the big anti surge ones or machine the turbine housing to give the wheel some more clearance (a bit less efficient) . A little more testing will help me decide and I'll table the measurements if it is successful. I'll post some footage soon (computer issues). At 8psi it wont beat a 600 in a straight line, but it will wipe the condescending smirk off there face. No offence to bigger bike riders
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Old January 25th, 2015, 12:20 AM   #54
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so glad theres a few threads on turbos on pregens. nice
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Old January 25th, 2015, 05:54 AM   #55
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Well a bit more testing today, now I can use 100% throttle I thought I'd test the exhaust manifold pressure again. At 11000 rpm and 8 psi I have 5 psi in the exhaust. This is a great number, indicating that at this boost level the turbine housing is very well matched!
So, I decided to do the machining on the compressor side to try and fix my surge problem. Its 11.43pm and I've just removed, machined and re installed it ready for a try tomorrow (weather permitting).
I should say that I'm looking for a fix for my set up. It may not be that the turbo is the sole problem, it could be an issue with a manifold resonance or design or something I haven't considered yet. But, if this cures my problem it may be of some help to others.IMG_4148.jpg
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Old January 25th, 2015, 12:39 PM   #56
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Looking good! I was just running some more tests on my bike, I really think I have an ECU problem.

On another note, the guys over in I think it was indonesia making about 69.1hp are running the same turbo with no issues but theres limited info about their setup.

I'm stuck for now with my bike, I did register it and get a tag so I can run it on the street somewhat legally so well see lol.

I have tried a ton of different things with the ECU maps and nothing has seemed to work, I may go run it one last time but I'm still stuck with a 10,000rpm limiter :-(
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Old January 25th, 2015, 05:55 PM   #57
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Looking good! I was just running some more tests on my bike, I really think I have an ECU problem.

On another note, the guys over in I think it was indonesia making about 69.1hp are running the same turbo with no issues but theres limited info about their setup.
The guys in Indonesia run the megasquirt.
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Old January 26th, 2015, 03:02 AM   #58
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Good news, my surge is 80% gone, the compressor mod went a long way to a fix. No loss in boost or spool either. Found another problem, the power wire to the wideband sensor plug was soldered and heat shrunk.....but with no solder. An intermittent contact causing it to restart frequently during the self tune phase which screwed the data inputs. Only found it because it came out of contact completely and killed the bike.
Have asked Ecotrons about running 1.2 ohm (stick) coils but the information (or lack of it)I got back was extremely poor. I'm not willing to fry an ECU to try it.
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Old February 6th, 2015, 05:08 AM   #59
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Ooops! 58000km of abuse + 12000rpm + 10psi boost + one tiny little knock (detonation) = one broken piston.
It was always going to happen, I was just hoping to get a tune into it first.
My fault, during a software update I put the wrong timing map into it and it was over before I could back off. I tore it down tonight and there is no other damage apart from broken ring lands, bore is perfect. It just started to breath heavy and clearly down on one cylinder. All good, couple of pistons and I'm back in business.
Does anybody know if later pistons will fit? I'd like to just throw in a low k set and save my money for the new engine, the new pistons are a little easyer to find and I really just want to refine the setup before risking a good engine. IMG_4169.jpg
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Old February 6th, 2015, 05:17 AM   #60
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Forged Pistons just don't hold up. Keep going that is what happens when you push the stock rngjne to double power. It works but any inconsistency will do somthing that hurts compresson and then the engine stops running. No drama it just stops.
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Old February 6th, 2015, 07:57 AM   #61
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JE makes Std bore pistons for the eariler 250's, the lowest compression they have is 12:1

http://www.jepistons.com/Catalogs/Po...inja_250r.aspx

Just a thought..... have you looked for any spare motors around you? I can find 08-12 250r engines all day long for $300 bucks..... might be worth it to just buy another motor and try again?

Thats what my plans are unless I decide to let the wastegate go free and boost 26psi lol.

My bike has only been to 10,000 rpm but its help up with probably 10 runs with no wastegate but I also ran it pretty rich (11.0:1 AFR) and also am on E85 with 30* timing I wonder how it will like the upper rpms!!!

I should know today or tomorrow if it winds up I have a bad ECU or not my bike free revving or under load wont go above that 10k, so I have it flashed back to stock and gave it to a buddy who works at a shop to test on another bike for me, fingers crossed his test bike does the same thing!
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Old February 6th, 2015, 08:20 AM   #62
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JE will make custom Pistons in sets of four. The cost is not that bad. Also Wossner will do it and John Noonan know turbos bike better than anyone.
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Old February 7th, 2015, 12:53 AM   #63
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Thanks guys, I have a 700km '09 engine that I'm going to do the race prep to. I just wanted to do the hard yards tuning etc on this old engine. Motors are all around $600 AU here but I found new pistons for 100 bucks the pair and rings for 13 bucks. The plan is to get some decent pistons and bowl them to lower the comp in the new engine. Just waiting for the bits and I'll be back into it
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Old February 7th, 2015, 02:11 AM   #64
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turbo250_1.mp4
Some scraps from early test runs. Nothing special.
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Old February 10th, 2015, 04:01 AM   #65
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I'm still waiting for my pistons so I spent a minute and drew up the head and barrel gaskets in AutoCAD. I made some time at work today, cut and checked them for fit and then made a 2mm thick aluminium base spacer. This should give me 8.35:1IMG_4174.jpg
I did a quick dummy up to make sure the chain was long enough to get the cams back in, it is but only just. Unfortunately I loose my squish band but until I go for a thick crowned piston that I can dish I'll run this way. If I have any head gasket problems I'll cut one from copper now it's drawn up. So running about 8.4:1 can only mean one thing....more boost.
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Old February 10th, 2015, 05:56 AM   #66
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Your such a dick......
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Old February 10th, 2015, 06:15 AM   #67
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....more boost.
Andrew you're on the winning way
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Old February 10th, 2015, 06:21 AM   #68
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Soooo jealous of you and the tools you have!
@swarfman64 - I have always heard when installing a thicker base gasket or head gasket it can throw your cam numbers off, do you have adjustable cam sprockets?

Keep up the great work!
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Old February 10th, 2015, 07:06 AM   #69
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Yes the cam timing will change when you change the thickness of the gaskets. Thinner will retard timing thicker advances it. I think.
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Old February 10th, 2015, 03:07 PM   #70
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Correct, cam timing changes by 3 Deg advanced with a 2mm spacer. (calculated via CAD not physical measurement). So to move it back to Std requires a 1.5mm movement at the cam gear bolt Pcd. However a 3 Deg advance gives stronger/hotter Exh pulse with less wash back and an earlier intake open/close (better boost cramming). At 3 Deg is an acceptable timing change imo, over 4 and you've probably got the wrong cam. Hmmmm I may just leave it and see how it goes, with a 2mm spacer I have no piston contact issues from the timing change either. If I do change it I'll drill the cam gear holes to 10mm and make a series of offset hole reducers, Its dead simple and solid.
Some more cam research before I make a decision
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Old February 10th, 2015, 03:12 PM   #71
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Sounds good to me! How much for a base spacer? lol
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Old February 10th, 2015, 04:47 PM   #72
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Quench

Good luck on the poor quench. You are begging for detonation.
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Old February 10th, 2015, 04:59 PM   #73
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Good luck on the poor quench. You are begging for detonation.
Yep, but pushing 15+ psi into 12.4:1 is screaming for detonation and thermal stress.
Its all relative to time and cost.
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Old February 10th, 2015, 04:59 PM   #74
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Hold on for just a second. Are you sure you want the stock cam timing? I think it would be a good idea to dial in the cams at a desired setting. It is not going to cost anything extra since you need to move the cams form the position the are in when you lift the head. Better to get the cam timing in a good spot for a turbo. That spot is part of the in known . So you should know what it is before you start anyhow.
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Old February 10th, 2015, 05:38 PM   #75
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The timing with the spacer will advance 3 deg. This may or may not be more suited forced induction. That requires some research and maybe trial and error. It is however a possibility that leaving the timing 3deg advanced is a good place to start without re grinding cams or altering gears. Whatever I decide to run will be based on best opinion & research, measured and documented. There are many theories and they all vary, combustion chamber design, bore, stroke, backpressure etc etc these all play a roll. Bottom line is each engine type is different and each individual modification can alter other factors. Its hard to mix recipes.
The goal for this engine is to give a simple set of modifications and data so anybody can do a 10 psi boost from a good starting point with the minimum of modifications. I feel that decompressing is a must for pump gas and reducing thermal stress on a street engine. I'm using a spacer because it is the easiest and cheapest way for the average player to reduce compression, not because its the best way. If the timing advance is in the right direction I'm inclined to leave it because it will be one less thing for someone with less money and equipment to have to do.
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Old February 11th, 2015, 06:08 AM   #76
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That is an exelebt approach. I have tried to document all I can with my landspeed racing. I want the 250 ninja to challenge the two strokes. I can't do it alone. And with everyone sharing data and working together I can see someone someday going well over 150 mph.
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Old February 11th, 2015, 06:14 AM   #77
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Hey racer x. Big cup racing has just hit 65hp on their turbo fzr250! I had a dream last night I hit 75, hopefully that will come true!
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Old February 11th, 2015, 06:55 AM   #78
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Wow, the turbos are making big numbers. May should be interesting on the notrous side. There is a project that will make its first runs. He says he has stalked me and built an awsome bike around what I have done. He also holds the track record at 240 mph with a notrous Busa so it should be interesting to see what he does.
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Old February 11th, 2015, 09:10 AM   #79
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What are your guys ( @Racer x, @swarfman64 ) thoughts about running a small shot of nitrous to keep the intake temps down a little?

I noticed on my bike just with the bike idling and the charge pipe off the air coming out of the turbo is decently warm, I can only imagine what its like with 12psi

Thoughts?
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Old February 11th, 2015, 09:20 AM   #80
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Methanol injection! (cheaper and more readily avail than the NOS)
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