Turbo install

[Somchai]

It's always impressive to see your work Andrew, even when here are more guys doing impressive things also

[swarfman64]

Originally Posted by garth285

Looks like a RC51 or VRF radiator now! lol.... looking great!

I'm on the fence about scrapping my 250 project have some crazy work changes going on as well as possibly buying a house so I might not have the time to mess with this any longer.....

I hope scrapping it doesn't happen, but I do understand prioritising. Maybe postpone its completion? As always any data I have will be available if it can help.

[garth285]

Originally Posted by swarfman64

I hope scrapping it doesn't happen, but I do understand prioritising. Maybe postpone its completion? As always any data I have will be available if it can help.

Yeah I dont want to scrap it either...... I think I know what my game plan will be. I'm going to see how the bike runs on pump gas, I removed my injector screens so I had to pick up a inline fuel filter, also going to route the return fuel line to the top of the tank for now for testing, I'm going to run a fuel map that gives it a bit more fuel up top and pulls a decent amount of timing and see how the bike runs... if it still runs bad I'm going to put the stock headers on it and run the bike.... I have a feeling my turbo header might be to restrictive but we'll see.... you havnt had any issues with this small turbo so not sure.

We'll see!!!! I'm on call for work this weekend which means I'll be in the garage unless the phone rings so hopefully I can get some work done!



On another note keep up the good work bud!!!

[swarfman64]

Loosely speaking, there is only one cylinder firing at once so the pulses entering the turbo are not intersecting, there following each other. This means as long as your pipe is comparable to the port it wont restrict. eg: an 18 litre truck engine has a turbo inlet similar to one exhaust port. My pressure test in the exhaust manifold showed correct or lower than expected pressures (to my surprise). I have manifold pipes matching port diameter. Pressure gauge and a length of pipe will soon tell you.

[swarfman64]

Cooler all mounted and plumbed, the outer fairing is held in place Velcro IMG_4482.jpg

IMG_4481.jpg
Now to find time to try it out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcedRU8br8Y

[garth285]

Whoa stealthy!!!!

[swarfman64]

Quick update.................nothing to update.
Work and life is running me ragged. I've run the bike with the cooler but haven't had time to play with the tune. I'd like the dyno finished then tune it properly anyway.
hopefully in the next month ill have some resalts.

[garth285]

Sounds good, keep up the good work!

I have been in touch with some engine builders over here and they all seem to think I have valve float. Working on a valve spring solution now.

[swarfman64]

Originally Posted by garth285

Sounds good, keep up the good work!

I have been in touch with some engine builders over here and they all seem to think I have valve float. Working on a valve spring solution now.

I'm really interested in your resalts, and thanks for posting your data, it all adds to an archive that someone will be grateful for one day.

[garth285]

Originally Posted by swarfman64

I'm really interested in your resalts, and thanks for posting your data, it all adds to an archive that someone will be grateful for one day.

Yeah thats exactly why I am posting it! Hopefully it will help someone else in the future. I think I have a valve spring solution so we'll see. Brock Davidson is helping me out find something as well so we'll see!

[Racer x]

Originally Posted by garth285

Yeah thats exactly why I am posting it! Hopefully it will help someone else in the future. I think I have a valve spring solution so we'll see. Brock Davidson is helping me out find something as well so we'll see!

Brock is the man! Tell him I said hi.

[garth285]

Hey bud, hows that bike running? I will have one last valve spring in to test tomorrow but I was thinking about your bike today and why it may not have the issues I'm having. The 07 and earlier 250's have dual valve springs on the intake side.... got me thinking how much seat pressure those bikes may have? I won't be dealing with those engines but something to think about!

Anyways hope that bike is still running great! I will have springs in a head within a weeks time and hopefully testing shortly after!

[swarfman64]

Thanks for asking, I finished the intercooler and rode it twice. I've decided to wait for the dyno to be finished and tune it properly rather than risk killing the new engine. Its been wet here for a month so I'm not missing it and I've been riding the "café" on the dry weekends. The support from ecotrons is a joke so I think I'll change over to a factory ecu, I've been talking to Woolich racing and I think I'll do a package to go with the dyno which will also do my bike. It seems quite cheep for a setup to do a huge range of bikes. I got a little side tracked this month and got stuck into my skid steer project (on the blog too) but the dyno will be back at the top of the list next week.
I'm realy interested in your spring research, if you problems lay in the seat pressure my bike may be on the edge of the same problem. cheers

[garth285]

Sounds good bud!

As far as your springs maybe they 07and earlier engines have better seat pressure than the 08+'s ??? I dont know if anyone has ever measured them or not but I know the intake side has dual springs so that might be a indication it has higher spring pressure..... possibly....

I am going to have the 636 springs in my head by the end of next week and hopefully give it a try shortly after.

[swarfman64]

I found myself with a few minutes to spare today so I fitted some clip ons I got off eBay a couple of months ago ( item no 271577079397) They weren't really listed for a pregen so it was a bit of a punt. I slid the fork tubes up, lowered the front by 20mm and they went straight on. Full lock both directions has good clearance to everything and no interference in the riding position with gloves. The riding position is terrific (I like a more aggressive stance).
So I'll start playing with the rear shock and ride height next,IMG_4715.jpg

IMG_4716.jpg just tidying up what I can until I can get the dyno finished. I also added a sequential shift light too.

[swarfman64]

Long awaited update.
I finally finished the dyno, tuned my cafe racer and loaded the ninja on ready to finalize this turbo project. Within 10 minutes of running, watching sensor outputs etc i found a major problem. My map sensor reads differently to the actual manifold pressure. Both are tapped from the same port but the map sensor shows eg 750hpa when I have 3 psi(1232hpa) boost. I swapped and tested sensors and gauges with the result being a software/filtering issue.
This is why the bike has been impossible to tune and it is only with the ability to run the bike on the dyno while watching data that I could find the problem.
A quick email with the data to ecotrons gave me a solution... with there reply..... no support unless you pay $250 us dollars. Wow, my solution is to remove there crap kit and fit a whole new management system. They have a very comprehensive system but with poor throttle body's, poorly crimped wiring, little or no data/manual for all functions and next to no support..... I'm dun, out, finished with them.
So, the project is still all go, I may try a modded factory efi system or something else. I've spent nearly $2000 Ausi bucks on the ecotrons crap so I've already overspent, and there is a limit to this project. Blow through carbs is an option too. So no dyno figures yet, I'm ding the best I can in between work and life. Cheers
P.S. If anyone in the world purchased the ecotrons turbo ninja efi kit and made it work please let me know.
My guess is There turbo kit was NEVER a reality. (rant)

[swarfman64]

Oh yer, I found my rear shock was all but sized so I fitted a later '04 zzr rear shock. Its a little shorter and has the pre-load adjuster so my bike now sits level and lower than it was before with this and the front mods.

[swarfman64]

Mmmmm, update. A fresh email from ecotrons came today, With apology and offer of support. We'll see ware this takes me

[Somchai]

Hi Andrew,

I hope your project will successful go on and not end nowhere like others

When I look on the website of Ecotrons http://www.ecotrons.com/products/kaw...injection_kit/ then I find this:
13. Easy to upgrade to a turbo version (2.5bar MAP sensor, and 2x190g injectors)
so I think that the guys over there should in an easy way be able to assist you.
Good luck

[swarfman64]

I'm not giving up. I already have all the turbo options from ecotrons, but the required support is missing, another week of silence has passed. If i cant get help from them i will either go for another efi system or blow through carbs. Unfortunately There is a limit to the money i will spend on this project, It appears the only thing stopping completion is the ecu side of the fuel system. Ive got all the fuel i need, any timing i want, a sound engine and plenty of boost. Cheers

[Somchai]

Originally Posted by swarfman64

I'm not giving up.

This is good to hear and I congratulate you.
But also I understand about the limit in money, sometimes one has to draw a line...

Andrew idk your system so let me ask a question, is the map-sensor measuring vacuum or pressure?
If it is measuring pressure then it's ok, but if it's measuring vacuum you should replace it since from the turbo there is boost coming into the inlet.
Second thing, don't change the original values for fuel and ignition until the engine is running and you find out that you have to change anything from this (normally the ignition should not be changed, ignition in most cases is not understood by many).
At least the best way would be the microsquirt ecu plus oem fuel-system, but with all that you're on the money-route.
So again, I wish you best success

[swarfman64]

After allot of testing i have found the map sensor reads correctly during testing with engine off. i pressurized it with a regulator and tested the voltage. With the engine running it reads incorrectly, I believe due to software filtering which I cannot alter.

[Somchai]

Originally Posted by swarfman64

After allot of testing i have found the map sensor reads correctly during testing with engine off. i pressurized it with a regulator and tested the voltage. With the engine running it reads incorrectly, I believe due to software filtering which I cannot alter.

Thx for your answer, so even when idk if this could be a/the solution but you should read it:
http://www.4agte.nl/MAP-Sensor-Trick.10.0.html

[swarfman64]

So without making this a rant, ill keep this bit short.... Ecotrons support is nothing short of pathetic, almost uninformed. I would advise anybody who wishes to use there product with a non standard system to save there money and buy a more established and proven brand with real support.

Now..... the turbo is taking a turn, because I have spent too much and can't justify a new injection system I'm going blow through the carbs.

I have kitted my original carbs, removed the injection, fitted a rising rate reg and pump and refitted the ignition module.
I'm going to try and keep carb mods to a minimum or none. A pitot tube will go into the intake for boost balance/ enrichment.
So, if this is successful it may open the door for others to turbo there ninjas without the expense of injection. Blowing through cvk carbs is nothing new but there can be allot of effort put into the boost balance tube.

I did make new fuel transfer and air vent pipes for the carbys but only because its Saturday night and replacement o rings aren't readily available, so I made pipes to fit generic o rings from my kit. I did extend the tube for the hose to make things a little easier but it wasn't necessary.
IMG_5600.jpgIMG_5601.jpg

IMG_5603.jpgIMG_5604.jpg

[swarfman64]

OCD must be kikin in again, Up at 5:30 and built the pitot tube and manifold.
I decided to do a deceleration valve delete just to simplify plumbing and remove a potential tuning issue (due to boost pressure). So I have completely removed the valve and now the two air bleed lines from the carby go to my pitot manifold to receive the same balance pressure as the bowl vents and the rising rate reg. The air fitting on the air cleaner side of the carb is blocked and the manifold connection will be for my blow off valve.
IMG_5605.jpg
A view from the under side of the plenum, the hole on the pipe is 6mm at this stage.

IMG_5606.jpg
Next is to fit the regulator and plumb the fuel side. I'm thinkin i should have done it this way from the start.

[swarfman64]

Little update.
Fuel system done. Malpassi rising rate reg fitted and i have kept the fuel injection pump. This particular reg is designed for reducing injection pump pressures to carb pressures,.05 to .4 bar plus 1:1 boost pressure compensation.

I have moved the air bleed vents to a non pitot port because they are too sensitive to the increase in pressure.
IMG_5612.jpg


She starts and runs nicely but goes lean on boost, so....I'm going to move the pitot to the pipe between the cooler and the plenum. There will be a stronger signal mid pipe and the main reason is i can access it without removing the fuel tank etc.
I can see a little fiddling but its looking promising.

[Somchai]

Andrew I always enjoy your work

[swarfman64]

Originally Posted by Somchai

Andrew I always enjoy your work

Thanks heaps, Nice to know people are watching. Hopefully it all comes together.

[Somchai]

You're welcome Andrew.

Since I've not seen an opened Ninja engine until now I would like to ask you, as the expert, a question: Do you think it is possible to tighten the cylinder head bolts with more torque?
If it is - then with a turbo charger do it.
With saying this I remember the Ford Capris from Michael May in Switzerland with their turbo engines, they'd run with carbs also and they've been very reliable.

[Racer x]

Andrew you work here is awesome
I am looking forward to more .

I'm not sure more torque is the best. Harder bolts or studs might be better. But I'm not sure.

[Somchai]

Originally Posted by Racer x

I'm not sure more torque is the best. Harder bolts or studs might be better. But I'm not sure.

Thank you Eric, it was just an idea

[swarfman64]

Originally Posted by Somchai

You're welcome Andrew.

Since I've not seen an opened Ninja engine until now I would like to ask you, as the expert, a question: Do you think it is possible to tighten the cylinder head bolts with more torque?
If it is - then with a turbo charger do it.
With saying this I remember the Ford Capris from Michael May in Switzerland with their turbo engines, they'd run with carbs also and they've been very reliable.

I wouldn't increase the torque myself, case strength, bolt stretch and distortions are a problem. If I have any ptoblems I'll go to copper gasket and o ring the block, pretty standard fix that gives a "pinch" to the gasket.

PS, I'm no expert

[swarfman64]

Originally Posted by Racer x

Andrew you work here is awesome
I am looking forward to more .

I'm not sure more torque is the best. Harder bolts or studs might be better. But I'm not sure.

Thank you Eric, love to get this thing finished. It's been a year and I miss my little bike, we got nothing but warm weather for months here.

[swarfman64]

Small update. I found an hour or so this weekend to play around with the bike.
I made a new pitot tube and brazed it into the pipe between the inter cooler and the plenum in order to get a greater pressure signal. It did make an improvement but I'm still too lean on boost. Next step was to fit a small restriction into the pipe after the pitot, giving an increase of pressure to the carb vent pipe. After two attempts, success, I found a size that will produce a slightly over rich mixture. I'm now in the ballpark, I'll make up some more refined parts and fit them up in the next week or two.
IMG_5647.jpg IMG_5646.jpg

I also had an issue of fuel pressure not being able to set low enough off boost, turns out the quick disconnect fittings I'm using are restricting the return so much its setting the base pressure. Some mods to the plumbing and also a permanently Fitted gauge will see that minor problem solved. So, I'm waiting for the gauge to show up before i continue testing but I'll fit some stick coils in the meantime, now the ecotrons system is removed and I'm back on the factory ignition module I'm happier using them.

[zilog]

Very nice work!

I am willing to ask: Why didn`t you go with blowing through the carbs initially?

[Racer x]

You are a genius .

[swarfman64]

Originally Posted by zilog

Very nice work!

I am willing to ask: Why didn`t you go with blowing through the carbs initially?

Simple, I Had already fitted and EFI kit about 5 months earlier and adding boost should not have been a problem. There is no doubt that injection makes tuning more precise and easier.

[Yamahawk]

I remember us two-stroke guys used to use a dial-a-jet setup to increase the gas flow from venturi pressure by drilling the top of the intake bell, and fitting a 'jet' from the bowl drain, i believe... then when needed, it would add more fuel. Would something like this help your lean on boost condition?

[swarfman64]

Originally Posted by Yamahawk

I remember us two-stroke guys used to use a dial-a-jet setup to increase the gas flow from venturi pressure by drilling the top of the intake bell, and fitting a 'jet' from the bowl drain, i believe... then when needed, it would add more fuel. Would something like this help your lean on boost condition?

Thanks for your input, the answer is possibly. I am purposely trying the simplest things first to gain knowlage and to hopefully find the easiest way for others to duplicate the system. I have built a variable pitot tube but not everyone has the resorces to do so. The key to blowing through is the pressure put into the bowl vent, I'd love to end with a value for others to aim for , a ballpark figure. I want this as least complex as I can.

[swarfman64]

image.jpg
Variable pitot, without over explaining it, I built it to test the idea that pitot diameter increse (forward opening area) will increse bowl pressure. Science of basic pitot says no but the turbo piping and the fact turbo pitot' actually flow air says maybe. When and if I get to play with this is all about precious time.