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Old April 9th, 2013, 06:03 PM   #161
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I mean jet size. I have spent hundreds of hours on the dyno with this engine. If you aren't pulling enough fuel through the carbs you don't make the power. You should have an A/F ratio about 13 maybe 12.5 to 1 . With 108 to 111 jets that is just about 30 hp. When I got 34 hp on my most powerful motor. 13.5 to 1 shaved block. Race gas and the ignition timing hitting 44 deg I was using 117 jets with stock carbs. I now use 129 jets in my cr special carbs and am about at 33 hp and the AF is some place around 13.
We will see but I would start at the 108 and watch it close. That's all.
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Old April 9th, 2013, 10:10 PM   #162
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You could break her in on the dyno...
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Old April 9th, 2013, 10:16 PM   #163
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Breaking in an engine on a dyno is much safer than on the street.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 02:29 AM   #164
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Instead of installing your new camshafts straight away. You might want to consider installing the stock camshafts until you get the carbs tuned.

With brand new flat tappet camshafts, it is especially important that the engine starts straight away for break in. You don't really want to be cranking the engine over to get oil pressure with your new camshafts.

Also, you need the idle to remain above 2500 rpm for the first 15-20 minutes as the flow from the oil pump is not sufficient below this rpm.

My advice is to install the stock camshafts for the initial break in or until you have the carbs tuned. So you know its going to start straight away and you know how to get your idle speed above 2500 rpm asap, whether it is by the choke or the throttle.

You also don't need the 360 degree wheel right now. It can wait a week. The stock camshaft are machined so they will only come out and go in when the piston is in the right position.

Also it isn't hard to install the camshafts after. You can do it without removing the radiator.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 03:29 AM   #165
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That just seems like a lot of work. Every engine ever built has been cranked until it got oil pressure.

That is why you use assembly lube. So you can crank the engine untill it starts.
Theses are shim under bucket cams. Flat tappers are for pushrods.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 03:30 AM   #166
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Quote:
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Breaking in an engine on a dyno is much safer than on the street.
I need some advice Eric. With the first start up and priming the oil system, how do you do it?

I got told by the local kawa mechanic to remove spark plugs and disconnect the carbs from head, put a few drops of oil in the bores through the spark plug hole then crank it over with the starter motor.

Anything you do different?

What things do you double check before starting it up for the first time?
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Old April 10th, 2013, 04:17 AM   #167
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I put the engine together with LOTS of motor oil and assembly lube. Then when I put te engine in the bike I hook up everything. When I go to start it. I kill the ignition. I can crank my engine with the bar switch turned off.

I crank the engine for about ten seconds. I also prime the oil pump with petroleum grease.

For a street bike I try to start it up and begin the moto man procedure ASAP. But I can't ride my bike on the street.

So I let it idle for a couple seconds and shut it off. Then make an appointment for a break in on the dyno.
That can take all day with the cool down. So a friendly dyno shop is a must. It is fun to watch the smoke stop as the engine breaks in and the rings seal.

Really ,most engines are just put together and put into use immediately. Few have problems.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 08:18 AM   #168
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I mean jet size. I have spent hundreds of hours on the dyno with this engine. If you aren't pulling enough fuel through the carbs you don't make the power. You should have an A/F ratio about 13 maybe 12.5 to 1 . With 108 to 111 jets that is just about 30 hp. When I got 34 hp on my most powerful motor. 13.5 to 1 shaved block. Race gas and the ignition timing hitting 44 deg I was using 117 jets with stock carbs. I now use 129 jets in my cr special carbs and am about at 33 hp and the AF is some place around 13.
We will see but I would start at the 108 and watch it close. That's all.
I ordered 112, 115, 118 and 120 jets. I will put in the 112 and test from there. Better to be too rich in my opinion. With race gas, the extra oxygen in the fuel requires more total fuel.

One thing that must be considered is that the larger bore size on your CR carbs will automatically take larger jets to get the same amount of fuel. I learned this when working on my CRF250X and turning it into a CRF250R. The R had a larger carb for top end and used larger jets. I tried to mimic the stock R jetting and was coming out EXTREMELY rich. Smaller jets gave me the correct A/F.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 08:30 AM   #169
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Correct I use 129 jets now and used 117 before.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 08:32 AM   #170
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Rich or lean that is the beauty of the dyno. You can change jets between cool down
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Old April 10th, 2013, 01:21 PM   #171
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Per recommendations on this thread I'm running the db killer as well. Thoughts?
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Old April 10th, 2013, 03:56 PM   #172
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What is a db killer?
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Old April 10th, 2013, 04:44 PM   #173
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Just a baffle for the muffler that reduces sound level and decrease airflow slightly.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 04:47 PM   #174
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^ what he said. It will add just a hair more back pressure. I will test with it in and out once ready.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 05:58 PM   #175
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This engine benefits from back pressure. There is a lot more testing to figure out what is best for a highly modified engine. But I have found real problems from open exhaust. In every case the power has gone down even though I am keeping the A F the same.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 08:34 PM   #176
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Then I'm keeping it.

So I put in the cams. I keep running into the issue that the exhaust cam wants to skip a tooth. I can see that it is because of the pressure on number one cylinder....ideas? I have stalled it so far but I don't like it.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 08:35 PM   #177
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I also finished up the safety wire.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 09:35 PM   #178
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Then I'm keeping it.

So I put in the cams. I keep running into the issue that the exhaust cam wants to skip a tooth. I can see that it is because of the pressure on number one cylinder....ideas? I have stalled it so far but I don't like it.
On the dyno I also found that the engine picked up an extra hp when we installed the silencer. The whole reason we did it was the o2 sensor kept falling out.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 09:46 PM   #179
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I wanted to prove to everyone that using heavy duty scotch-brite and oil to micro-polish your own journals at home does not change to size of your journals.

Below is the difference between a professional micro-polished crankshaft and a home polished balance shaft.

The professional journals look like chrome. It is quite amazing.

I was also told by another professional that micro-polishing removes 0.005mm. This is wrong and he is using the wrong linisher belts. Professional micro-polishing should not remove any material and your clearances should not change.

I was a bit skeptical to say the least. But what my crank grinder told me was correct. They did not change. Even the home job balance shaft journals. I have triple checked them for accuracy.

Also I measured them with a micrometer and they did not change size in diameter at all.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 09:56 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Racer x View Post
That just seems like a lot of work. Every engine ever built has been cranked until it got oil pressure.

That is why you use assembly lube. So you can crank the engine untill it starts.
Theses are shim under bucket cams. Flat tappers are for pushrods.
Thanks for the help Eric.

I am overly cautious about stuff I know. The whole reason I'm doing it is because I want to see the difference on the dyno. I'm installing them at the dyno shop. I have a good shop that can fit me in whenever I want to go down.

Not to mention I don't see the point if your carbs aren't tuned.

This is what I'm using to assemble. Its cheap as motul 3000 and Dow Corning G-N assemble paste mixed together. It is amazing. Super slippery and thick
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Old April 11th, 2013, 08:06 AM   #181
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I am using assembly lube...lots of it. I am also applying oil to the surfaces once they are together and then priming the oil pump before starting. it should be more than fine.
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Old April 12th, 2013, 08:09 AM   #182
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TOPIC FOR DISCUSSION:

so last night I was checking valve clearances and using the method of: if it fits that is the clearance, if it stops of the lobe and does not fit it does not fit. if it feels kinda of loose at one spec, but my next size does fit, it must be just over the smaller one.

reason for discussion:

I have heard everything from the above to it should have little to no resistance when sliding under the lobe. What do you recommend?

as for clearances, I am shooting for the loose end of the spec on the exhaust (.28mm or so) and the middle of the intake (.195 or so). This will help the exhaust valve with heat issues.
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Old April 12th, 2013, 08:10 AM   #183
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I should be able to complete the clearances tonight. After that, I will flush the motor again and then fill and prime it with a drill/socket on the flywheel.

from there, I will program the ignition and then fit the bodywork.
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Old April 12th, 2013, 08:20 AM   #184
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I use a go- nogo feeler gauge .
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Old April 12th, 2013, 08:45 AM   #185
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So you are using my method then? The gauges I have are feeler gauges and tell me the clearance but the increments are not as fine as I would like.
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Old April 12th, 2013, 10:21 AM   #186
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It's definately an aquired feel. If your trying to achieve a specific setting you will have to use that specific feeler guage and adjust the clearance so theres just a little bit of drag as you slide the feeler guage back and forth. As I said this is an aquired feel, I have adjusted many valves over the years and know how the drag on the feeler guage feels with just an .001 change in adjustment. This being said, the go no go method would probably work best. The other point is, shim under bucket are a pain in the ass compared to the adjustable rocker setup as far as time it takes to fine tune the clearance.
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Old April 12th, 2013, 10:29 AM   #187
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So you use feel? I will use feel tonight and see what I get.

Either way I know I will need to go in one more time. I did find a method to avoid chain skip....I place a screwdriver in between the head and chain until everything is tight.
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Old April 12th, 2013, 01:50 PM   #188
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what a beautiful engine.
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Old April 12th, 2013, 04:40 PM   #189
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Oh hell, Subscribed. Digging it.

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Old April 13th, 2013, 06:43 AM   #190
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Is it easier to install half the motor onto the bike and then assemble the rest?

Edit: I also noticed you bore matched your head gasket? Any issues with not having it bore matched?
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Old April 13th, 2013, 07:57 AM   #191
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I don't bore match the head gasket. Maybe I should.
I like to do it all on the bench.
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Old April 13th, 2013, 09:50 AM   #192
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Is it easier to install half the motor onto the bike and then assemble the rest?

Edit: I also noticed you bore matched your head gasket? Any issues with not having it bore matched?
It seemed much easier. I could move it around with one arm a lot easier. Everything else that required torque was also well served by being in the frame and stable.

Yes I bore matched it to avoid any issues with clearance.
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Old April 13th, 2013, 01:48 PM   #193
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So everything is on but the bodywork. I was going through my final checks and I have two issues that I need your opinion on.

1) on the stand I can access 1st and neutral...I cannot get it to upshift on the stand.
2) there is a tight spot...not a mechanical stop....at tdc for the 2nd cylinder. Tdc for cylinder 1 just rolls on by.

Any chance someone could give these a shot on their bike and let me know? Has anyone run into these?

I followed the manual completely and I have no extra parts
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Old April 13th, 2013, 01:52 PM   #194
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Quote:
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So everything is on but the bodywork. I was going through my final checks and I have two issues that I need your opinion on.

1) on the stand I can access 1st and neutral...I cannot get it to upshift on the stand.
2) there is a tight spot...not a mechanical stop....at tdc for the 2nd cylinder. Tdc for cylinder 1 just rolls on by.

Any chance someone could give these a shot on their bike and let me know? Has anyone run into these?

I followed the manual completely and I have no extra parts

Bike will not go into 2nd on the stand. Only 1st and neutral. So thats normal. For my bike when doing valve adjustments at TDC 2nd cylinder does seem to "hold" a bit more than 1st cylinder. But also mine is a pregen so idk if there is any differences cam wise.
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Old April 13th, 2013, 02:12 PM   #195
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Ok. Cool?

I suppose I wonder how cyl 2 could be tight and not 1? The valve timing...bore size..valve size...yes everything is the same for both cylinders.

I guess ill wait to see if she upshifts after I start it?
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Old April 13th, 2013, 02:24 PM   #196
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if she upshifts after I start it?
and after you get moving.

The positive neutral finder only allows you to up shift while you're moving. I wouldn't worry about that just yet.
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Old April 13th, 2013, 04:05 PM   #197
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Ok..so it seems the tranny issue is ok. What about the odd tight spot? At first I thought it might be the cam chain but that checked out.

I did spin the motor with a drill after filling her up with oil from the cam box and clutch areas. Except for yhe tight spot everythinv moved and it went well. Cam timing stayed put.
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Old April 13th, 2013, 04:35 PM   #198
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The tightness is not in the valves.cams. I dettached the cams and turned over the motor only to find the same thing. I would have no idea what on the lower end could cause this.
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Old April 13th, 2013, 04:36 PM   #199
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@tubarney did you assemble yours yet?
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Old April 13th, 2013, 07:01 PM   #200
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Any more ideas?
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