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Old February 10th, 2009, 01:37 PM   #1
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Front End Wobbles

Okay, found this out quite by accident, but when I ride with no hands on the bars (and applying no gas, obviously) at above 50 mph, the front end will start to oscillate back and forth, growing larger and larger if I let it. Lower speeds than that does not seem to produce this. It's almost like headshake you get from too steep fork angles on aggressive geometry sport bikes.

It's something that's fairly recent... anyone have any ideas what I should check or what could be the cause of such a problem? I have some ideas of my own, but would like to hear what most here think could be the problem.

No, this is not a trick question... I need to fix this.

thanks
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Old February 10th, 2009, 01:44 PM   #2
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You've done the same thing before and did not get that effect?

Tire pressure?

The changes you've done to the fork height could have an effect.

Not sure.

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Old February 10th, 2009, 01:44 PM   #3
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An out of aligned rear tire will cause the bike to steer off-axis and the front tire will be forced to re-align itself with the direction the rear is "facing" and depending on speed, road condition, etc., the oscillation will wobble the front end. In many cases, changing the rear tire will correct this.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 01:49 PM   #4
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I thought 250's normaly did that when you were doing the "Look Ma no hands" manuvering... Tyke certainly always has even at lower speeds.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 01:56 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by KJohnson21 View Post
You've done the same thing before and did not get that effect?

Tire pressure?

The changes you've done to the fork height could have an effect.

Not sure.

Sorry, I've never ridden with no hands before. I was zipping up a zipper on my left wrist and momentarily took both hands off the bars and noticed it.

I have the forks back in the stock position, so I just brought them back up, so it should be lessened, if anything.

I'll need to recheck my tire pressure.

thanks for the ideas.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 01:57 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by g21-30 View Post
An out of aligned rear tire will cause the bike to steer off-axis and the front tire will be forced to re-align itself with the direction the rear is "facing" and depending on speed, road condition, etc., the oscillation will wobble the front end. In many cases, changing the rear tire will correct this.
I'll check that, too.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 01:59 PM   #7
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I thought 250's normaly did that when you were doing the "Look Ma no hands" manuvering... Tyke certainly always has even at lower speeds.
Wow... that's interesting. I'd be very interested to hear from others if this is a common occurrence with our bikes. I wouldn't think so... you may have the same problem I have, whatever it ends up being.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 02:06 PM   #8
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Wow... that's interesting. I'd be very interested to hear from others if this is a common occurrence with our bikes. I wouldn't think so... you may have the same problem I have, whatever it ends up being.
From what I understand it's standard thing, but it's going to affect different bike setups at different speeds. Some bikes are more stable than others.

Do you mean with your long list of prior bikes, you haven't encountered this on occasion?

I'm not an expert, this is just my
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Old February 10th, 2009, 02:08 PM   #9
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Harley actually had a recall for this on the HDs. Seems like the rear wheel spokes loosened up and caused the rear tire to be misaligned. But our bikes don't have spokes. I googled the problem and there are other things that can cause this, as well.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 02:09 PM   #10
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From what I understand it's standard thing, but it's going to affect different bike setups at different speeds. Some bikes are more stable than others.

Do you mean with your long list of prior bikes, you haven't encountered this on occasion?

I'm not an expert, this is just my
To be truthful, no. And I have ridden w/o hands on the bars before on those bikes to check alignment.

I do have the Woodcraft clipons installed and they don't have bar end weights... perhaps this contributes to it now?
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Old February 10th, 2009, 02:12 PM   #11
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Harley actually had a recall for this on the HDs. Seems like the rear wheel spokes loosened up and caused the rear tire to be misaligned. But our bikes don't have spokes. I googled the problem and there are other things that can cause this, as well.
Yeah, I know there are some major things that can cause this. I'm just trying to see if I've overlooked something relatively simple as I don't remember having this problem until recently. I will check my rear wheel alignment, but I haven't touched that recently.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 02:13 PM   #12
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To be truthful, no. And I have ridden w/o hands on the bars before on those bikes to check alignment.

I do have the Woodcraft clipons installed and they don't have bar end weights... perhaps this contributes to it now?
Ohhh... Yes. The stock handlebars have weights and the Woodcraft do not, right? That could certainly contribute to the problem. The weights would have a damper effect.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 02:15 PM   #13
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I've heard of them used to cut bar vibrations, but not to avoid front end oscillation.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 02:21 PM   #14
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I will check my rear wheel alignment, but I haven't touched that recently.
What made me think of it, was the slightly larger tire (I think) you put on the rear.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 02:25 PM   #15
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True, but others have done the same and some even larger and this is the first I'm hearing of this "problem".
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Old February 10th, 2009, 02:26 PM   #16
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I've heard of them used to cut bar vibrations, but not to avoid front end oscillation.
I can't find a reference right now, but I remember that it's one of the effects bar weights can have. It wouldn't be a night and day type of thing. Just enough to slow the initial occurance.

Then again, I could be mistaken.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 02:30 PM   #17
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Well, you could be correct because if I keep my hands on the bars, there is no indication of anything being wrong, at any speed. It's only when I take my hands completely off the bars above 50mph does this start to happen.

You mean to tell me this happens to all of the 250s? I find that hard to believe.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 02:33 PM   #18
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You mean to tell me this happens to all of the 250s? I find that hard to believe.
I feel a test ride coming on. I'll post my data as soon as I can get it, which will probably be Friday.

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Old February 10th, 2009, 02:43 PM   #19
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Just ever so slightly unrelated as I can't comment on a 250r (it arrives tomorrow - woohoo!) but I had a similar experience at much lower speeds and I never really got to the bottom of it...

Was a Marin Mountvision full suspension bike and whenever I got beyond 15mph and took my hands off the bars (which I often liked to do after a really hard ride) the handlebars started to wobble and would increase the rate of wobble to the point of crapping my pants and I'd rapidly grab the bars again.
This had nothing to do with my riding ability. I can easily go round bends without my hands on the bars and rode so often hands free whilst chilling out that I can do quick little flicks and change direction without a problem on roads or slightly uneven terrain. Done it for years on bikes of varying quality, £50 to £2000 and never had a problem till my most expensive bike lol - go figure.

I took it to 5 different specialists including the manufacturers cause I was really narked at this - a £2k mountain bike should be able to do what a £50 bike can do - go in a straight line lol.......
and all of them told me my bike was 100% ok, absolutely nothing wrong with it. They threw all sorts of crap as to why it might be doing it; some blamed my riding, the weight from the reflector on the wheel, the weight from the valve and in the end all I got from the manufacturer was that I shouldn't be riding it with no hands in the first place.
So I sold it and have a bike for half the price that goes in a straight line again.

Now it could be an induced feeling due to lack of confidence in the bike which I had ever since the first handlebar wobble, but I can swear that the wheels were working against each other when going round the corners. I could feel it, the bike never felt right going round corners and on a perfectly flat road could not go above 15mph without crazy handlebar shake if I took my hands off.

And for me - a bike that cant go in a straight line on multiple flat roads and feels very odd around corners has an alignment problem, no matter how slight.
Maybe full suspension configurations can accentuate a normally acceptable slight misalignment to a problematic handlebar wobble

I would suggest you experiment with your bike on long bends at varying speeds and really concentrate as to how the wheels feel. You've been riding a long time, you'll know what I mean if the wheels don't feel like they are going round a corner together.

I would imagine that you would only need a very slight misalignment to cause some wobble at 50mph.

Or as Marin told me.....stop riding hands free lol
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Old February 10th, 2009, 02:58 PM   #20
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Our 2004 did it, and our 2008 does it. If you decelerate through 45 - 50 mph with hands completely off bars and your weight leaned back, you can get the bars to wobble a bit. Tried everything to fix it on the 2004, including a number of warranty repairs. End result is, many of these bikes just do that. (Kawi will tell you the same thing if you call them) Check tire pressure, steering head bearings, and rear-wheel alignment, but if all of those are OK and there are no other symptoms, don't worry about it. And don't keep both hands off the bars for long.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 03:11 PM   #21
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Thanks guys. Checked my tire pressures and both are set to the usual 30psi. I double checked my rear wheel alignment... the adjusters have not moved.

My gut feeling is telling me to check the steering stem nut for tightness and perhaps I got a bad front tire. I've been having a sort of bumpity, bump when leaned over on the 090s since that day I changed to them. It's perfectly okay in a straight line or in turns when the throttle is on, but in throttle off type of corners, I could feel the bumping.... like I was riding on scallops near the edge of the tire. The tire looks fine, though, so it could be an internal matter.

Good (?) to hear you've had similar problems... it seems the clipons may be aggravating or amplifying the wobble.

I agree... for now I'll just keep my hands on the bars when riding until I can check the steering stem nut.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 04:12 PM   #22
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It's a regular occurence on my 06 as well. I had heard that it was normal so I never paid attention to it and there's no indication of a problem as long as you even have just one finger on the bars...

similar concept on a pedal bike I guess... if you go no-hands while decelerating the front tire will start to wobble.

I've read claims, though, of people that swapped out their tires and "apparantly" fixed the "problem" because of the different tread patterns etc.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 08:29 PM   #23
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Okay, something weird is going on. I rode the bike to work this afternoon and the shimming/wobbling was greatly diminished when I tried to induce it. Still there, but barely noticeable. The only difference between this morning and this afternoon was that I had my tail bag on the rear of the bike coming to work. (weighs maybe 10 lbs) It does appear there might be something misaligned with my rear wheel, perhaps? I'll adjust my chain to doublecheck the rear wheel alignment. Pretty weird.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 09:05 PM   #24
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My 08 is completely stock aside from a painted windshield and fender chop, and I have never experienced any sort of wobble on my bike. I take my hands off the bars fairly frequently to stretch my arms and shoulders. It's usually at speeds around 50 on my way home, but I have done it as low as the 20s and as high as the 80s. Never any sort of wobble.

With all the stuff you have done to your bike, it may be a very slight misalignment somewhere. The rear tire sounds like the best starting place based on your tail bag experience. Good luck and keep us informed as usual!
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Old February 10th, 2009, 09:14 PM   #25
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thanks for your feedback. it does seem like a crappy mechanic induced error. That guy is such a hack!!

I'll recheck the rear wheel alignment tomorrow.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 09:28 PM   #26
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I'd check tyre wear/tyre shape too - it could be the cause or help to provide tell tale signs of uneven wear caused by a misalignment.

You have a 140/70 on the rear and I think some on Kawi Forums mentioned that the 'fall in' to a turn seems much quicker and some attributed that to the altered profile by squeezing on the 140 to that rim. So if a tyre shape can affect cornering its possible that tyre shape/wear could affect your bike on the straight.

It could be a wheel balancing issue. I know that on my ford puma, I have to get all 4 wheels rebalanced annually as over the course of a year my steering wheel will still start to shake and by the end of the year you can hear the watch on the wrist of the arm holding the wheel rattle and by the time I'm doing 70mph, it rattles a lot. Then I get the wheels rebalanced and voila problem solved. Apparently its a problem common to puma's.

There's so many things it could be. I wish you luck in your endeavours.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 09:33 PM   #27
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Thanks for the ideas. I don't suspect wheel balancing as going in a straight line with my hands on the bars has no vibrations at all.

The tires have about 500 miles on them and I've been watching them closely, but no signs of irregular wear patterns.

I'll be sure to post up when I find the problem.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 09:42 PM   #28
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It's usually at speeds around 50 on my way home, but I have done it as low as the 20s and as high as the 80s.
It never happens at any speed other than 45 mph. Something about a particular resonant frequency of our frame/front-end assembly I'd guess. Go to a straight road, get your bike up to an indicated 55 mph in 6th gear, take your hands all the way off the bars, lean back (just a little, don't fall off!), and don't touch the bars until your speed indicates 40 mph. I have a hunch you might be surprised at what happens as you decelerate through 45ish mph...
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Old February 11th, 2009, 05:56 AM   #29
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Who balanced your wheels after putting on the new tires? < Thats the only thing I have ever seen cause it.
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Old February 11th, 2009, 09:21 AM   #30
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I have taken my hands of momentarily while adjusting a zipper and havent noticed any wobble. How long would you say you had your hands off before noticing this?
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Old February 11th, 2009, 09:40 AM   #31
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I don't think it's a matter of 2 seconds, 7 seconds, or 20 seconds with hands off the bars. I think it's a matter of am I decelerating through 45ish mph. If I'm going faster than that, no wobble no matter how long hands off bars. Below that, no wobble either. But if you're curious, try that test next time you're on the bike. (Get to 55ish mph in 6th gear, and take your hands off while the bike decelerates down to 40ish mph. Don't leave your hands too far from the bars, and be ready to regrab them quickly if the phenomenon arises.) No guarantees that you'll have any wobble at all. But I'd venture a number of you might. Happens on 2 out of our 2 bikes at least, and there's piles of discussion on this on that other site (re: 1st gen ninjettes).
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Old February 11th, 2009, 10:11 AM   #32
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only time Ive experienced wobbles was in a car cause of tires not balanced properly...
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Old February 11th, 2009, 10:26 AM   #33
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maybe your forks got a little twisted or something when you dropped them back down? just a thought.
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Old February 11th, 2009, 11:41 AM   #34
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Who balanced your wheels after putting on the new tires? < Thats the only thing I have ever seen cause it.
I did

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only time Ive experienced wobbles was in a car cause of tires not balanced properly...
Wobbles or vibration? This is the front end ocsillating side to side. I would think if the tire were out of balance there would be a vibration in a stright line, all the time.

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maybe your forks got a little twisted or something when you dropped them back down? just a thought.
I'll check that, but I lowered and tightened the the legs one at a time to avoid having that happen. Also, if the forks got twisted, wouldn't the front wheel be not pointing straight ahead when the bars are? The front wheel is straight.
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Old February 11th, 2009, 11:44 AM   #35
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I'll check that, but I lowered and tightened the the legs one at a time to avoid having that happen. Also, if the forks got twisted, wouldn't the front wheel be not pointing straight ahead when the bars are? The front wheel is straight.
honestly, i'm not sure what affected twisted or binding forks has on the bike aside from maybe creating some stiction in your fork movement.
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Old February 11th, 2009, 12:01 PM   #36
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... it seems the clipons may be aggravating or amplifying the wobble.
i've noticed a wobble while letting go of the bars, that seems to be abit more pronounced since putting on the woodcraft clip on's. wobble on my bike isn't something i'd have to change underwear over, but its abit more noticeable since changing bars.
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Old February 11th, 2009, 12:05 PM   #37
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yeah, this is big time wobble at the bars. I would say when at it's worse (decelerating through 50mph), the end of the bar shakes back and forth at least 1-1.5".
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Old February 11th, 2009, 01:00 PM   #38
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yeah, this is big time wobble at the bars. I would say when at it's worse (decelerating through 50mph), the end of the bar shakes back and forth at least 1-1.5".
maybe you're hula dancing and don't even realize it?
i can see that creating some wobble.
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Old February 11th, 2009, 01:06 PM   #39
komohana
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Name: Steve
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Motorcycle(s): 05 GSX-R 600 2003 EX250: Woodcraft Bars, Levers, Mirrors, Shim'd Mixture, Synthetic, '08 Rear Shock

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broom View Post
maybe you're hula dancing and don't even realize it?
i can see that creating some wobble.
hey!!

you're enducing visuals i don't need

hehehe
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Old February 11th, 2009, 01:07 PM   #40
kkim
 
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Yeah, I could see a little bit of headshake, but this is ridiculous.

No time to check the bike today... off to do other things.
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