IC Ignitor issues & power loss

[randomwalk101]

Think about what your saying. You said the tach in the orig message, not cdi.
Posted via Mobile Device

[noche_caliente]

hey guys - just found this post over on kf

Originally Posted by kevins_garage

I talked to about 40 dealers today across the US and Kawasaki and no one was aware of the "tach issue" or claims to have ever serviced any 08/09 Ninja 250's for the "tach issue". I also called NHTSA and they checked their "system" and showed that they had no reports of any complaints from 08/09 Ninja 250 owners about anything.

Based on what I've read on this forum and some other 250 forums, the "tach issue" seems to be fairly common and effects a fair number of folks. If I type up a form letter to send to NHTSA, will any of you guys/gals fill it out with your owner and bike info and mail it in to NHTSA?

NHTSA and Kawasaki are going to want to see a few hundred complaints typically before they will open an investigation and there'd probably have to be a few thousand or more complaints before it could ever hope to become an actual recall.

Let me know your thoughts and if there's enough interest, I'll post a form letter for all to submit.

[Banzai]

Called the dealer today to report the problem, he said he'd heard of it, and that Kawi was recommending that they reprogram something (presumably the ECU, but he wasn't clear on that part). Much to my surprise, he didn't give me any hassle or run-around about it. He said it takes several hours to do...perhaps it requires some sort of calibration, in which case that may actually be realistic.

Regardless, I'll take them in for round 1, and we'll see what happens. I won't be able to take them in until next week at the earliest, so I'll post up after I get them back.

I found this on another web site, and it seems to contradict what the other posters experience is, as this guy's dealer/service center has heard of it.....although I question the validity as they seem to want to reflash the chip in the CDI. If it was that easy, then why would Kawi be replacing CDIs and tachs ad infinitum? Sounds to me like he may not have gotten someone at Kawi that deals with either very technical questions from service reps, or someone in warranty claims. In any case, a manufacturer will HARDLY volunteer failure data, especially on their most popular selling product!

In any case, NHTSA rarely gets involved unless there is a substantive claim that safety is compromised and people are about to or have already been hurt, but I guess if he's willing to go direct, can't hurt to try.

I assure you, Kawi DOES know about the tach issue! There have been many, many claims made all over the internet, and if even half are true, there's a problem. There can be no doubt for me, based on how many the two local shops have replaced recently (since the daily temperature started to get into the 80s+).

[randomwalk101]

Originally Posted by g21-30

Have you checked the thread title recently? Do we have to repeat it in each post? What are the symptoms of a bad CDI? When it heats up, it sends false/bad signals to what other part(s) on the bike? Yep, you guessed it! One of those parts is the tach!

Have i checked? I started the damn post man!!!

Your original message talks about TACH replacement (OEM and secondary, post #127)...is IRRELEVANT. The issue is CDI malfunction sending an improper signal (absolute difference) to be DISPLAYS by the tach. So even if the OEM tach is off, it will be off regardless with same amount. So when the CDI send another signal (different signal), that "off" tach will still be off PLUS the difference sent by the CDI (new signal).

for example at 70mph on 6 gears:

CDI send to tach to displays: 7000rpm (cold) or 8000rpm (hot)

OEM tach (if it's off for example) will display: 8000 (cold) or 9000 (hot)
CORRECT tach: will display: 7000rpm (cold) or 8000rpm (hot)

As you can see, the difference (absolute) is 1000rpm in cold/hot state...doesn't matter which tach..the difference will still be the same. Your original message of changing the tach is again....IRRELEVANT.

If the OEM tach off by one million...then in cold it will be 1 million, in hot it will be 1 million + 1000rpm.

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by g21-30

It is very relevant. If you don't have a baseline cold (50 MPH @ 6000 RPM), how do you know hot (50 MPH @ 7000 RPM) is a problem?

When I started riding this afternoon, the bike was cold and registered 50 MPH @ 6000 RPM. After warming up, it varied between 7000-7500 RPM at 50 MPH. As the rain showers got closer and the external temp cooled down, guess what? Yep, the CDI cooled off and went back to 50 MPH @ 6000 RPM.

BINGO.....we have a winner as it applies to the CDI being bad!

If the tach is bad, as John pointed out, it will be consistently bad.

I have slaved in another tach to the other coil with my local shop, got the CDI to heat fail, and the factory tach be 'off' while the slave tach on the other coil was 'good'. Didn't make sense, so we swapped coils, no difference! Tried different coils, no difference! Swapped CDI, and the problem changed. Conclusion=CDI BAD.

[randomwalk101]

Originally Posted by Banzai

BINGO.....we have a winner!

the tach is a dumb displays...it displays whatever teh cdi signal sends to it...hot cdi rpm will be up, cold down.
changing the tach if the tach is off, the number will just shift around...in same increment. Bingo my butt

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

the tach is a dumb displays...it displays whatever teh cdi signal sends to it...hot cdi rpm will be up, cold down.
changing the tach if the tach is off, the number will just shift around...in same increment. Bingo my butt

Read the WHOLE post!

Unless heat is also affecting the discriminator circuit in the TACH that counts the pulses!

I agree with you, though. The tach is stupid, and only displays what it's told. Regardless of how far a given tach may be biased high or low, the hot vs. cold indications as absolutes are what you're looking for.

The root cause is the CDI. I disagreed when the shop wanted to replace my factory tach, and so did the service manager. Kawi over ruled him and shipped a tach for warranty service. That's their game of lather, rinse, repeat!

The end result is the same, the CDI is not tolerant of heat, ambient (and in some cases even electronic induced), and causes different indications on the tach when comparing hot vs cold operation. This has been verified time and time again.

Originally Posted by g21-30

I was repeating what I read in the post. As I stated, I haven't checked the schematic.

A tach can never be in series with the spark, or it will become, very briefly, the spark plug!

[randomwalk101]

Originally Posted by Banzai

Unless heat is also affecting the discriminator circuit in the TACH that counts the pulses!

Think whatever you want, but the end result is the same, the CDI is not tolerant of heat, ambient (and in some cases even electronic induced), and causes different indications on the tach when comparing hot vs cold operation. This has been verified time and time again.



A tach can never be in series with the spark, or it will become, very briefly, the spark plug!

it's not the tach..it's the CDI..that's why I said tach (like g1g2 mention) is irrelevant. AT first, I thought it was the tach/speedo sensor so I swapped it out with a friend's 09 250...the number just shift because the tach error, but the DIFFERENCE is the same.

Mine OEM: cold (70mph in 6 gears) is 7K rpm
hot : 8K rpm

after swap: cold(70mph in 6 gears) is 7.5k rpm
hot: 8.5k rpm

the diff. is still 1000rpm. It got dark and I didn't get a chance to swap the CDI. His bike doesn't exhibit the cold/hot symptoms as mine though...at least not yet (he just bought it). I need to get together with him again to do more testing (if he's willing)

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

it's not the tach..it's the CDI..that's why I said tach (like g1g2 mention) is irrelevant. AT first, I thought it was the tach/speedo sensor so I swapped it out with a friend's 09 250...the number just shift because the tach error, but the DIFFERENCE is the same.

Mine OEM: cold (70mph in 6 gears) is 7K rpm
hot : 8K rpm

after swap: cold(70mph in 6 gears) is 7.5k rpm
hot: 8.5k rpm

the diff. is still 1000rpm. It got dark and I didn't get a chance to swap the CDI. His bike doesn't exhibit the cold/hot symptoms as mine though...at least not yet (he just bought it). I need to get together with him again to do more testing (if he's willing)

OK, we're cross posting here! And I have been editing to make my posts clear, as my mind is moving faster than my fingers, and what I was trying to say was getting lost.

SORRY

I agree, and ALWAYS HAVE!!!!! It's a series of bad CDIs.

I, too, have done a swap with a "known good" good CDI and gotten the problem to go away 100%

[noche_caliente]

pssst... did you see the post from kf above?

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by noche_caliente

pssst... did you see the post from kf above?

pssst......did you see my answer to your post right under it?

[noche_caliente]

Originally Posted by Banzai

pssst......did you see my answer to your post right under it?

the other quote threw me

I've got the warranty form in front of me, so I've been following this thread trying to decide what to do about buying the extended warranty - I hadn't planned to do it, but it's been making me think about it with this issue that they don't want to acknowledge...

[kkim]

Originally Posted by noche_caliente

the other quote threw me

I've got the warranty form in front of me, so I've been following this thread trying to decide what to do about buying the extended warranty - I hadn't planned to do it, but it's been making me think about it with this issue that they don't want to acknowledge...

so buy a few spare CDIs off ebay... wouldn't that be cheaper than the extended warranty?

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by noche_caliente

the other quote threw me

I've got the warranty form in front of me, so I've been following this thread trying to decide what to do about buying the extended warranty - I hadn't planned to do it, but it's been making me think about it with this issue that they don't want to acknowledge...

I would encourage you to file a warranty claim and see if you can get it addressed, if it has not already expired. I did not buy the extended warranty hoping for a fix, though.

The NHTSA gets data on warranty claims straight from manufacturers and service centers (required by law) based on claims during the warranty period. For them to look into anything automatically, there have to be sufficient claims vs. the number of units sold. Each unreported problem makes it that much harder to use the muscle of government regulation to make the product correct, and helps the manufacturer shift the burden onto the unsuspecting consumer.

That REALLY ticks me off, since Kawi knows all about the problem.

I finally got to the point where I am SURE it's a bad CDI because I put in a known good one. The CDI I have in the bike now only bobbles the indication around 9K rpm, and I can live with that, as it has been verified to be the ONLY issue. Other than that, I personally did not opt to extend my warranty hoping for a lasting fix.

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by kkim

so buy a few spare CDIs off ebay... wouldn't that be cheaper than the extended warranty?

Yes, unless they also have the dreaded heat soak disease!

They're probably like vintage French rifles......barely used and only dropped once!

[kkim]

lol...can't be any worse than some coming fresh from the factory. either you have the problem or you don't... luck of the draw, it seems.

look what I just got off ebay, just in case I become one of the unlucky ones. think it will work?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...K%3AMEWNX%3AIT

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by kkim

lol...can't be any worse than some coming fresh from the factory. either you have the problem or you don't... luck of the draw, it seems.

look what I just got off ebay, just in case I become one of the unlucky ones. think it will work?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...K%3AMEWNX%3AIT

Don't know. I thought that the pre gen ones had some different wiring configuration? Might have to make an adapter harness if you don't want to end up doing a permanent wiring mod.

In any case, I'm skeptical about the different spark curve, too, until I do a little more reading.

Edit to add: I'm still trying to get a known bad CDI so I can open it up and hook some old school test equipment up to it and see what it's doing. Hopefully it's not pottted inside and I can get to the circuit board and components without destroying something. In any case, I have 'access' to that sort of equipment, so if it becomes difficult, I can enlist 'professional' assistance! (One of the perks of working with some of the Navy's finest electronics techs)

[kkim]

yes, as I read in some other post, some are using the pregen units due to them not having this problem. The advance curve is something I'm concerned with as well. also, it has a higher rev limit than our bikes.... hmmm sounds exactly what a rev box does for my dirt bike.

we'll see if/when my CDI goes out. my bike is out of warranty, btw.

[noche_caliente]

so, would installing some sort of cooking fan like in a computer case and/or a heat sink help to keep the thing cool?

[Alex]

Potentially, but only if there's a path for the heat to escape. Putting a fan right on it as is without opening anything else up won't likely do much good; it's a pretty tiny area in there with no place for the hot air to be blown to right now...

[randomwalk101]

Originally Posted by Alex

Potentially, but only if there's a path for the heat to escape. Putting a fan right on it as is without opening anything else up won't likely do much good; it's a pretty tiny area in there with no place for the hot air to be blown to right now...

Yeager dude put a computer fan on top of the CDI and it helps.

[Alex]

He says it helps. I'm not buying it.

[k4m1k4z3k]

liquid cool it

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by Alex

He says it helps. I'm not buying it.

Me, either. His fan was placed right on top of the CDI, with minimal draw and minimal exhaust over the unit, so overall almost negligible airflow. There is no where for the hot air to go once heated over the unit. Even if it helps initially very quickly you end up circulating just hot air that keeps getting hotter. You end up right where you started, but have the added expense and hastle of having some silly fan under your butt. That's called a zero sum gain.

The only way it would work would be to cut two holes, one intake that goes over the CDI, and one exhaust to get rid of the heated air.

As I said before on this post, I'm not going to volunteer to cut holes in my bike just to see if it works!

Originally Posted by k4m1k4z3k

liquid cool it

Nice idea. Trouble is that most units start having issues when ambient temp is in the mid 80s+. You'd have to plumb some sort of stand alone system (then there's the issue of resivoir, pump, wiring, and heat transfer plates and a radiator), as the bike's coolant runs WAY too hot and would fry the unit quickly. It would only work if there was constant airflow on the stand alone radiator below 80ish degrees F, which means it would be a lot of effort and would not work in stop and go traffic most of the spring, summer, and half the fall (riding season).

[Rayme]

I said it in the other thread but since this is the official discussion here, my Ninja got the overheating cdi issue. However I only noticed it ONCE and it was when it was very hot and humid outside, (over 30celcius). My bike is out of warrenty. It sucks but it's not a big issue for me since it's rarely that hot here...Ironicaly my vacuum cleaner overheated the same day, ROFL.

Banzai: It might be a better solution to change the location of the CDI. Modifications to the wires would enable you to put in in a location with constant airflow instead of stuck inside the tail!

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by Rayme

I said it in the other thread but since this is the official discussion here, my Ninja got the overheating cdi issue. However I only noticed it ONCE and it was when it was very hot and humid outside, (over 30celcius). My bike is out of warrenty. It sucks but it's not a big issue for me since it's rarely that hot here...Ironicaly my vacuum cleaner overheated the same day, ROFL.

Banzai: It might be a better solution to change the location of the CDI. Modifications to the wires would enable you to put in in a location with constant airflow instead of stuck inside the tail!

I hear ya! Life conspires against us every day!

I'm down to a purely indication problem, so I'm leaving mine alone. My long term plan is to get one of the aftermarket semi-programable units from overseas and try that out.

I have been emailing quite a few people lately who have been using them and they all report that they have no issues in their rain and heat and humidity with the aftermarket units in the stock location........so that only makes me more sure that Kawi spec'd crappy chips in their CDI units.

Originally Posted by g21-30

This was one thing I was considering doing by moving it near the front of the radiator. Then you run into the potential problem of water entering the ignitor.

Also, those who have the problem and have removed the air box, might be able to fashion a ram air setup to force air into the tail section. I think that would create a flow of air over and out. Thoughts?

I probably should just let the dealer correct mine, since I have the 4 year Kawi Good Times Warranty after the standard 1 year one.

My GOD, man! Go get Kawi to give you a new part (if you can stand the shop and their time line)! It's what you paid for with that warranty. On the other hand, if you're ONLY getting an indication issue (like mine) then you have to decide if it really matters to you.

I would point out that unless each and every one with this issue reports it to Kawi and forces a fix, it won't get fixed until the current run of parts runs dry and they do a spec upgrade and don't have to pay to fix the rest of the broken bikes out there. They hide behind "Specifications subject to change without notice".

As to a ram scoop, sounds like a neat idea, but you'll still be getting air from through the radiator and across the hot engine, and you still need somewhere for it to go once it goes under the seat and into the tail. Pretty tight area under the seat for duct work, too, as the CDI is pretty much right under your butt by the trunk lock.

[Rayme]

Originally Posted by Banzai

I hear ya! Life conspires against us every day!

I'm down to a purely indication problem, so I'm leaving mine alone. My long term plan is to get one of the aftermarket semi-programable units from overseas and try that out.

I have been emailing quite a few people lately who have been using them and they all report that they have no issues in their rain and heat and humidity with the aftermarket units in the stock location........so that only makes me more sure that Kawi spec'd crappy chips in their CDI units.

If im not mistaken, they are using Denso parts, which is also the same supplier for electronic parts toyota and subaru uses. It's sad cause usually they make top notch parts !

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by Rayme

If im not mistaken, they are using Denso parts, which is also the same supplier for electronic parts toyota and subaru uses. It's sad cause usually they make top notch parts !

That's why I would love to get ahold of one to take apart and test. I have access to equipment that can dynamically test the circuits while subjecting it to various thermal and electronic loads.

[kevins_garage]

Originally Posted by noche_caliente

hey guys - just found this post over on kf

That's my post - I just added a complaint form to make it super easy to submit a complaint to NHTSA.

If you guys are experiencing the "tach issue", it would be a big help if you would fill out the complaint form and mail it in. The more complaint forms they get, the more likely they are to open a defect investigation.

This has to be a "grass roots" type effort by us - owners of these 2008-2009 Ninja 250's - no one else is going to do it for us and Kawasaki sure isn't going to step up to the plate and take care of us out of the goodness of their hearts. Please spread the word and if possible post up in the thread over at kawiforums (http://www.kawiforums.com/ninja-250r...ml#post1688732) if/when you have mailed your complaint form so we can kind of keep track of things and see what happens.

[Rayme]

I found the Canadian website where "Transport Canada" is pretty much the NHTSA equivalent here. The safety issue here would be obviously, power loss on the highway, specially during passing menoeuvers.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/defe....aspx?lang=fra

I will post a compaint once I can re-confirm my issue, if theres any other Canadian owners with that issue please report it too!

-remy

[randomwalk101]

Also write to motorcycle magazine. They'll punish bad review, kawi will panic and fix their craps. Perhaps this is more effective since it hits their $$$ pocket.
Posted via Mobile Device

[noche_caliente]

great to see you join us here Kevin

[randomwalk101]

okay, installed another cdi courtesy from the dealer/kawi corp (pulled some strings)...no more cdi issue as far as i can tell now...let's hope this is the end of it as I'm 2 months out of warranty.

[robb08]

Ive had this same problem. horribly annoying. the power loss is subtle so you may have it but not quite notice it. ive had the dealer put in a new CDI. and my problem(almost immediately) continued..
bike is currently sitting in the shop, waiting to get "fixed" again..

[noche_caliente]

ok guys - do you think that the sudden seeming gain in power combined with the lowish gas mileage could be the cdi for me as well? since I live in the mountains, I can't really judge by rpms, as different inclines at the same speed are going to yield different RPMs... I could try and find somewhere flat to test it though if you think that might be it....

[Alex]

Originally Posted by noche_caliente

I can't really judge by rpms, as different inclines at the same speed are going to yield different RPMs... I could try and find somewhere flat to test it though if you think that might be it....

Flat or inclined won't have anything to do with different RPMs, as long as you're in the same gear. If the clutch is engaged, the speed of the motor is directly connected to however fast the rear wheel is turning, coupled with the current gear selected; that's it.

[kevins_garage]

Originally Posted by Alex

Flat or inclined won't have anything to do with different RPMs, as long as you're in the same gear. If the clutch is engaged, the speed of the motor is directly connected to however fast the rear wheel is turning, coupled with the current gear selected; that's it.

Yep - I noticed mine after a 30 minute freeway ride - one minute I was going ~70 in 6th gear at ~8000 rpms and the next minute I was turning ~9000 rpms at the same speed in the same gear. I didn't look away for more than a few seconds and the tach crept even higher, indicating over 9500 rpms at the same speed in the same gear. There was no real consistency to the erroneous RPM reading, other than it was always higher than it should have been. It seemed to fluctuate from as few as 500, up to almost 2000, RPMs higher then what the tach would indicate when the bike was cold and driven at the same speed in the same gear.

I do a high percentage of highway riding, so I find myself droning along at ~70+mph a lot - it's real easy to notice a tach that is reading bogus RPM's. When I cruise the surface streets and am in stop and go traffic, I don't pay as much attention to the tach (gotta watch all the a-hole drivers all around me ).

[Alex]

I've been looking for that same discrepancy on mine, perhaps hoping to notice it as an explanation for low fuel economy that I get from time to time (in the low 30's for some rides, believe it or not). But unfortunately, or fortunately, I guess, I've never seen any RPM variations like that. Hot or cold, a certain speed on the highway translates into a certain RPM showing up on my tach.

[noche_caliente]

Originally Posted by Alex

Flat or inclined won't have anything to do with different RPMs, as long as you're in the same gear. If the clutch is engaged, the speed of the motor is directly connected to however fast the rear wheel is turning, coupled with the current gear selected; that's it.

well in that case, I may very well have the CDI issue going on then - I just assumed that I wasn't always seeing 6300 rpm at 40 in 4th gear due to the change in the grade of the road.... I'll have to make more of a note of it now

[kevins_garage]

Originally Posted by g21-30

Always try to get your measurements in 6th gear. 50 MPH (speedometer indicated) should read 6000 RPM COLD and WARM will be anything higher than 6000 RPM, if you have the CDI/Ignitor problem. In my case, I haven't noticed a performance change.

It's not so much the gear that matters, just that you are checking "tach indicated" RPMs against the SAME speed in the SAME gear, COLD vs. WARM.

If the tach reads a different RPM for the same speed, same gear when the bike is COLD vs. WARM, then there's a problem. How much of a problem is unknown. It seems like some are reporting driveability issues while others just think it is an bad signal to the tach and nothing to worry about.

If anyone has this issue (in or out of warranty) on an 08 or 09 250, I strongly urge you to file a vehicle safety complaint with NHTSA - I put up a post at kawiforums in the 250 section with a mostly filled out complaint form - just print it, add your name and vehicle info, and mail it in.