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Old March 19th, 2013, 10:18 AM   #1
mgentz
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250R NA Build - Ultimate

NA = Naturally Aspirated

I thought I would start this thread instead of always replying to the BEET Camshaft thread. http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=122108

I would invite @tubarney to post here as well since he and I are building similar bikes.

Mine will be a 265 cc, 12.5:1 advertised monster. The head has been ported by APE, the cams have been welded and upgraded by Web cams and the crank is being ultra-lightened and balanced by Falicon. In addition, all systems on the bike are being upgraded, brakes, suspension, fuel, ignition, etc. I will post those items here as well, but it should be easy enough to sort through.

With that, I will begin pic posting [heavily] once my crank arrives. Until then, I will just try to post my small updates.

Thanks to anyone who cares.
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Old March 19th, 2013, 11:10 AM   #2
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Sounds like Fun! Keep us updated on your progress.
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Old March 19th, 2013, 11:20 AM   #3
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Old March 19th, 2013, 11:34 AM   #4
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Sounds like an awesome project!
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Old March 19th, 2013, 11:51 AM   #5
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I've been reading of your adventures in the BEET thread. I'm interested in how the engine responds to a lighter/balanced crank. Are you planning to lighten the flywheel as well? Oil cooler and thermobob to compensate for more heat?

Any consideration of doing an EU-spec EFI conversion to combine the fuel and ignition adjustment into a power commander like Shadowwolf1117 did on his race bike?

Just curious Can't wait to read about your progress.
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Old March 19th, 2013, 11:57 AM   #6
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You're a noob... You should just get a bigger bike... you're just wasting your money... You have no Idea what you're doing... You're going to kill yourself... Why don't you wedge a ninja 1000 motor in there instead? The Ninja wasn't meant to handle so much power...


Now that that's said and done with... Really looking forward to this I wonder how much hp you can get after these upgrades... Also, how reliable will all these parts be? Considering getting bigger throttle bodies? i.e. those off the Ninja 300... Good luck!!!
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Old March 19th, 2013, 01:11 PM   #7
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You're a noob... You should just get a bigger bike... you're just wasting your money... You have no Idea what you're doing... You're going to kill yourself... Why don't you wedge a ninja 1000 motor in there instead? The Ninja wasn't meant to handle so much power...


Now that that's said and done with... Really looking forward to this I wonder how much hp you can get after these upgrades... Also, how reliable will all these parts be? Considering getting bigger throttle bodies? i.e. those off the Ninja 300... Good luck!!!
thanks.

I will be dynoing the bike after the initial break in. I am taking an educated guess on fueling and using the stock ignition map initially. After break in, these will change. @RacerX has been very helpful with ignition ideas, and I got the jettingpro to play with.

As for reliability, these should be just as if not more reliable than stock. the compression is only ~1 point higher and I'm staying with NA. The motor (valve springs, seats, crank, etc.) has been updated and will be religiously checked along the build to ensure proper clearances. @tubarney and I have already discussed the need to leave the rod bearings at the loose end of the tolerances to allow for extra oil. Again, adding reliability.

As for fueling, I have decided to keep the carbs stock sized for now. I don't think the CR carbs are as good in the low-mid range and I would like to keep the throttle response clean and crisp. FI is out due to cost and weight. Besides, a well tuned carb beats FI...just ask the dirtbike folks or car engine builders. That being said....there is always room for improvement and I may try some things later. @tubarney has CR carbs and he can let us know his thoughts.
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Old March 19th, 2013, 02:49 PM   #8
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Old March 19th, 2013, 10:25 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgentz View Post
thanks.

I will be dynoing the bike after the initial break in. I am taking an educated guess on fueling and using the stock ignition map initially. After break in, these will change. @RacerX has been very helpful with ignition ideas, and I got the jettingpro to play with.

As for reliability, these should be just as if not more reliable than stock. the compression is only ~1 point higher and I'm staying with NA. The motor (valve springs, seats, crank, etc.) has been updated and will be religiously checked along the build to ensure proper clearances. @tubarney and I have already discussed the need to leave the rod bearings at the loose end of the tolerances to allow for extra oil. Again, adding reliability.

As for fueling, I have decided to keep the carbs stock sized for now. I don't think the CR carbs are as good in the low-mid range and I would like to keep the throttle response clean and crisp. FI is out due to cost and weight. Besides, a well tuned carb beats FI...just ask the dirtbike folks or car engine builders. That being said....there is always room for improvement and I may try some things later. @tubarney has CR carbs and he can let us know his thoughts.
sounds like you really know what you're doing here. Looking forward to the results and hopefully emulating it in the future.
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Old March 20th, 2013, 05:09 AM   #10
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ok. Where am I today:

Item purchased and/or installed:

Suspension
Forks redone and optimized by Ed Sorbo of Lindemann Engineering
Ed also added fork drains at the bottom of the forks so I can do oil changes w/o removing the forks.
Penske triple with LE valving and short reservoir hose (will mount to battery box)
springs front and rear are based on my weight and riding style. interesting note here is that throughout my discussions with Ed, traditional sag numbers DO NOT apply to the 250. I can discuss more later.....

Ignition
JettingPro
Map selector switch installed
Launch control installed
NGK CR9 plugs

Engine
APE Ported head with +1mm intake valves
Falicon Ultra Light Crank mods
Wiseco 12.5:1 pistons
WEB cams both intake and exhaust (special grind not listed on site)
Lots of new seals, gaskets and consumables (engine will be basically new)

Fuel/Intake
Factory Pro Jetting
Factory Pro Hand adjustable air screws
Modified STOCK airbox
Pipercross filter
Backfire screen removed

Exhaust
Area P full standard with 12" carbon muffler
I will have to do some checking here to see how the pipe lines up to the port, but thoughts are that the increased back pressure from the smaller pipe should benefit the little 250. Otherwise, I might have to mod or get a custom.
New Area P header gaskets

Other Fun Stuff
Motion Pro VR Throttle (plan to run the 45mm or 50mm cam)
Motion Pro Right Cluster Switch
Alien Motion Battery (4 Cell, weighs about 1 lb, better than ballistic (don't like them))
Heated Grips...after all I want to be comfortable
Pirelli Rosso II tires 110/140
@rojoracing53 modified rear brake rotor (shaved off 13 oz or so!!!)
@rojoracing53 modified rear brake hanger (now captive i.e. wont fall off during tire changes)
Stainless bolts instead of the @%#^y stell ones where I could easily replace
Repainted lower half of the engine case
New sprockets with a 520 non-oring chain (want to say 15/43 but I would need to go check)
Silicon radiator hoses (green )
Removed the thermostat
LP high performance coolant (no mixing)
Fender eliminator (done a while ago)
fully safety wired and past WERA/AMA specs
SSR preload caps
WC clip-ons
Secondary fuel filter


I think that's about all.....but I will let you know.
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Old March 20th, 2013, 05:24 AM   #11
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And just like that your bike has surpassed mine in awesomeness

Thanks for the mention on the part mods but come on man where are the pics of this thing I'm sure we all want to see what you've come up with. Also I started out with the 45mm cam but swapped to the 50mm later because you can never go to short on a 250. Hell with its lack of power a toggle switch would be fine
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Old March 20th, 2013, 05:29 AM   #12
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That is the wildest 250 ever. Makes my bike seem stock.
Glad the motor is going into a worthy machine. You should start a blog on the bike alone.

Why are you taking out the thermostat? I have never see that do any good. Engines like to run hot and are set up to operate at a consistent temp.
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Old March 20th, 2013, 05:30 AM   #13
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More info on the rear caliper mod please. A pic would be awesome.
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Old March 20th, 2013, 06:37 AM   #14
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That all sounds great and I wish u good success
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Old March 20th, 2013, 08:01 AM   #15
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I'll right something up when I get this crank get next week.

My bike will be pretty much the same. You have me on the rear shock and the larger 265cc & 1mm valves but other than that we will pretty much have the same set up with a few different company's involved of course. Beet vs Web for example.
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Old March 20th, 2013, 08:10 AM   #16
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That is the wildest 250 ever. Makes my bike seem stock.
Glad the motor is going into a worthy machine. You should start a blog on the bike alone.

Why are you taking out the thermostat? I have never see that do any good. Engines like to run hot and are set up to operate at a consistent temp.
Extra Cooling. Most of the time I run at high RPM's and don't drive city streets. This bike will also get track time.

However, I may put it back in if needed...it's easy to do so.
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Old March 20th, 2013, 08:11 AM   #17
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I'll right something up when I get this crank get next week.

My bike will be pretty much the same. You have me on the rear shock and the larger 265cc & 1mm valves but other than that we will pretty much have the same set up with a few different company's involved of course. Beet vs Web for example.
werd.
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Old March 20th, 2013, 08:14 AM   #18
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But really. This is awesome. Excited to see the progress.
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Old March 20th, 2013, 08:18 AM   #19
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More info on the rear caliper mod please. A pic would be awesome.
I got pics from Jason as he was working. Please see below:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg hanger bevel.jpg (136.4 KB, 66 views)
File Type: jpg hanger slot.jpg (120.3 KB, 55 views)
File Type: jpg rotor and hanger.jpg (165.6 KB, 68 views)
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Old March 20th, 2013, 08:19 AM   #20
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And just like that your bike has surpassed mine in awesomeness

Thanks for the mention on the part mods but come on man where are the pics of this thing I'm sure we all want to see what you've come up with. Also I started out with the 45mm cam but swapped to the 50mm later because you can never go to short on a 250. Hell with its lack of power a toggle switch would be fine
soon grasshopper. I got other stuff right now, but I WILL be posting plenty of pics.
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Old March 20th, 2013, 08:38 AM   #21
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Wow! This is going to be epic! and I just noticed you're from Milwaukee!
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Old March 20th, 2013, 09:22 AM   #22
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What class of racing?
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Old March 20th, 2013, 08:05 PM   #23
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What class of racing?
I'm pretty sure there isn't a class of racing in USA/Australia that either mine or Mark's would be eligible for.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Quote:
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Why are you taking out the thermostat? I have never see that do any good. Engines like to run hot and are set up to operate at a consistent temp.
I would second that x. You should install a thermostat that opens up at a higher temp if anything. Then a thermo-bob. This is the ideal set-up. I doubt you will have any problems with the cooling system on this bike. If anything it runs cold stock and needs to spend an hour on the dyno just to warm up to temp. Plus I don't think they change it for the 300.

If you do run into problems which I doubt it. The best thing to do is the above set-up and run a smaller second radiator that Beet makes.
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Old March 20th, 2013, 08:31 PM   #24
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A photo of what to expect when you get your crankshaft back Mike. Yours will still have the sprocket for the balance shaft.

I have figured out that you can run without your balance shaft. What you need to do is balance your crankshaft to a Balance Factor that will keep the vibrations out of the most used RPM range.

A good example is a race bike that doesn't spend anytime below 8k revs. You can balance the crankshaft to a BF that will make it vibrate down low in the rev range but not at 8k or above.

No good for a bike that spends anytime at all on the street.
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File Type: png 12123.png (104.4 KB, 34 views)
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Old March 21st, 2013, 08:12 AM   #25
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I have asked about the balance factor.

Got the MP VR throttle and switch installed last night. I used the 50mm cam and followed @rojoracing53 thread for installation. Thanks Jason!
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Old March 21st, 2013, 09:09 AM   #26
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There is a small design flaw in the starter bottom switch where the return spring is to stiff and over time it'll cause the plastic mounting plate to fracture. MP promptly sent me a new one and I crushed the spring so I don't have to push as hard thus reducing the stress on the plate. It may have just been the one I received but the way its design I'd say don't take the chance and weaken your spring before you have any problems. When you take it apart its not complicated but be sure not to lose any of the tiny parts.
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Old March 21st, 2013, 10:02 AM   #27
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Hmm...mine doesn't seem that tough. How hard was it to push?

I will be bleeding the brakes tonight and flushing with fresh RBF-600 my favorite fluid. After that, who knows....
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Old March 21st, 2013, 10:11 AM   #28
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Not super hard just harder, after modding its just a little easier then stock.
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Old March 21st, 2013, 10:38 AM   #29
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Just curious, why didn't you go with APE to lighten your crank?

I'm having Jay do my 74 CB550 crank right now.
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Old March 21st, 2013, 03:24 PM   #30
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They could not do a 2 cylinder....I asked 4 times.
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Old March 21st, 2013, 03:27 PM   #31
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Falicon will not reveal their balance factor but they said they can tune it to have zero vibration from 7 - 15k rpms.

I also asked about the crank in tubarney picture. They said that there is no way that crank balanced out unless the rods and pistons were substantially lighter.
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Old March 21st, 2013, 09:55 PM   #32
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Here's what they are going to do with your balance factor.

There is no way to keep the factory balance factor if you lighten the crankshaft without taking the same amount of weight off the rods/pistons. Or a percentage of that weight. This where is BF comes in.

Exactly what they confirmed by saying that.

What they are going to do is lighten it. Then balance it to a factor that will stop the vibrations between those revs ranges because there no way to balance it back to factory without making it the same weight again.

It turns out I'm not getting it knife edge as it will put the crank out by a lot and the only way to get it back to factory balance factor is to fill it with mallory until it becomes the same weight again.

Which is pointless and expensive. Plus knife-edging is only beneficial if your crank sits in oil. Which ours does not.

Basically, there balance machine works by giving them a plot of the forces between 0 and 15k revs. They will balance it to a BF that keeps the forces(vibrations) to a min in the selected rev range. You can't stop these vibrations no matter how well it is balanced. Just make them happen in a certain rev range.

This is also why they said it was a no no on the removal of the balance shaft. You would need to experiment in the real world to find a balance factor that would stop it from happening in the selected rev range.. They can't calculate this with their machine. They would have the information for common/expensive race bikes (GSXR1000) but not our little ninja.

Also, you might have trouble finding someone who can fit the crankshaft onto their balance machine. The journals are not wide enough.

Anyone with a Serdi balance machine that uses nylon v-blocks will not be able to balance the crankshaft. Unless they have run into this problem before and have customs lying around.

Not to mention. The first d***head that balanced it did not calculate the Factory Balance factor!!! So make sure they do this.

Anyway, I hope these vibrations you experience below 7k aren't too serious because some can prevent you from holding on the handle bars.
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Old March 21st, 2013, 10:26 PM   #33
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I had a modded dt50 motor stroked out to 72cc then flywheel completly removed and replaced with a 1/4 oz aluminum plate with a slot for laser pickup, it was never rebalanced. You'd have to stand and keep your ass of the seat and hold onto the bars with only two finger while you gridded for your race because anything in contact with the bike would go numb. Once rolling you would rev it untill it vibrated so bad it felt like the piston was going to shoot through the tank then count to 3, then shift that bike was one of the most insane machines I've ever ridden, I only wish it didn't put my whole body to sleep from vibrating so damn much. I've never heard anything can anywhere near the speed that bike would rev in neutral.
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Old March 22nd, 2013, 02:22 AM   #34
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^^Thats exactly what I was referring to rojo. Thanks for the rear caliper mod btw. Frustrating doesn't even begin to describe putting the rear wheel back on, at least for me. This will be one of the first things I do when I stop stuffing around with the engine.

The balance shaft should cancel most of it out, I doubt they would of recommended it to Mike if it wouldn't. Every crank is different so we will have to wait and find out.

The crank in the picture above can be balanced with the stock pistons and rods. You would just have to drill holes in the counter weights and fill it with mallory. Which aint cheap. Also, it would depend on what Balance factor you would be running in order to achieve a vibe free rpm range. This balance factor would change when you remove the balance shaft.
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Old March 22nd, 2013, 02:39 AM   #35
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Why are they changing the BF from 50%? Is it because you lightened it?

I have light rods by Carillo. (first set they ever made for a 250 ninja. and JE pistons. The pistons are among the first batch made. Between the two it is about the stock weight and they used 50% as the Balance factor.

We are in uncharted terretory with this motor. I have bike number 00769 and have been having parts made since 2008. In 2008 there was nothing. I paid RD charges to make head gaskets. I had to convert to first gen ignition. And had to wait for parts to start coming out.

Now we have all sort of cool aftermarket parts. But there are not that many people doing major engine work.

I have talked to another shop about balance. They just needed the factor and the crank needs to be 3/4 inch throw or the have to make custom weight bags.
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Old March 22nd, 2013, 02:57 AM   #36
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I haven't touch it from stock. The reason is when you spin it up it is closer to dead on (0) with 100% than it is with a 50% balance factor. A lot closer.

v6's and v8's use 50%. These cranks have perfect primary and secondary balance. Ninja 250 does not. This is why I'm thinking 100%. I guess I will find out the hard way.

This is the same reason as why I am not knife edging it. Because this would make it 2 far off with 100% to balance it without a sh** load of mallory

Any crankshaft that can not be folded in half and the the main journals and crank pins all line up needs bob weighs to be balanced. Inline 4 for example don't need bob weights(also why you can easily remove balance shafts). Ninja 250 needs bob weights.

What they were trying to say it that they don't have that size (journals too small) and they would need to make some up if it didn't have 3/4 inch throw.
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Old March 22nd, 2013, 03:06 AM   #37
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oh yeah I have the crank at home. The last guy who 'balanced' it didn't touch it. He prob took about a gram off one end. I thought he knife edge one side, but he didn't. It was like that stock.

Also, if you were to lighten the crankshaft without lightening the piston/rods you would need to lower the balance factor.
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Old March 22nd, 2013, 04:50 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by tubarney View Post
oh yeah I have the crank at home. The last guy who 'balanced' it didn't touch it. He prob took about a gram off one end. I thought he knife edge one side, but he didn't. It was like that stock.

Also, if you were to lighten the crankshaft without lightening the piston/rods you would need to lower the balance factor.
so wait...you paid $170 for nuthin?

I will continue my discussions with Falicon. They have balanced thousands of cranks so I trust their judgment. I will keep you updated.
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Old March 22nd, 2013, 05:54 AM   #39
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http://victorylibrary.com/brit/brit-bal-c.htm

I will assume this article is a 180 deg parallel twin. Some twins are not.
A lot to read and I need to read it again and again. But 50% seems to be the bottom line
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Old March 22nd, 2013, 05:55 AM   #40
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exactly. $170 down the drain. Take it to someone with a reputation. I think you will be fine Mike. If I had a company like Falicon in Australia I would not have had to learn how to balance a crank.

So to sum up if the above post is confusing.

The balance factor required to balance a crank is dependant on the weight of the crank counter-weights "web". The more you lighten the webs the less balance factor you need to use to balance it. If you want to balance it with a higher balance factor than you need to make the webs heavier. This is done with mallory as explained above.

Webs can also be knife edge and filled with mallory to look cool, but the overall weight of the crank has not changed.

This photo from Falicon is a 'Heavy' crank. Notice the mallory that fills the hole. Unless the crank sits in oil, the knife edging and mallory are just a waste of cash, unless you change the weight then of course the balance factor.

This is how I know the stock factory balance factor is 100%. There is no mallory in my crank.
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