Hit the crater today...

[corksil]

Had to help a friend hook up a radio antenna way up on the mountain today for a non-profit radio station. Buzzed up the mountain, did the heavy lifting, buzzed down the mountain, then turned around and went up/down again.

Chicken strips to 1/4" on the left and 1/2" on the right side rear.. about an inch in the fronts. I focused on body positioning and trying to be smooth on the bars but I didn't feel my knee touch down. Felt like I was really hanging off the bike, coming into most sweeping hairpins at about 40mph, very hard on the brakes, super high RPM, early apexing then a hard uphill drive out of each turn.

I gotta say... the bike is just not there... the power is non existent. Feels like I'm careening into these turns at 13.5k, screaming out of the turns giving it all I've got on the throttle and the bike just doesn't pull out of the turns hard enough to give me the confidence to tuck harder off to the inside of the bike.

Statistically speaking, you lose 3% of your power for every 1k feet above sea level. My riding was from about 6k feet to 10k feet. So that means I'm losing ~30% of my available horsepower and torque. A few turns I came out of at a steep lean angle and I got on the gas and just didn't have the power to maintain the angle and found myself standing the bike up rapidly because I felt it begin to 'fall away' under me into too tight of a lean. (The same feeling you get when you're buzzing along in a straight line and get hit with a strong gust and the bike just disappears from under you and all of a sudden you're leaning at a crazy angle just to maintain a straight line.)

At the top of the hill my bike would barely idle. I turned up the idle to maintain 1500rpm, and by the time I rode down to 5k feet elevation and stopped, I was idling at 5000rpm.

I hate to say it but I feel like I need more bike. I've modded the 250r to the absolute limits of it's potential, no more power will come from this machine. I REALLY felt like I was absolutely beating on it just to get to the top of the mountain. I came out of town and it was WFO for about 6 minutes in 6th gear. Literally WFO at 13krpm pushing a headwind barely maintaining 86mph for 6 minutes at a time. Am I going to blow this bike up or are they designed to handle this level of abuse?

(I'm anal about maintenance, oil @ 2500, chain lube every 400, chain tension every 1000, but I'm literally asking all that this bike can give, 24/7.)

Feels like she's gonna go "pop" and just seize all of a sudden.

What should I do?

/dear diary

[corksil]

Found a youtube vid of the road, it starts a few switchbacks above where I did, but climbs between about 6.5k feet elevation to 9.8k feet elevation by the time it reaches the 6:30 minute mark. Notice he's riding below the clouds, then up through them, then above them back into the sun. I never take the bike above where he did at 6:30... because the power is literally nonexistent and I'm backfiring massive amounts of unburned fuel on every shift due to the lack of oxygen in the air.

If anyone cares to sit through 6:30 minutes of the video, they'll see the road I'm talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyvMBCNgIow

Oh and the guy was in a slow as$ miata, but still shows the road.

[Singh2jz]

You might just need a different bike for higher elevations. That's a legit excuse to get a new bike right? lol

[Rifleman]

My son spent the summer in Creede, CO 8800ft

Now I'm going to throw some numbers at you, hope it doesn't put you to sleep. 30% of of say 60 horse power is 18 horse power 30% of 140 (a nice used GSX-750R) is 42 horse. So while the % is the same, the numbers are not. you are down to just over 40 horse, while the gixxer is still tickling 100.

Note I'm not hate'n on the 250, just saying it's light on the ponies to start out with and the Gix has a few extra in reserve.

Be ready, things that you just assumed were the case for all bikes, not so much. The 250 is about as agile and responsive to your inputs as you are ever going to get. you tell the bike to lean, it does, you tell it to stop... it does. That narrow rear tire and even more narrow front tire that just lay over at the slightest bar inputs... not so much when you go 190/70ZR17 and 120/65ZR17. Double the weight of the bike. suddenly the little whisper, "over here sweetie, lets go over here"... turns into a forceful, "THIS WAY... OH NO YOU Di'nt"

things don't just double when you double the horse power...they square, and sometimes cube...

and the "get you butt into trouble" rate, that is 2.2 x 10E4

[corksil]

Good points, I agree.

I'm not totally comfortable hanging off the ninja yet, but when I nail a few sweepers smoothly and have a perfect weight transfer without feeling shaky, it feels like I'm ready for a bigger bike. Alas, I will wait until I put another 30k on the clock before upgrading.

The main thing I'm concerned with is braking... can you really haul a literbike down from 100mph with the same ease? Using the motogp style of riding of course.. 'hold it WFO until you see god, then brake like a mofo and mutter prayers mixed with expletives as you hope your front wheel stays tight to the road."

I hear you that more power = more problems. My main concern is getting myself into a new bracket of "trouble" with the law. If the bike only pulls 90mph, that's not doubling the speed limit. But if you're got the power to get her up to 100... 110.. That's loss of license for 6 months, mandatory 30 days in prison, massive fines... a whole new "bracket" of consequences.

I have realized in my years that a key to living a happy life is spending enough time doing what you enjoy that you make palatable the un-enjoyable with an equally balanced "fun/not-fun" ratio. I love motorcycling.. it's just good old fashioned raw unadulterated fun.

Kinda wish I didn't have HP-killing elevation to contend with, but that's life.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by corksil

I hear you that more power = more problems. My main concern is getting myself into a new bracket of "trouble" with the law. If the bike only pulls 90mph, that's not doubling the speed limit. But if you're got the power to get her up to 100... 110.. That's loss of license for 6 months, mandatory 30 days in prison, massive fines... a whole new "bracket" of consequences.

a motorcycle without a rider goes 0 mph. The rider is the one in control. If you don't have the self-control and need a motorcycle with a lower limit, then maybe a large bike isn't right for you.

If you regularly ride at high elevations it might not be a bad idea to have a little more displacement, but if you can't control the speed...

[Ninja Bob]

I keep thinking this is a pothole thread.

[cbinker]

the only way to combat elevation changes is and electric bike.

[Worldtraveller]

A fuel injected motor doesn't have some of the issues of carbs at altitude, so if you want to stick with some thing safer in terms of your willpower, maybe just upgrade to the 300.

Or something a bit more practical, but without the crazy HP of a full out SS, like an SV-650, Ninja 650, CBR500......

My street bike is a CBR 600, and she can get ya in trouble real quick if you don't use the throttle and brakes judiciously (I can do almost 65 mph in first gear....). There's a reason I race, legally, on the track. It keeps me from getting too crazy on the streets, and gives both a good outlet, and more importantly, a place to practice the skills and get the feel of what real speed feels like.

Looks like a fun road, though.

[Rifleman]

well, #1, the rubber tube off the right handle bar... the more you twist that, the faster you go... the less you twist it, the slower... you... you are in control of the bike. there are times to go fast and times to back off. You need to use that thing between your ears before you twist it up.

Oh yes, the brakes on the 1000cc machines will haul them down from WOT. The ones on My TLR are 6 pot dual on 320 cm rotors. That's a lot of grab, it will squash the berries and twig pretty good on a panic stop.

I commute to work every day, heavy Chicago area traffic... I keep it at or near the speed limit, don't get stupid... but (yeah everyone has a big stinky but) I know where I can blow off some steam, give her the spur and let it run... Coupla industrial parks, no kids, no traffic, good sight lines... I can neither confirm nor deny that the front tier comes off the ground *wink* Guess the point there is choose your moments, enjoy them, then ride in such a way as Jonny Law isn't going to get too up in your grill.

so, that being said... time in the saddle (though very important) does not a good or accomplished rider make... As my dad would say, if you practice a mistake, you just get really good at making a mistake.

SO, can i recommend a book, really REALLY good for anyone who likes the feel of the bike, the lean, the thrill but may need some insight into what is going on.

Twist of the Wrist, by Keith Code Yes the same Kieth Code that started and runs California super bike school.

it explains things that you do, but may not know why or how you do them, when you ride. It explains "the perception of speed" as opposed to just speed. Sometime, when you have a long stretch of open empty road... look all the way to the horizon, far out as you can see... how fast are you going? now look down at the road directly in front of your tire (as near the bike as you can)... now how fast are you going? Weird thing is that you are going the same speed both times, it just feels different. Now pick a point way out in front of you, a rock by the side of the road... look at that spot and let your eyes watch it all the way in... it will feel like you are going slow... then speeding up. Perception.

there are many things in that book that will help you understand and then improve your riding skills.

A bigger bike isn't necessarily a bad thing, bigger heavier bikes are very stable, planted, and predictable when set up properly. You shift your body position around on a big bike it doesn't upset the bike as much, little inputs to the bars make minor adjustments. It takes some work to push a tank around, trust me, i drive a tank.

So if you feel the 250 is rung out and you are still looking for more... the 600 will bring that tingle back. The new ones are insanely light, they are in the range where performance tires are being made by most manufactures. You will easily double or even triple your horse power.

just keep your wits about you, or they will be hauling your carcass out of a ravine, an the fun level on that is zero.

[corksil]

Originally Posted by dfox

a motorcycle without a rider goes 0 mph. The rider is the one in control. If you don't have the self-control and need a motorcycle with a lower limit, then maybe a large bike isn't right for you.

If you regularly ride at high elevations it might not be a bad idea to have a little more displacement, but if you can't control the speed...

Yeah, the paradox. I sure wish we had a track...

Originally Posted by Ninja Bob

I keep thinking this is a pothole thread.

Dude I am hungry as hell right now and if I had a pot to cook anything in, and something to cook in that pot, I would dig a hole and build a fire to cook said item in said pot but until then the only thing on my mind is eating something.

Originally Posted by cbinker

the only way to combat elevation changes is and electric bike.

Think that's a little too far out of my budget. An electric motorcycle seems like.... uh... such a let down. No roaring engine, no unburned deliciously smelling hydrocarbons, no exhaust, no fuel smell, no oil odor... just seems like blasphemy on some level.

Originally Posted by Worldtraveller

A fuel injected motor doesn't have some of the issues of carbs at altitude, so if you want to stick with some thing safer in terms of your willpower, maybe just upgrade to the 300.

Or something a bit more practical, but without the crazy HP of a full out SS, like an SV-650, Ninja 650, CBR500......

My street bike is a CBR 600, and she can get ya in trouble real quick if you don't use the throttle and brakes judiciously (I can do almost 65 mph in first gear....). There's a reason I race, legally, on the track. It keeps me from getting too crazy on the streets, and gives both a good outlet, and more importantly, a place to practice the skills and get the feel of what real speed feels like.

Looks like a fun road, though.

I'm thinking I must find a honda cbr600... I'd like a fuel injected one as I was able to tune some decent power out of my EFI honda car in regards to the elevation...

Some new-ish tech would be nice, maybe a 2010 or newer... dang this is almost impossible to find.

[corksil]

Originally Posted by Rifleman

well, #1, the rubber tube off the right handle bar... the more you twist that, the faster you go... the less you twist it, the slower... you... you are in control of the bike. there are times to go fast and times to back off. You need to use that thing between your ears before you twist it up.

Do you ever find yourself just getting carried away and all of a sudden you're flying down the road and you don't realize that there is a speed limit of 25mph even though it's a straight two lane road for the next 5 miles with a clear line of sight? The speed limits here have remained unchanged since the days of horse and carriage. I'd like to say they are "ridiculously low" but I don't want to be "that guy."

Oh yes, the brakes on the 1000cc machines will haul them down from WOT. The ones on My TLR are 6 pot dual on 320 cm rotors. That's a lot of grab, it will squash the berries and twig pretty good on a panic stop.

Oh dear, no berry squashing for me please.

I commute to work every day, heavy Chicago area traffic... I keep it at or near the speed limit, don't get stupid... but (yeah everyone has a big stinky but) I know where I can blow off some steam, give her the spur and let it run... Coupla industrial parks, no kids, no traffic, good sight lines... I can neither confirm nor deny that the front tier comes off the ground *wink* Guess the point there is choose your moments, enjoy them, then ride in such a way as Jonny Law isn't going to get too up in your grill.

Feeling kind of stuck... that's the right mentality.. work it out of your system in a safe place so you aren't hooning on main street asking to get caught. But I feel stuck because it's a paradox, the only real place to open a bike up and carve some turns is up on that crater road. Police don't bother anyone up there at all, ever. I don't recall ever seeing an officer up there in all my years on the island. The paradox being "go to the right place and work it out of your system" but the other side of the coin is "bike not powerful enough to operate at the _right_ place, so working it out of my system is... uhh... kinda difficult.

so, that being said... time in the saddle (though very important) does not a good or accomplished rider make... As my dad would say, if you practice a mistake, you just get really good at making a mistake.

SO, can i recommend a book, really REALLY good for anyone who likes the feel of the bike, the lean, the thrill but may need some insight into what is going on.

Twist of the Wrist, by Keith Code Yes the same Kieth Code that started and runs California super bike school.

it explains things that you do, but may not know why or how you do them, when you ride. It explains "the perception of speed" as opposed to just speed. Sometime, when you have a long stretch of open empty road... look all the way to the horizon, far out as you can see... how fast are you going? now look down at the road directly in front of your tire (as near the bike as you can)... now how fast are you going? Weird thing is that you are going the same speed both times, it just feels different. Now pick a point way out in front of you, a rock by the side of the road... look at that spot and let your eyes watch it all the way in... it will feel like you are going slow... then speeding up. Perception.

there are many things in that book that will help you understand and then improve your riding skills.

I read that book quite a few years ago and have read it multiple times since. Good read.

A bigger bike isn't necessarily a bad thing, bigger heavier bikes are very stable, planted, and predictable when set up properly. You shift your body position around on a big bike it doesn't upset the bike as much, little inputs to the bars make minor adjustments. It takes some work to push a tank around, trust me, i drive a tank.

I think I'll spend a little more time on the 250, but I'm going to more aggressively start looking for the honda SS I've been dreaming of for quite some time.

So if you feel the 250 is rung out and you are still looking for more... the 600 will bring that tingle back. The new ones are insanely light, they are in the range where performance tires are being made by most manufactures. You will easily double or even triple your horse power.

Kind of makes me wonder if a 600 is enough... or if I should just cut to the chase and find a literbike. There are more 1000's for sale than 600's here.. I think people shy away from that much motor because it's such a tiny island.

just keep your wits about you, or they will be hauling your carcass out of a ravine, an the fun level on that is zero.