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Old September 4th, 2018, 07:57 AM   #1
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Old September 4th, 2018, 02:11 PM   #2
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Hey, now, I never said my Honda wasn't big enough, I just alluded to the fact that she was a rusted out pos that I didn't trust lol!

My new Kia Soul should do just fine. I already put together the wish list to be ready for Mid O and possibly Palmer next year.
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Old September 4th, 2018, 05:39 PM   #3
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These bikes aren’t very heavy so you really don’t need a huge tow vehicle. Just follow the vehicle manufacturers recommendations for max towing weight (total weight of bike and trailer) and max tongue weight.
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Old September 4th, 2018, 06:18 PM   #4
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Look at the weight distribution on the car. And realize that it's probably FWD. Wheelying a FWD is bad news. Sure, it can pull the trailer. But it's going to handle like **** and might not be able to panic brake at all.

That said, a single rail trailer with a Ninjette is totally doable for most cars.
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Old September 4th, 2018, 06:30 PM   #5
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I did a little research on it after I got back from my practice time with Chris. The owner's manual for the Soul in the US states that towing isn't recommended. However, everywhere else it's encouraged I ended up finding posts by a dude that has the same as mine (2016 base model 6 speed manual). He found that being conservative with the numbers, it could tow an unbraked trailer up to a little over 1,200 lbs. The only issue I seemed to run into was the class 1 hitch requirement because all of the nice, affordable single bike trailers are for class 2 or above. I thought, no big deal, but then I read that they make it to where you can't get around that to use them with a class 1.

So....a Kendon single bike trailer ended up on my wish list. Their website recommends a class 2 or above, but states that customers have successfully used a class 1
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Old September 4th, 2018, 07:03 PM   #6
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I towed a Uhaul box trailer with 2 bikes behind a Prius once upon a time. It was not an easy haul. Hence my comments. I also did a few more tows with only one bike and it was a good deal easier. I now use a Dodge Grand Caravan. It's still FWD, so similar issues but the longer chassis makes it much easier to balance the load and the extra ponies and braking doesn't hurt either.

If you're towing with a FWD, you're going to want to optimize. Put the heaviest stuff you can in the passenger seat to help keep the front wheels weighted. Toolbox in the foot compartment and a full ice chest in the seat is a good start. Everything else should go as far forward as possible. Find out where your car's gas tank sits. If it's behind the rear axle, consider keeping it below half capacity while towing.

Also, put as little in/on the trailer as you can. Cars are designed to handle normally with the weight inside. Pay attention to load balancing the trailer as well. The usual rule of thumb is a 60/40 balance of weight fore and aft of the trailer axle. For a FWD tow rig, being a little closer to balanced is going to make a big difference in handling. Tongue weight should be low, but not totally negligible. I used to shoot for being able to lift the trailer tongue with one hand.

Oh, and save the speed for the track. Stick to the right lane and follow the "truck" speed limit if one's posted. Your braking/maneuvering will be about on par with theirs.

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Old September 4th, 2018, 07:20 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burphel View Post
I towed a Uhaul box trailer with 2 bikes behind a Prius once upon a time. It was not an easy haul. Hence my comments. I also did a few more tows with only one bike and it was a good deal easier. I now use a Dodge Grand Caravan. It's still FWD, so similar issues but the longer chassis makes it much easier to balance the load and the extra ponies and braking doesn't hurt either.

If you're towing with a FWD, you're going to want to optimize. Put the heaviest stuff you can in the passenger seat to help keep the front wheels weighted. Toolbox in the foot compartment and a full ice chest in the seat is a good start. Everything else should go as far forward as possible. Find out where your car's gas tank sits. If it's behind the rear axle, consider keeping it below half capacity while towing.

Also, put as little in/on the trailer as you can. Cars are designed to handle normally with the weight inside. Pay attention to load balancing the trailer as well. The usual rule of thumb is a 60/40 balance of weight fore and aft of the trailer axle. For a FWD tow rig, being a little closer to balanced is going to make a big difference in handling. Tongue weight should be low, but not totally negligible. I used to shoot for being able to lift the trailer tongue with one hand.

Oh, and save the speed for the track. Stick to the right lane and follow the "truck" speed limit if one's posted. Your braking/maneuvering will be about on par with theirs.

The Soul is front wheel drive. The trailer/bike combo would be pretty light, though. trailer is 300, bike is 387, so 687 lbs. Would I still need to do like you are saying, and load as much in the front of the car as possible?

I have no experience towing. I only know what little I have read recently. That, and what little Chris was saying about it on the way to drop me off as he was trying to not fall asleep at the wheel...
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Old September 4th, 2018, 07:30 PM   #8
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With just a Ninjette and a single rail Kendon, you probably don't have to go hardcore. I would still try to put some heavy stuff in the passenger seat. Bringing a toolbox and cooler to a track day is never a bad idea anyway. Maybe try loading it up and doing a trial run before you need to take the bike on a long trip. See how it feels, and if the front end of the car feels squirrely, adapt.
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Old September 4th, 2018, 07:33 PM   #9
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Do not go over the max tongue weight and you will be ok. Check the specs on your car but for a class I hitch is usually about 200 lbs.
Tongue weight can be found by loading the trailer with the tongue placed on a scale. Some bathroom scales can weigh up to 400lbs.
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Old September 4th, 2018, 07:35 PM   #10
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A trial run when the time comes sounds like a good idea.

It's a good thing that the Soul is bigger than I though it was, cuz there is going to be a lot of stuff in it when I go lol. I already have the back seat folded flat out of habit. It'll make for a nice sized sleeping area.
@Snake I was wondering how you measure that. thanks.

I'm sure the Soul will be just fine.
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Old September 5th, 2018, 02:47 AM   #11
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No, you will never lighten front-wheel load on FWD with trailer. You just add rear-wheel load by weight on tongue. General rule of thumb is 10-15% of loaded trailer weight up to 250lbs on tongue. This may change weight distribution by making larger percentage on rear than before, but front weight remains same because rear suspension takes load and compresses.

Only possible way tongue weight can "jack up" front end is if there was no rear suspension at all with wheels welded to body. Then you'd have teeter-totter that pivots at rear-wheels' contact patch. Even then it's not 1:1 due to different lever-moments. With say... 3ft between rear-wheel centre to hitch ball and 101-inch wheelbase, a 250-lb load on ball will result in (36/101)*250= 89-lb lift at front wheels. But again, only if you have a static model with no suspension.

Or if you load up rear wheels so much that they bottom rear suspension over bump. In which case, rear suspension is static and locked, resulting in tongue weigh jacking up front wheels using rear wheels as pivot point. Even then, worse case with 250-lb tongue and 89-lb lift at front-wheels, front loading is 2724*60%=1628lbs -89=1539lbs. With that much weight over front wheels and 130bhp, you're not gonna have any issues spinning the tyres due to loss of traction. Heck, with more realistic 100-lb tongue weight, that's only 36-lb front lift when bottoming rear. Front end loses way more than that coming off regular bumps without bottoming or trailer anyway without losing traction & spinning tyres.

Now if you're trying to pull 30-ft sailboat up steep algae-covered ramp or go up snow-covered hill pulling mobile-home, I can see where FWD might have issues.

The biggest problem with FWD towing is automatic transmissions, especially going up hills. Due spinning fluid between two fans to transfer power, the higher weight and load shears fluid more and generates more heat. Towing with an automatic should have trans fluid temp gauge installed along with thermostatically controlled transmission cooler.

Don't even think about towing with CVT!
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Old September 5th, 2018, 03:06 AM   #12
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The Soul is front wheel drive. The trailer/bike combo would be pretty light, though. trailer is 300, bike is 387, so 687 lbs. Would I still need to do like you are saying, and load as much in the front of the car as possible?
just aim for about 70-105 lbs tongue weight and you'll be fine. But let us know if you lose front traction and spin tyres madly due to lightened front end.
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Old September 5th, 2018, 04:42 AM   #13
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So I towed exact same bike on exact same trailer with two different cars.

RWD


FWD


Now, guess what happened to my braking distances using normal pedal-pressure? It INCREASED!!! For BOTH cars!!!
Guess what happened to my braking distances under maximum braking? It INCREASED!!! For BOTH cars!!!

Don't wait until an emergency situation under maximum braking to discover that you can't slow down as quickly. It's simple physics, F=ma. With same braking force F, acting on higher mass m, gives you slower deceleration -a. Trying to lift 200-lbs over your head is gonna be harder than 120-lbs for same strength. So practice maximum-braking by starting with normal pedal-pressure braking, then increase it each time to get used to different feel. In fact, my Porsche had worse, more increased distance, than Wagon because it's lighter. So same weight of bike+trailer shoved lighter Porsche larger increase in braking distance than their unladen distances.

The dynamic nature of braking causes weight-shift to front wheels. Harder you brake, larger the force pushing backwards, and more weight shifts to front wheels.



You can see that tyres that are gonna be overloaded under braking is gonna be front ones. As can also be evidenced by differently sized brakes in front vs. rear. Same with autos, just not as extreme as with bikes due to lower C.O.G. and longer wheelbase. An FWD auto with 60/40 f/r weight distribution may reach 70/30% with the front tyres facing twice as much load as rear, completely overwhelming front ones.

That's why cars with rearward weight bias such as Porsche 911 with 37/63% f/r distribution have shorter braking distances than just about anything else. Because under braking, forward weight shift gives it perfect 50/50 f/r rear loading for maximum traction without overloading front tyres. Heck, even a Toyota MR2 with 43/57% distribution can almost rival 911's braking due to its rearward weight bias.

That's why racers of FWD cars do everything possible to lighten up front-end and move weight to back to improve braking performance. Most common is relocating battery to boot, some even put radiator back there.

So.... Practice your braking beforehand. Don't wait until panic situation and find out you can't stop as well. That will ALWAYS be the case, simple physics, and overloading front tyres will just make it worse. I get 15-18ft shorter stopping distances from 70mph by piling as much stuff in boot of Wagon as possible, compared to having it up front.
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Old September 5th, 2018, 08:57 AM   #14
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One item not mentioned so far is the clutch if you drive stick. Getting the vehicle rolling while towing is harder on the clutch, especially if you have to start up a steep incline. The towing capacity for my F150 pick-up with 5 speed stick is rated around 3500 lbs. Exact same truck with an automatic and it's rated around 5000 lbs. Something to keep in mind.

If you're going to be towing a lot might want to consider beefing up the tow vehicle's brakes. Maybe some street performance pads. Maybe a better grade fluid with a higher boiling point. Don't go to an all-out racing fluid. Some racing brake fluids are sensitive to H2O contamination and aren't meant to be left in a vehicle all year. Could go as far as stainless steel braided brake lines but that might be a little much.
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Old September 5th, 2018, 11:14 PM   #15
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So legitimate question on towing options, if anyone has experience across two or all options.

1) Ford Transit High Roof
2) 6x10 or 6x12 open utility trailer
3) 5x10 enclosed cargo trailer (specifically a Pace Outback 5x10)

I am debating getting one of the above next year. I am a huge fan of the Ford Transit, and I usually string up a hammock inside to save on costs. It would also be nice to legally be able to do more than 55MPH. However, the high purchase and operating costs has me leaning towards a 5x10 enclosed trailer. The open trailers are great for simplicity and visibility, but I worry about security when traveling/stopping at motels.

Any thoughts? Tow vehicle for the trailer would be a Subaru Outback.
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Old September 6th, 2018, 01:18 AM   #16
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So legitimate question on towing options, if anyone has experience across two or all options.

1) Ford Transit High Roof
2) 6x10 or 6x12 open utility trailer
3) 5x10 enclosed cargo trailer (specifically a Pace Outback 5x10)

I am debating getting one of the above next year. I am a huge fan of the Ford Transit, and I usually string up a hammock inside to save on costs. It would also be nice to legally be able to do more than 55MPH. However, the high purchase and operating costs has me leaning towards a 5x10 enclosed trailer. The open trailers are great for simplicity and visibility, but I worry about security when traveling/stopping at motels.

Any thoughts? Tow vehicle for the trailer would be a Subaru Outback.
Having had all 3 options over the years. Go with a van.
Maybe not a newer Transit, but definetly a van. There are older E-350 high tops with tall back doors out there. A standard height can work but your always bent over due to the low roof. The smaller enclosed trailers suffer the same lack of standing height inside.
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Old September 7th, 2018, 06:48 AM   #17
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Having had all 3 options over the years. Go with a van.
Maybe not a newer Transit, but definetly a van. There are older E-350 high tops with tall back doors out there. A standard height can work but your always bent over due to the low roof. The smaller enclosed trailers suffer the same lack of standing height inside.
Personally, I'd choose the van. In hindsight, a low-roof eurovan (Transit/Sprinter/Promax) would have been a better choice for me than my Grand Caravan. If you're just doing one bike a 5x10 enclosed will be fine and you can camp inside at the track. If you ever think you'll want to tow two bikes, a 5x10 box is extremely cramped (I've tried it with the Ninja and Bonnie). With an open trailer, you can have a handlebar over the sidewall, and move around to strap the bikes down. With a box trailer, you're crawling over the bikes to get the second one strapped in. Although if you did Pitbull trailer restraints, it'd be a lot easier. No crawling over for straps and you could stagger the bikes front/rear.
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Old September 7th, 2018, 06:55 AM   #18
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Anyone used or seen a newer long-wheelbase Transit Connect or Ram Promaster City for hauling 1 bike?

The original Transit Connect was too short, but they have since introduced a longer version. Not sure how the Ram compares, but Enterprise does rent them.

Might be a good option if you had 1 bike and were going a distance (good MPG).
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Old September 7th, 2018, 07:00 AM   #19
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Or if you load up rear wheels so much that they bottom rear suspension over bump. In which case, rear suspension is static and locked, resulting in tongue weigh jacking up front wheels using rear wheels as pivot point.
This is exactly what happens towing with a passenger car. Look at the OP's picture. The rear is damn near bottomed out already, and the front is damn near topped out. That's with a static load. It doesn't even take a bump to finish the job. Just like your bike, acceleration shifts vehicle weight to the rear tires. Especially in a passenger car that's not really designed for towing.

As previously mentioned, if all you're hauling is a Ninja 250-300 with a lightweight trailer, it'll be fine. But the closer you get to the edge of the towing envelope with a small car, the more you're going to notice handling problems. This can be mitigated with careful loading, but in reality there comes a time when you just need to get a vehicle better suited to the task. It doesn't have to be a supercab dually long bed diesel brodozer, but at least something that's not designed primarily for fuel economy.
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Old September 7th, 2018, 07:03 AM   #20
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Anyone used or seen a newer long-wheelbase Transit Connect or Ram Promaster City for hauling 1 bike?

The original Transit Connect was too short, but they have since introduced a longer version. Not sure how the Ram compares, but Enterprise does rent them.

Might be a good option if you had 1 bike and were going a distance (good MPG).
Rear door entry hight will also be something to look at. On paper, my Ninjette will fit inside my Grand Caravan. In reality, I'd need a team to load it and probably still hurt my back.
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Old September 7th, 2018, 07:54 AM   #21
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This is exactly what happens towing with a passenger car. Look at the OP's picture. The rear is damn near bottomed out already, and the front is damn near topped out. That's with a static load. It doesn't even take a bump to finish the job.
Not really. Rear never bottomed, traction and handling not an issue. I wouldn't try to tow more than this, though.

One bit of info that's missing here is that the car has air bag helper springs in the rear, but they were leaking that day and I didn't have time to chase down the cause so they were not inflated.

Lots of the feedback I get is "say goodbye to your transmission/clutch/brakes." All I know is what I've experienced first-hand:

190,000 miles on the car
Zero transmission issues
Zero engine issues
Zero cooling issues (heat index was about 100 the day that pic was taken)
Original clutch
Brakes replaced at normal intervals
Suspension does not bottom (but it's close)
No adverse handling... never a hint of instability
Close to 30mpg while towing.

I should note that I do NOT drive the car as if it were unloaded. I drive it as if it were an 18-wheeler... accelerate slowly, plan deceleration and stops well in advance, speeds kept close to the limit, no unnecessary stress.

The whole point here is not that this is the world's best tow rig. It's to show that you don't need a freakin' monster truck to tow a bike, nothing more.
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Old September 7th, 2018, 07:59 AM   #22
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Rear door entry hight will also be something to look at. On paper, my Ninjette will fit inside my Grand Caravan. In reality, I'd need a team to load it and probably still hurt my back.
Up until recently, we carried all of our bikes in our Grand Caravan.

Even got a Ninja in there with the 2 rear buckets still in it but removed from their mounts.

We have also done this -




and this -



Recently sold that one ('02) but still have the newer model ('08), which you can't really get a cycle inside. It does have load-leveling though, which is handy. Not as good as a utility van as the older model.
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Old September 7th, 2018, 08:30 AM   #23
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Anyone used or seen a newer long-wheelbase Transit Connect or Ram Promaster City for hauling 1 bike?

The original Transit Connect was too short, but they have since introduced a longer version. Not sure how the Ram compares, but Enterprise does rent them.
I haven't spent time with the Promaster City. The Transit Connect is "doable" but a hassle. If I recall correctly, it was still a bit smaller at the rear hatch than a Mercedes Metris. It's in the "slightly better than a minivan," but still a pain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AwDang View Post
Having had all 3 options over the years. Go with a van.
Maybe not a newer Transit, but definetly a van. There are older E-350 high tops with tall back doors out there. A standard height can work but your always bent over due to the low roof. The smaller enclosed trailers suffer the same lack of standing height inside.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burphel View Post
Personally, I'd choose the van. In hindsight, a low-roof eurovan (Transit/Sprinter/Promax) would have been a better choice for me than my Grand Caravan. If you're just doing one bike a 5x10 enclosed will be fine and you can camp inside at the track. If you ever think you'll want to tow two bikes, a 5x10 box is extremely cramped (I've tried it with the Ninja and Bonnie). With an open trailer, you can have a handlebar over the sidewall, and move around to strap the bikes down. With a box trailer, you're crawling over the bikes to get the second one strapped in. Although if you did Pitbull trailer restraints, it'd be a lot easier. No crawling over for straps and you could stagger the bikes front/rear.
Thanks for your thoughts. I would be using Pitbull TRS for securing the bike in either scenario. I am over having to deal with cross strapping two bikes and dealing with everything when unloading.

Personally, the low-roof vans are fine for just transportation. However, I would be staying in the van, and I've found the high roof to be much more comfortable with being able to stand up. Also, I've sold my girlfriend on a high roof van for the potential of a camper van conversion down the road. It would be nice to save on bike transport with a trailer, but looks like I'll just stay focused on the vans.
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Old September 7th, 2018, 03:45 PM   #24
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Not really. Rear never bottomed, traction and handling not an issue. I wouldn't try to tow more than this, though.

One bit of info that's missing here is that the car has air bag helper springs in the rear, but they were leaking that day and I didn't have time to chase down the cause so they were not inflated.

Lots of the feedback I get is "say goodbye to your transmission/clutch/brakes." All I know is what I've experienced first-hand:

190,000 miles on the car
Zero transmission issues
Zero engine issues
Zero cooling issues (heat index was about 100 the day that pic was taken)
Original clutch
Brakes replaced at normal intervals
Suspension does not bottom (but it's close)
No adverse handling... never a hint of instability
Close to 30mpg while towing.

I should note that I do NOT drive the car as if it were unloaded. I drive it as if it were an 18-wheeler... accelerate slowly, plan deceleration and stops well in advance, speeds kept close to the limit, no unnecessary stress.

The whole point here is not that this is the world's best tow rig. It's to show that you don't need a freakin' monster truck to tow a bike, nothing more.
hear, hear!

I said it a while back, the first person I thought of when it came to towing with a small car, was you. I would think if there were ever any big issues that you would have mentioned them. For 1 bike and a light trailer, small cars have been proven to be just fine. I know I could have towed my bike with this lil girl if she had been up to the task mechanically/body wise.
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Old September 12th, 2018, 12:23 PM   #25
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Sits here chuckling at all these people worried about pulling trailers when his truck could easily pull a trailer with ADouglas' and Koala's cars and their bikes on the trailer and still not be close to the rated towing capacity of 19,000 lbs.
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Old September 12th, 2018, 01:19 PM   #26
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Sits here chuckling at all these people worried about pulling trailers when his truck could easily pull a trailer with ADouglas' and Koala's cars and their bikes on the trailer and still not be close to the rated towing capacity of 19,000 lbs.
Wow! What kind of truck do you have? Must be a gooseneck trailer.
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Old September 12th, 2018, 05:57 PM   #27
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One of these perhaps? Towed 150,000-lbs or so...

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Old September 12th, 2018, 06:02 PM   #28
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One of these perhaps? Towed 150,000-lbs or so...

that's pretty crazy
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Old September 12th, 2018, 06:31 PM   #29
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One of these perhaps? Towed 150,000-lbs or so...

The Space Shuttle. That’s another aerospace vehicle that I feel was retired way too early!
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Old September 12th, 2018, 06:58 PM   #30
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HUGE difference between towing and pulling.

For reference, let's say you have a 3000 lb car. OMG IT'S 3000 LBS! That's so much! How will I ever move it!??? Push it in neutral... it's about 60-70 lbs worth of actual pushing force. A child can do that.


Same thing applies to the Tundra/shuttle gimmick.
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Old September 12th, 2018, 06:59 PM   #31
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The Space Shuttle. That’s another aerospace vehicle that I feel was retired way too early!
Serious??? thing was designed in the 70's. Good riddance!
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Old September 12th, 2018, 08:02 PM   #32
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Serious??? thing was designed in the 70's. Good riddance!
Yes it was old technology but you don’t get rid of something that is working until you have something as good as or better to replace it. So instead for many years afterwards we were forced to rely on the Russians (who were using 60’s technology) to get back and forth to the International Space Station.
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Old September 12th, 2018, 08:34 PM   #33
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They used the Tundra to tow the Shuttle across one of the bridges. I think the regular tow vehicle wouldn't fit, or something. I went out to see her do the fly-by when she came into LAX. Amazing. The video of her transit through all the streets is at the Science Center Shuttle exhibit. It's a really cool time-lapse, and kind of surreal to see the Shuttle going next to street signs, houses, and apartments.
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Old September 12th, 2018, 11:23 PM   #34
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Serious??? thing was designed in the 70's. Good riddance!
Ahem. Designed in the 1960s. Nothing has ever come close.

Ludd's Sixth Law of Technology: Newer is not necessarily better.

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Old September 13th, 2018, 02:25 AM   #35
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Ahem. Designed in the 1960s. Nothing has ever come close.
That we know about... I think the Aurora has beaten it... Didn't hear that from me...
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Old September 13th, 2018, 04:39 AM   #36
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Ahem. Designed in the 1960s. Nothing has ever come close.

Ludd's Sixth Law of Technology: Newer is not necessarily better.

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i have a model hanging from my old room, i built it when i was in my early teens.
blackbird sr-71
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Old September 13th, 2018, 08:31 AM   #37
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Yeah, my brother has model of SR-71 also.

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Old September 13th, 2018, 09:49 AM   #38
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Wow! What kind of truck do you have? Must be a gooseneck trailer.
2014 Chevy Silverado 2500 with Duramax Diesel and Allison Trans. Gooseneck or 5th wheel rated for 19,000 lbs. I think it's 13,000 with a class V hitch.
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Old September 13th, 2018, 09:53 AM   #39
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Ahem. Designed in the 1960s. Nothing has ever come close.
Nothing that has been officially acknowledged has come close.

But I guarantee there are faster maned planes out there, both ours and our adversaries.
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Old September 13th, 2018, 09:58 AM   #40
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From tracking the sonic-booms, it's suspected that Aurora goes mach-6 or more...

Also clues of pulse detonation engine in contrails... at 200,000 ft...

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