Rev matching and braking at the same time

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Gurk

The new generation is in great hands.

Yep. I'm a gay second grader that doesn't wanna grow up to be you. I'm tooootally fine with that ally

You guys belong together <3

Aww, thanks Gurk.

[anacron]

^^^ LOL!

The transmission is so smooth on the 300!

I've started getting the hang of rev matched downshifts and the shifts are silky smooth. I should really get myself to a trackday though... I feel like I'm becoming much more aggressive with the riding and trying to hit the powerband at every corner.

I know a lot of people have said this before but, it's a really nice feeling when riding a small "slow" bike aggressively.

[KawiKid860]

Originally Posted by anacron

^^^ LOL!

The transmission is so smooth on the 300!

I've started getting the hang of rev matched downshifts and the shifts are silky smooth. I should really get myself to a trackday though... I feel like I'm becoming much more aggressive with the riding and trying to hit the powerband at every corner.

I know a lot of people have said this before but, it's a really nice feeling when riding a small "slow" bike aggressively.

Doesn't the 300 have a slipper clutch though...?

[KawiKid860]

I came here to learn about rev matching down shifts while braking and instead I learned about a website for gay sportbike riders...

I do it like everyone else pretty much, couple fingers on the brake, mostly using palm for throttle control and modulating the clutch at the same time. It's really fun to do, especially when you get it perfectly smooth.

[anacron]

Originally Posted by KawiKid860

Doesn't the 300 have a slipper clutch though...?

It does... but I'm not sure I know what you're getting at.

You're referring to slipper clutch as in the transmission will always be smooth under downshifts?

If so, this is definitely not the case because the slipper clutch just keeps the back wheel from locking up - you get some massive engine braking and serious jerking action (depending on how high the revs are before downshift).

So, basically rev matching is still important for that smooth, (virtually) frictionless feel.

[CycleCam303]

I blip. Actually if get really aggressive I don't even use the clutch and literally bang down gears while blipping. Rev matching is a fun and useful technique. I personally think it depends on style but smooth is king for me. I don't have a slipper clutch and I actually don't like slipper on street bikes. Just practice and soon it will be second nature. You'll want to learn clutch control too though. Even though I blip I sometimes ease the clutch out to get a desired engine brake effect even while casual street riding.

I'm slowing to a stop sign in a residential zone cruising in 4th gear. I'll blip and quickly release the clutch in succession with 3rd and 2nd. Then a moderate blip and release the clutch right at friction zone while still on the brake for first. Notice how I said brake. I just use the front and the clutch as my rear brake. I'll slowly let the clutch out and the bike maintains an rpm, I get a lot of 1st gear engine braking but without sliding the rear tire. You'll know if you're doing correctly because the bike will maintain an rpm say 6500 while you're doing the braking and then I pull the clutch in after getting the desired braking effect then coast to a stop. If that makes sense. If I let the clutch out all the way it would rev to probably 8k.

[anacron]

Originally Posted by CycleCam303

I blip. Actually if get really aggressive I don't even use the clutch and literally bang down gears while blipping.

The bike doesn't lunge back and forth when blipping w/o clutch?

[CycleCam303]

As long as you match revs it's totally smooth. If you over rev the surging feeling is the same as letting the clutch out quickly.

[Ytse Frobozz]

While we're talking about the ability to downshift while braking, or lack thereof, have you ever "backed it in" completely by accident? Because I have, on the street, making a 90 degree right hand turn off of a busy road, with cars all around me, and I may have looked like a bad ass but I went straight to brown alert.

I was just on my way to work, not trying to be fancy or anything, but I think I just punched in one (or two?) too many downshifts, and then when I let the clutch all the way out, I felt some invisible force driving me into/through/but-oh-god-please-not-past the corner, fighting my brakes, and I was like O SHIIII but I somehow managed to square it off without going down. I didn't need any coffee when I got to work.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Ytse Frobozz

..........I was just on my way to work, not trying to be fancy or anything, but I think I just punched in one (or two?) too many downshifts, and then when I let the clutch all the way out, I felt some invisible force driving me into/through/but-oh-god-please-not-past the corner, fighting my brakes, and I was like O SHIIII but I somehow managed to square it off without going down.......

Something like this?

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Ytse Frobozz]

Yes, like that, except slower, and with a little more O SHIIII-

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Ytse Frobozz

Yes, like that, except slower, and with a little more O SHIIII-

Rob,

This excellent article offers some good points about the proper way to slowdown before turning for street riding:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=145356

The problem with "backed it in" on asphalt is that the rear tire may suddenly regain traction, inducing a high-side fall.
Note how in the video Rossi releases the rear brake slowly, so the rear tire re-gains full traction slowly while it gets in line with the front tire, avoiding that high-side fall.

Never precipitate your entry into a street turn; rather, plan the proper entry speed way before the turn and use the brakes to slowdown the bike with precision.
Reserve downshifting only for keeping the engine and wheels in rotational harmony.

Later on, when you become more skilful, you could use the downshifting for precise braking, like this:
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showp...3&postcount=21

[sunspots]

I suck at this so much.

I'm fine at it at low gears, but when it comes to going from 6th to 3rd and having to rev match, thats when I get nervous.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by CycleCam303

I blip. Actually if get really aggressive I don't even use the clutch and literally bang down gears while blipping. Rev matching is a fun and useful technique. I personally think it depends on style but smooth is king for me. I don't have a slipper clutch and I actually don't like slipper on street bikes. Just practice and soon it will be second nature. You'll want to learn clutch control too though. Even though I blip I sometimes ease the clutch out to get a desired engine brake effect even while casual street riding.

I'm slowing to a stop sign in a residential zone cruising in 4th gear. I'll blip and quickly release the clutch in succession with 3rd and 2nd. Then a moderate blip and release the clutch right at friction zone while still on the brake for first. Notice how I said brake. I just use the front and the clutch as my rear brake. I'll slowly let the clutch out and the bike maintains an rpm, I get a lot of 1st gear engine braking but without sliding the rear tire. You'll know if you're doing correctly because the bike will maintain an rpm say 6500 while you're doing the braking and then I pull the clutch in after getting the desired braking effect then coast to a stop. If that makes sense. If I let the clutch out all the way it would rev to probably 8k.

That's the same as Rojos method right? Been playing around with that. Using the clutch as the rear brake is really easy and seems to help me control the rear better and enter faster. Cool how different riding styles all work but are all so totally different.

[anacron]

Originally Posted by sunspots

I suck at this so much.

I'm fine at it at low gears, but when it comes to going from 6th to 3rd and having to rev match, thats when I get nervous.

Nervous because you're afraid to lock up the rear?

It really is just a matter of getting a feel for the engine and what rpm ranges it likes to be in as you bang down the gears. It took me a few rides before I was rev matching nicely from 6th down. Listen to the engine... if you can tell how hard its working, then you can use that to modulate throttle input. After a few rides it becomes second-nature.

Experiment with the bike and practice, its definitely worth it. Especially that beautiful grunt as you blip the throttle and the silky smooth decel

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by sunspots

I suck at this so much.

I'm fine at it at low gears, but when it comes to going from 6th to 3rd and having to rev match, thats when I get nervous.

That probably has a lot to do with the gear ratios. I don't ride a Ninjette (yet), but rather a CB500F and the lower gears are fairly far apart. I can use engine braking easily from 3rd-6th, but 2nd and especially 1st are difficult to manage well for me. I'd almost as soon that 1st didn't exist - I think there's a larger countershaft sprocket in my future.

[BRad704]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

That's the same as Rojos method right? Been playing around with that. Using the clutch as the rear brake is really easy and seems to help me control the rear better and enter faster. Cool how different riding styles all work but are all so totally different.

I'm so confused right now... And I feel like a little kid, watching 2 grown-ups fight each other.

If Rojo's method is clutchless blipping WITH use of front brake only, then that's what I'm already doing. I'm actually far far smoother on downshifts at any RPM without the clutch, than with it. I'll still use it around the neighborhood or on a slow cruising ride, but as soon as the pace picks up, I stop using the clutch at all for downshifts... Even into 1st.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by BRad704

If Rojo's method is clutchless blipping WITH use of front brake only, then that's what I'm already doing.

Ehhh, there's a high chance of messing things up on a clutchless downshift because you're blipping, vs an upshift where you close the throttle real quick. I'd start working on that clutch control.


Rojo doesn't (in his videos) blip on downshifts or use the rear brake (from what he says) to slow down. He has to brake late and hard to do this, so take it with a grain of salt. In my experience, rojo's method is pretty aggressive for street riding because of how much easier it is when you're ON the brakes, but does work. As he rolls of the throttle, he immediately does a few things. He flicks the clutch lever (juuuuuust barely past the friction zone) and taps down a gear. Then, the clutch is kinda floated in the friction zone to effectively control the rear braking power and get the engine matched to the transmission speed with one motion. At the same time as all this, he's on the front brake. Hard.

If you do it right, you'll come into your corner at say, 11k. You'll close throttle, flick clutch, tap down a gear, and then feather the clutch so that you get rear wheel braking, but your engine rpm stays nearly constant until that gear is smoothly engaged. Repeat until you've set your entry speed. This allows you to slow the rear wheel easily without locking, and gets you in the right gear for corner entry without any extra thought. It also kinda lets you float the rear if you do it just right and rotate the bike a little.

Again, I've found that mimicking his style is much easier if you do it in a more aggressive ride. It's a pretty advanced method of clutch control, but if you get the timing just right, it's a pretty slick way to trim speed and use the rear for some braking along with the front as you enter turns. It definitely requires some good clutch control.

I hope I didn't come off like I was fighting. I've just been playing around with the clutch as I slow for turns to mimic Jason and see why he rides the way he does. I think I'll play with it more next season when I'm at the track and can really get on it.

[BRad704]

I think the reason it works for me right now (street only) is that I'm never on the brakes that hard when setting up for a corner... Because I'm not racing, nor on a track.

It makes total sense though. And not I want to go try downshifting with steady throttle and easy on the clutch...

[anacron]

@choneofakind

This has been my experience as well. You really need to brake late and hard. This is fairly aggressive for the street. In fact, in regular street riding its actually harder to rev match down shift b/c your rpms aren't high enough and you can usually slow down just by rolling off and letting engine braking take care of the rest.

Never tried feathering the clutch in between rev matches though... what's the purpose of doing this?
Here's how I do it: while I'm braking hard I pull in the clutch, kick down, blip and dump the clutch. Rinse and repeat for multiple downshifts.

Feathering the clutch seems like you're taking some weight off the front and using engine braking to get you to the right engine/road speed combination. Is that correct? Seems like this is a good way of not making huge weight distribution changes while setting up for a corner...

[choneofakind]

No no no, Rojo's method doesn't blip the throttle. That's why the feathering is necessary. Like I said, feathering the clutch to let the wheel change the engine speed (instead of blipping the throttle and then just engine braking) lets you actually have a solid braking effect on the rear wheel without ever touching the rear brake. Watch his video when he was at Laguna Seca. You'll see what I mean.

Remember you can also use the rear brake for line correction when you're turning if you need it.


You can rev match with the throttle (blip) at any speed. I've found that using rojo's method is much smoother if you do it with fast clutch flicks and hard braking. It lends itself well to really hard riding, not so much street riding, where you should set up your entry speed before you turn in.

[anacron]

@choneofakind

Well, so I understand why the feathering is necessary in Rojo's method but I was trying to get at how the two methods actually compare.

One where you feather the clutch to kill speed and one where you dump the clutch + blip + front brake at the same time. In my mind, weight transition immediately jumps out since feathering keeps a much more balanced distribution. Whereas w/ blip you're loading the front throughout the braking and downshifting process and immediately shift the weight to the back as you're rolling-on through the corner.

Am I reading too far into the differences?

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by BRad704

.........but as soon as the pace picks up, I stop using the clutch at all for downshifts... Even into 1st.

[choneofakind]

Adi, when your braking with both methods, you're going to load the front. The only difference I've found is that sometimes blipping to match revs can be hard to do consistently at speed. You'll notice in my track videos, there's one downshift here or there where the front dips and bobs real quick. That's because I got my fingers a little funny on the brake while I was blipping.

Using the slipping without blipping method is very smooth when you get it right.

[BRad704]

Originally Posted by Motofool

LOL, Wat?

I tried the clutched downshift with brake and no blip this morning on some backroads. I have to say, with some practice, it certainly seems like I could get used to using the front brake to do the slowing, with feathering the clutch back out to during the downshift. ie, less power downshifting with maximum engine braking...

As dramatic as this thread was, it did prove to be a very informative thread.