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Old May 28th, 2022, 09:26 PM   #1
Ninja Rob
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Bike won't start...

It's been a while since I have ridden and been a while since I have been on here.

Bought a new battery, took the carbs out, took them apart, cleaned the carbs and the parts in the Berryman cleaner, put it all back together. Bike turned on and would stay on, tried riding it a little and would sometimes turn off. Exchanged the new battery for another new Yuasa battery since the first new battery was not very reliable. Charged it up. Turned on the bike. It worked for two days. I have not taken it for a ride since it needs new tires and was waiting for those to deliver. Now it doesn't power on.

Good stuff:
-Battery is new and gets charged with a motorcycle battery tender
-Carbs were taken apart and cleaned
-new selenoid
-new wires going from battery to selenoid
-new starter
-All fuses are good
-New gas (some of that expensive over $4.60 a gallon gas, thats how new it is)

Symptoms:
-selenoid makes 1 click sound when start button is pressed
-starter not turning over
-push starting bike is unsuccessful
-clutch pulled in and in neutral or 1st gear, neither will start
-clutch not pulled in and in neutral, will not start
-selenoid wont "jump" when I get a screw driver and place on top of both bolts of the selenoid, sparks but nothing else
-headlight does not come on (all other lights do though) while key is in on position and the red button is switched to the on position, only gets 1 click from the selenoid when the start button is pressed
-battery is around 13V when connected to the bike (fresh off the battery charger)
-battery remains above 13V when the I try to turn on the bike
-when checking the selenoid with the multimeter, reads above 13V, as soon as I press the start button, it drops down to around 7V, clicks once, and that's it. This goes back up to around 13V when let go of the button to turn it on ( not sure if I am doing this right?)

I searched around previous posts and read many of the "jump the selenoid and if it works its..." and all of the posts the selenoid jump trick worked. Doesn't work in my case so I'm not sure where to go from here.

Any suggestions?
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Old May 29th, 2022, 08:42 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja Rob View Post
-headlight does not come on (all other lights do though) while key is in on position and the red button is switched to the on position, only gets 1 click from the selenoid when the start button is pressed
-battery is around 13V when connected to the bike (fresh off the battery charger)
-battery remains above 13V when the I try to turn on the bike
-when checking the selenoid with the multimeter, reads above 13V, as soon as I press the start button, it drops down to around 7V, clicks once, and that's it. This goes back up to around 13V when let go of the button to turn it on ( not sure if I am doing this right?)

Any suggestions?
Welcome back Rob! Do I read correctly that bike WAS running? Then started dying?

- headlight only turns on when engine is spinning

- large voltage drop below 10v is either dead battery or..

- load too high on starter and it's not spinning, thus large current-draw and large voltage-drop


1. don't make too many changes at once. It introduces multiple unknown variables into system. Test first to positively 100% identify a bad component before replacing. Original dying problem was most likely just loose kickstand switch. Now we've got many more things to test

2. test new starter - remove new starter. Clamp in vice and use jumper-cables to test. Negative cable on mounting ears. Positive on cable terminal. Does it spin?

3. test spinning engine by hand. Remove plastic cap on flywheel cover and spin engine with wrench. Might need to rock back & forth couple times. Then spin engine anti-clockwise towards front. If seized, remove plugs and squirt in PB-Blaster and let sit overnight. Once you've verified engine spins by hand.

4. put original starter back in

5. put original solenoid back in - be aware of M-terminal goes to starter, B-terminal goes to battery. There was guy who bought aftermarket solenoid with terminals reversed.
He wasted tonnes of time refusing to measure to figure that out

6. measure resistance of original battery cables, then put them back in

Basically we want to put your bike completely back together in state it was in when it last ran and start testing:

7. measure kickstand swich terminals: kickstand DOWN - back-probe kickstand connector. do they have continuity between terminals? do terminals have continuity to ground?

8. measure kickstand swich terminals: kickstand UP - back-probe kickstand connector do they have continuity between terminals? do terminals have continuity to ground?

9. measure kickstand switch terminals: dynamic conditions in UP position - back-probe kickstand connector, measure continuity between terminals. Then wiggle kickstand end around, does it change continuity measurement?

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; May 29th, 2022 at 09:58 AM.
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Old May 29th, 2022, 08:50 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Welcome back Rob!

- headlight only turns on when engine is spinning

- large voltage drop below 10v is either dead battery or..

- load too high on starter and it's not spinning, thus large current-draw and large voltage-drop


1. test spinning engine by hand. Remove plastic cap on flywheel cover and spin engine with wrench. Might need to rock back & forth couple times. Then spin engine anti-clockwise towards front. Remove plugs and squirt in PB-Blaster and let sit overnight

Thank you for the reply!
I have an idea of what that might be. I removed a small cap, a little larger than a 3 liter bottle cap and saw a bolt in there when I was messing around. Is that it? Or do I have to remove the entire cover, which is much larger?

Can you send a pic?
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Old May 29th, 2022, 10:06 AM   #4
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Yes that's plastic cover in centre you want to remove. Use breaker-bar on flywheel bolt and gently rock back & forth and spin anti-clockwise. Don't force too much or you'll undo flywheel bolt. Will then need zipping back on with impact-wrench.


Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; May 29th, 2022 at 11:42 AM.
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Old May 29th, 2022, 11:33 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Yes that's plastic cover in centre you want to remove. Use breaker-bar on flywheel bolt and gently rock back & forth and spin anti-clockwise. Don't force too much or you'll undo flywheel bolt. Will then need zipping back on with impact-wrench.


Will try that later. Thanks!
Hope it works.
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Old May 29th, 2022, 05:28 PM   #6
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Original stuff back in.
Tried turning the motor.
The selenoid buzzed while I tried to turn it on and nothing.
Gonna have to learn how to measure the electrical stuff.
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Old May 29th, 2022, 08:09 PM   #7
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ok, buzzing is good, much better than single click.

Did engine spin by hand?

At this point, measure battery again:

1. battery-voltage with everything OFF. Volts = ???
2. battery-voltage when pushing START button. Volts = ???

Try same thing with jumping from known-good auto battery. Leave car OFF.
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Old May 30th, 2022, 11:19 AM   #8
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ok, buzzing is good, much better than single click.

Did engine spin by hand?

At this point, measure battery again:

1. battery-voltage with everything OFF. Volts = ???
2. battery-voltage when pushing START button. Volts = ???

Try same thing with jumping from known-good auto battery. Leave car OFF.
Engine turned by hand clock wise, no turn counter clock wise turn though. Might need a bigger ratchet though?

No more buzzing, just straight repeated clicks if I leave the start button pressed for a few seconds.

Everything off, about 12.70ish volts
With start button pressed, battery drops down, the longer I leave it pressed the lower it goes, all the way down to 0. Same thing happens at the selenoid. This happens both while jumping with the car battery ( with car off) and while not jumping with car battery.

When start button is released, the battery reads 12.70+ V again.
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Old May 30th, 2022, 02:04 PM   #9
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Called up my old man asking if he had a tool (wisdom) that I didn't have in my tool set.

We narrowed it down to the starter. Starter wouldn't turn when bypassing selenoid.
Replaced starter.
Engine turns over now.

By this point, all the testing drained the battery below 12V so the battery didnt have enough juice to turn the bike on all the way. It's charging up at the moment.
I'll try to start it up once again when the battery tops off.
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Old May 30th, 2022, 02:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja Rob View Post
We narrowed it down to the starter. Starter wouldn't turn when bypassing selenoid.
Replaced starter.
Engine turns over now.
Was this original starter or replacement?

Good job on repairs!
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Old May 30th, 2022, 06:12 PM   #11
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Was this original starter or replacement?

Good job on repairs!
Original was replaced long ago with a replacement. Then I replaced the old replacement with new replacement.

Only problem now is that it won't stay on more than a minute or it turns off when I give it a little throttle.
Might have to take carbs out and clean again.
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Old May 30th, 2022, 07:06 PM   #12
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Probably multiple fueling issues:

runs only for minute - petrol flow issue through petcock. Can't supply quickly enough to keep float-bowls filled up

dies when throttle opened - is clogged pilot circuit. Need to do full restoration job on carbs, complete disassembly and scrub w/ultrasonic soak. Not quicky spritz with spray carb-cleaner which no longer works anyway.

Check out this thread for photos and procedures: https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=375975
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Old May 31st, 2022, 03:19 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Probably multiple fueling issues:

runs only for minute - petrol flow issue through petcock. Can't supply quickly enough to keep float-bowls filled up

dies when throttle opened - is clogged pilot circuit. Need to do full restoration job on carbs, complete disassembly and scrub w/ultrasonic soak. Not quicky spritz with spray carb-cleaner which no longer works anyway.

Check out this thread for photos and procedures: https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=375975
So the Berryban carb cleaning Dip doesn't work either? That's where I originally cleaned it in. Left it inside the can for about an hour. Then I took everything out, cleaned the small holes on eveything with a guitar string.
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Old May 31st, 2022, 04:07 PM   #14
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So the Berryban carb cleaning Dip doesn't work either? That's where I originally cleaned it in. Left it inside the can for about an hour. Then I took everything out, cleaned the small holes on eveything with a guitar string.
The Berryman dip may be effective, he is referring to carb cleaner spray not being effective as the environmental mob has that stuff neutered to the point that it is basically a lightly cleaning hand soap in effectiveness lol.

The carb breakdown and ultrasonic cleaning is a very effective step in this process. If you don't have one, or want a better than factory job on your carb, definitely PM Ducatiman on here.
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Old May 31st, 2022, 06:26 PM   #15
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So the Berryban carb cleaning Dip doesn't work either? That's where I originally cleaned it in. Left it inside the can for about an hour. Then I took everything out, cleaned the small holes on eveything with a guitar string.
Pilot jets and passages not factory-fresh clean from "dying when throttle opened" symptoms.

Soaking is not enough, chemicals needs to be used with scrub-brushes on all hidden secret passages from end-to-end. Also bend copper wire 10mm from end at 90-degree angle. Use to poke out bleed-holes in carb-venturi in reverse direction back towards float-bowls.

Also clean out choke-jet and passages. Jet's not removable and needs tiny wire to poke through. Had case where jet was so clocked, a micro drill-bit needed to be used to clear.

These tough hard dried-petrol plastic deposits can't be chemically removed. Tough metal-based mechanical methods needs to be used.

Also need to actually measure objective concrete quantifiable data on petcock flow-rate.

If petcock's not flowing enough, doesn't matter how clean carbs are, bike will die when petrol-usage rate is higher than petcock can flow.



Problem with this test is you may be artificially applying more vacuum than under actual operating conditions. Same with sucking on vacuum line. I had case like this where petcock test flows just fine. Then I'd get 30-seconds/quarter way through lap at track and it'd die! Hauled it back to pits, repeat petcock test and it's fine. Start it up and it'd run just fine for 2-5 minutes to warm up. Get on track and 30-seconds later, it'd die again!!!

Had to connect vacuum-gauge to petcock hose with rubber-T and monitor actual vacuum applied at petcock port. AHAHH!!!! Petcock was getting only 2-3 in.Hg vacuum! WTF?@#$$!? Turned out I had crimped and clogged vacuum-line between carb & petcock. It would dribble enough through at idle and low-loads to fill up flow-bowl. But as soon as I went WOT, engine would consume petrol at faster-rate than dribble from petcock could supply. Replaced that vacuum-hose between petcock and made sure it wasn't crimped fixed that problem for good. NEVER, EVER would've found it without measuring with gauge to gather actual in-the-field hard data.
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Old June 1st, 2022, 06:17 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Pilot jets and passages not factory-fresh clean from "dying when throttle opened" symptoms.

Soaking is not enough, chemicals needs to be used with scrub-brushes on all hidden secret passages from end-to-end. Also bend copper wire 10mm from end at 90-degree angle. Use to poke out bleed-holes in carb-venturi in reverse direction back towards float-bowls.

Also clean out choke-jet and passages. Jet's not removable and needs tiny wire to poke through. Had case where jet was so clocked, a micro drill-bit needed to be used to clear.

These tough hard dried-petrol plastic deposits can't be chemically removed. Tough metal-based mechanical methods needs to be used.

Also need to actually measure objective concrete quantifiable data on petcock flow-rate.

If petcock's not flowing enough, doesn't matter how clean carbs are, bike will die when petrol-usage rate is higher than petcock can flow.



Problem with this test is you may be artificially applying more vacuum than under actual operating conditions. Same with sucking on vacuum line. I had case like this where petcock test flows just fine. Then I'd get 30-seconds/quarter way through lap at track and it'd die! Hauled it back to pits, repeat petcock test and it's fine. Start it up and it'd run just fine for 2-5 minutes to warm up. Get on track and 30-seconds later, it'd die again!!!

Had to connect vacuum-gauge to petcock hose with rubber-T and monitor actual vacuum applied at petcock port. AHAHH!!!! Petcock was getting only 2-3 in.Hg vacuum! WTF?@#$$!? Turned out I had crimped and clogged vacuum-line between carb & petcock. It would dribble enough through at idle and low-loads to fill up flow-bowl. But as soon as I went WOT, engine would consume petrol at faster-rate than dribble from petcock could supply. Replaced that vacuum-hose between petcock and made sure it wasn't crimped fixed that problem for good. NEVER, EVER would've found it without measuring with gauge to gather actual in-the-field hard data.

Thank you for the info. It's all very useful. I'll replace the whole petcock assembly anyway since it looks like it should be replaced anyway. Also have a spare set of carbs. Ducatiman sold me the ones I'm currently using. I'll probably send the spares to Ducatiman to restore. Then I can swap them out when the current ones are in need of a thorough cleaning. That way there is no down time in between carb cleanings. Going to drain the float bowls too. I'm just trying to get this thing going so I can take it to get the chain, sprockets, and tires replaced.
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Old June 11th, 2022, 02:59 PM   #17
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New problem...now it won't idle without the choke on or unless I'm revving the throttle. By no idle, I mean that it wont stay on while idling. It has new gas, new petcock, carbs cleaned for 3rd time.
I did the 2 1/2 turns on the idle jets when putting them back on. I screwed them all the way in and then unscrewed them 2 1/2 turns.

Should I screw them all the way back in?

I'm about ready to just sell this thing and get a fuel injected.
Only reason I haven't done that yet is because I'm paying for my masters degree out of pocket at the moment.
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Old June 11th, 2022, 03:17 PM   #18
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How long ago, when did I do your carbs, Rob? Do so many, i've lost track.
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Old June 11th, 2022, 04:07 PM   #19
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How long ago, when did I do your carbs, Rob? Do so many, i've lost track.
They're actually a refurb set you got off a 500cc. Got them some time in Aug 2019. They're still kicking. Only thing that needed to be replaced on them which I did today was the bowl gaskets. Got OEMs and they fit perfect.
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Old June 11th, 2022, 04:53 PM   #20
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a 500? I thought we were on a 250 here, no?
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Old June 11th, 2022, 06:32 PM   #21
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a 500? I thought we were on a 250 here, no?

Yeah but the carbs you got for me were from a 500cc. You told me they were the same. But yes, I am on a 250cc
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Old June 12th, 2022, 07:03 AM   #22
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YOU've PREVIOUSLY POSTED:
"Ducatiman sold me the ones I'm currently using"

"They're actually a refurb set you (Ducatiman) got off a 500cc"

"Yeah but the carbs you got for me were from a 500cc. You told me they were the same."

Seriously....the same? I told you this?

what does the 500cc set you refer to have to do with your 250?

pic 500 on lhs, 250 on rhs.....the same? HUH?
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Old June 12th, 2022, 10:52 AM   #23
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YOU've PREVIOUSLY POSTED:
"Ducatiman sold me the ones I'm currently using"

"They're actually a refurb set you (Ducatiman) got off a 500cc"

"Yeah but the carbs you got for me were from a 500cc. You told me they were the same."

Seriously....the same? I told you this?

what does the 500cc set you refer to have to do with your 250?

pic 500 on lhs, 250 on rhs.....the same? HUH?
I can show you a screen pic of the message you sent me back in 2019.
This is what the message says but if you want the screen pic of the actual message I can show you.
There is some back and forth and "500" is mentioned several times...Unless I misunderstood your messages? I can send you pics of all the messages you sent to me. There are other messages aside from this one.

"no need to disassemble yours.

yes, the 500 and 250 carbs are quite similar, made by Keihin, my full refurb on either entails 5 hours of labor....the same ultrasonic, sodablast, etc etc.

Let me finish your set and we'll discuss trade ins. Refurb pics will follow in thread. i'm doing yardwork while daylight, will do carbs tonight."
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Old June 15th, 2022, 07:05 PM   #24
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Anyone know the part # for the o rings that go on the idle jets? I think that's what they are called. They are the ones that are turned 2.5 turns out.
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Old June 15th, 2022, 07:12 PM   #25
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pilot screw orings, can drop a couple in the mail if you like

otherwise 92055-1002
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Old June 15th, 2022, 08:20 PM   #26
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pilot screw orings, can drop a couple in the mail if you like

otherwise 92055-1002
Would that fit my '04, 250?
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Old June 16th, 2022, 06:51 AM   #27
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uhhh, yup. PM your address please.
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Old June 16th, 2022, 09:13 AM   #28
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uhhh, yup. PM your address please.
Messaged.

Thank you.
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Old June 16th, 2022, 12:55 PM   #29
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going with next mail pickup
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Old June 16th, 2022, 01:39 PM   #30
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Thanks!!!
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Old June 16th, 2022, 04:24 PM   #31
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YQW
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Old June 26th, 2022, 08:31 AM   #32
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I am ready to sell this thing.
I don't know if the quality of gas overall has gone down so bad that the "fresh" gas won't last more than a week in the tank. I can take out the carbs and clean them for the 30th time and I know it will turn on after each time that I clean the carbs but I also should not have to take them apart once a week to clean either.

Any suggestions? Feedback?
It has turned on everytime after I clean the carbs and put fresh gas but after a few days, it won't turn on anymore.

Maybe it's time to go FI?
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Old June 26th, 2022, 06:09 PM   #33
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Is the tank at all dirty? Seems like you might be contaminating them(carbs)
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Old June 27th, 2022, 12:55 PM   #34
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new inline filter between tank & carbs?
did you scrub hidden secret carb passages with brushes?
separate carbs & replace fuel-rail O-rings?
poke out all bleed holes in emulsion tubes & pilot screw with wire?
ultrasonic soak?
micro soda-blast everything?
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Old June 27th, 2022, 01:44 PM   #35
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new inline filter between tank & carbs?
did you scrub hidden secret carb passages with brushes?
separate carbs & replace fuel-rail O-rings?
poke out all bleed holes in emulsion tubes & pilot screw with wire?
ultrasonic soak?
micro soda-blast everything?
All except the ultrasonic blast and micro soda blast. I don't have the equipment for that.
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Old June 27th, 2022, 03:12 PM   #36
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All except the ultrasonic blast and micro soda blast. I don't have the equipment for that.
If you look at diagram of hidden secret passages: http://n4mwd.blogspot.com/2013/10/se...-passages.html

You'll see there's many right-angle branches inside carb body. Can't get brush around those corners. Dried petrol deposits there will attract new deposits after week or two of sitting around. Really need ultrasonic soak micro soda-blasting for complete cleaning job. Then bike will run like brand-new off showroom floor.
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Old June 27th, 2022, 05:10 PM   #37
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All except the ultrasonic blast and micro soda blast. I don't have the equipment for that.
at your service, if you need be or are interested
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Old July 3rd, 2022, 02:14 PM   #38
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Water in the gas tank. I took the gas out and some orange colored liquid was in there. Took the carbs out and they were really gunked up. Have them in the dip cleaner at the moment. Bad part is that the gas filter for the petcock is loose in the tank somewhere.
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Old July 3rd, 2022, 04:44 PM   #39
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You can use acetone to remove water. It's both polar and non-polar solvent.

Can leave petcock screen in tank, won't hurt anything. Use external inline filtre so you can regular inspect how clogged it is. I got bag/10 from off-road shoppe for nothing and change out every 2-yrs.

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Old July 18th, 2022, 09:38 AM   #40
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Still no start.
Emptied tank, took out gas and water, cleaned carbs, petcock, let everything air dry in the Texas heat all day.

Fresh gas, turns over and all but it's like the gas won't combust.
Could there be water inside my engine?

And if so, how can I take it out?
Is my bike beyond a reasonable cost to repair?
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