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Old April 19th, 2014, 08:08 PM   #1
skrymir69
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Won't stay running after warming up

Hi, sorry to have to use my first post to ask for help, but it seems like if i can get help anywhere on the net, it is here.

Ok. So I have a 2003 EX 250R that I picked up for cheap because the tank and carbs were gummed up.
I cleaned the tank and pulled and cleaned the carbs.
The bike starts up and rides awesome for about 10 minutes. After the temp climbs to about 1/4 of the way, the engine starts to get rough, and it will die. After this happens, it wont start up until the next day.

So far I have checked that the battery. 13.5 volts running, 11.5 cranking over. 12.7 in on position.

Petcock is working correctly. Only supplies fuel when there is vacuum.

After it died on me last time I pulled one of the drains from the carb and the bowl had fuel. Also I ran it with the gas cap open and it still does the same thing.

Only thing I still have to check for is spark, but I am not sure that could be the problem with it running so well up till it dies.

Any Ideas?
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Old April 20th, 2014, 05:56 AM   #2
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Have you adjusted the idle speed?

The idle speed can be adjusted by turning the idle adjust knob, which is located on the left side, right under the carburetor. The idle speed should be adjusted (after the bike is completely warmed) to 1300 (+/- 100) rpm.

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Old April 20th, 2014, 07:09 AM   #3
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If it was gunked up you may need to clean the idle jets and passages again As well as fit a fuel filter (cheap as chips.)

I had a rusty tank and it took 3 cleans in the end even after fitting the filter.
It is a PITA getting the carbs out but the more you do it the faster you get soon it is no more hassle than, say, moving house LoL
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Old April 20th, 2014, 09:02 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBlue1 View Post
Have you adjusted the idle speed?

The idle speed can be adjusted by turning the idle adjust knob, which is located on the left side, right under the carburetor. The idle speed should be adjusted (after the bike is completely warmed) to 1300 (+/- 100) rpm.

Thanks yep, I have adjusted it down and up. The adjustment works fine. Its just a problem after it warms up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjinsky View Post
If it was gunked up you may need to clean the idle jets and passages again As well as fit a fuel filter (cheap as chips.)

I had a rusty tank and it took 3 cleans in the end even after fitting the filter.
It is a PITA getting the carbs out but the more you do it the faster you get soon it is no more hassle than, say, moving house LoL
Ok. I will pull them again. I dont believe I checked the inlet finger screen(didnt know there was one until I read about them on here). The carbs looked pretty clean last time.
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Old April 20th, 2014, 09:35 AM   #5
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sounds like a bad ignition coil

runs well when its cold but when it gets hot it starts sputtering -> coil issues.
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Old April 20th, 2014, 09:50 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by skrymir69 View Post
.... I have adjusted it down and up. The adjustment works fine. Its just a problem after it warms up.
Pull your plugs an see what they look like, also observe your exhaust smoke and a smell of unburned gas. An engine that performs better when cold but then it's performance drops as it warms up, can also be typical of a engine that's running too rich.

Any other mods to the bike? Carbs, airfilter, exhaust?
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Old April 20th, 2014, 11:04 AM   #7
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sounds like a bad ignition coil

runs well when its cold but when it gets hot it starts sputtering -> coil issues.
I could see one bad coil, but both?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBlue1 View Post
Pull your plugs an see what they look like, also observe your exhaust smoke and a smell of unburned gas. An engine that performs better when cold but then it's performance drops as it warms up, can also be typical of a engine that's running too rich.

Any other mods to the bike? Carbs, airfilter, exhaust?
I will check the plugs again. They were the correct nice even tan when I replaced the old ones. The bike is bone stock. But i am thinking of pulling the California emission.
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Old April 20th, 2014, 11:09 AM   #8
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do a spark check on both cylinders after it has warmed up and wont run

also, what kind of oil is in it? it is the correct weight, right?
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Old April 20th, 2014, 11:19 AM   #9
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Have you put in any fresh fuel since having these symptoms?
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Old April 20th, 2014, 11:34 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by alex.s View Post
do a spark check on both cylinders after it has warmed up and wont run

also, what kind of oil is in it? it is the correct weight, right?
Not sure on the oil. I was going to change it after it was running correctly.

I will check the spark after I get it warmed up. But i am thinking of tearing into the carbs anyway

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Have you put in any fresh fuel since having these symptoms?
I cleaned and flushed the tank. The fuel is new.
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Old April 20th, 2014, 11:48 AM   #11
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also, what kind of oil is in it? it is the correct weight, right?
To be honest I don't think oil weight is going to make a jot of difference, particularly not on a warm engine.
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Old April 20th, 2014, 11:50 AM   #12
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To be honest I don't think oil weight is going to make a jot of difference, particularly not on a warm engine.
no, but having disgusting old oil in an engine that you are already having issues with is a combination that leads to a blown crank.
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Old April 20th, 2014, 11:53 AM   #13
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....So far I have checked that the battery. 13.5 volts running, 11.5 cranking over. 12.7 in on position.
....Any Ideas?
What's the voltage after the bike dies?
When checking the electrical system, is the voltage going up with revs or are you checking it @ idle speed?

If the charging voltage is kept between the 14-15 volts, the charging system is considered to be working normally.

If the charging voltage does not rise as the engine speed increases, then the regulator/rectifier is defective or the alternator output is insufficient for the loads.
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Old April 20th, 2014, 11:59 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBlue1 View Post
What's the voltage after the bike dies?
When checking the electrical system, is the voltage going up with revs or are you checking it @ idle speed?

If the charging voltage is kept between the 14-15 volts, the charging system is considered to be working normally.

If the charging voltage does not rise as the engine speed increases, then the regulator/rectifier is defective or the alternator output is insufficient for the loads.
I will recheck the voltage. It was 13.5 while running. I did not check if it went up while revving. I assumed the battery was good because the voltage was the same after the bike died when I first started it.

Thanks for the help. I really appreciate it.

Last futzed with by skrymir69; April 20th, 2014 at 12:00 PM. Reason: another thought
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Old April 20th, 2014, 12:04 PM   #15
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To be honest I don't think oil weight is going to make a jot of difference, particularly not on a warm engine.
Welcome to Ninjette.org, Scott !!!

An engine that stalls in traffic is a real hazard !!!

You must be methodical about eliminating possibilities, or you will be chasing your tail for weeks.
Considering things that grow with temperature:

Does the engine rotates freely after it quits?
(Worn rings/scratched cylinder wall cannot keep lubricant film and over-heat and expand until locking the piston or cylinder's cooling problems)

Do all the valves have the proper gap?
(Kill compression when hot-stem grows and lacking cold gap)

Does the pick up coil have the proper gap?
(Too close to the rotor when hot)

Do sparks jump after the engine quits?
(Sensitive to temperature CDI or coils)

Is the level of fuel inside both bowls per specs?
(Less intake air when hot = Over-rich mix)
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Old April 20th, 2014, 12:06 PM   #16
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Agree with motofool on valve clearances. Once the seat contact time decreases on a tight valve it heats up and expands fast. though I would expect it to cool down and contract enough to start okay after a few mins. If the tank is coming off for carbs might as well check valve clearances and plug condition whilst you are at it. If you find a simple tight valve it could save a lot of work.

Last futzed with by Ninjinsky; April 20th, 2014 at 01:35 PM. Reason: Why worry? I'm not here for an argument :)
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Old April 20th, 2014, 12:37 PM   #17
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The motor does spin fine when turning it over after it dies. I dont think the oils is really a problem. If it was to thick, the problem would be when it was cold, not hot.

I will run it 1 last time before I pull the carbs, and do a quick vacuum leak check, voltage check and spark check.

I haven't gone as far as checking the valves yet.

Thanks for the ideas. You guys have given me a few things to check I hadn't thought about.

Thanks. I am heading to the parts store for a few things. I will pick up oil while i am at it. Best just to eliminate that.
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Old April 20th, 2014, 03:31 PM   #18
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Is the Petcock open? Maybe it's just starving the bowls
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Old April 20th, 2014, 04:48 PM   #19
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Is the Petcock open? Maybe it's just starving the bowls
The petcock seems fine. I put an inline filter on the fuel line so i could see if fuel was getting to the carbs and it is always full. Plus I pulled the drain plug on the right carb and got a ton of gas out of it, when it was not starting after getting hot.

I didn't have a chance to mess with the bike today. My wife's car needed new brakes and I found that the Big O tire store cross threaded 2 of the lugs on one wheel. I would think that the first thing they should teach those guys is not to start the lugs with the impact wrench.
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Old April 20th, 2014, 09:31 PM   #20
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Ok. Just had a little while to mess with it. I ran it until it died. It seemed to take a little while longer this time, so I am thinking its carbs. I pulled the plugs after it died and they are both pretty rich, 1 is a little richer than the other. Would that cause the bike to die? Another reason I think its running rich is that I don't have to use the choke at all, even down to about 65 degrees out.

Also I pulled the oil filler plug and I do smell fuel. When I pulled apart the petcock, the 2 rubber diaphrams were not torn, so I assumed it was good.
What should I be looking for.

So I think I am chasing 2 problems.
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Old April 21st, 2014, 01:46 AM   #21
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Float height and float valves first port of call then, If the height is correct and the fuel valve is clean I would look at changing the float valves because the tips are rubber and get a groove after a while. Look at the tips with a magnifying glass, and also check the little sprung plunger is moving freely they are not expensive. From the slow nature of the problem it looks like poor seating rather than a stuck valve which would manifest fast.
If there is substantial fuel in the oil it will need changing and disposing of carefully for obvious reasons. The only other thing that will do that (assuming the jetting and main needle height is a severely clogged air filter but with fuel in the oil I'd go for float valve.
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Old April 21st, 2014, 12:10 PM   #22
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I went ahead and ordered 2 carb rebuild kits and a petcock. Should be here by Friday. So in the mean time I am going to change the oil and pull/soak the carbs.
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Old April 27th, 2014, 07:51 PM   #23
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I had the bike all apart so I adjusted the valves. I went ahead and rebuilt the carbs. One of the float valves had a big piece of junk in it. Also the PO had the mixture screws about 5 turns out instead of 2.5.
Everything is back together but I am going to pick up a couple of vacuum gauges so I can sync the carbs, then adjust the mixture.

Does anyone know what vacuum range the gauges should be. How high is the vacuum on this bike 15PSI ?

Thanks again
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Old April 27th, 2014, 08:19 PM   #24
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Old April 27th, 2014, 09:15 PM   #25
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.........One of the float valves had a big piece of junk in it..........Does anyone know what vacuum range the gauges should be. How high is the vacuum on this bike 15PSI ?
I would say that was your problem: leaky valve leading to overflowing bowl.

That explain the different look of the plugs and the the leak down into the crankcase via intake valves (when stopped), as well as the engine dying after hot (less mass of air goes in = even richer mix).

I don't know the absolute value of the vacuum, we use differential vacuum to synchronize:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do_...carburetors%3F
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Old April 28th, 2014, 03:59 AM   #26
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I had the bike all apart so I adjusted the valves. I went ahead and rebuilt the carbs. One of the float valves had a big piece of junk in it. Also the PO had the mixture screws about 5 turns out instead of 2.5.
Everything is back together but I am going to pick up a couple of vacuum gauges so I can sync the carbs, then adjust the mixture.

Does anyone know what vacuum range the gauges should be. How high is the vacuum on this bike 15PSI ?

Thanks again
As I recall mine were in the 10 inHg range certainly not very high on the gauges (davida)
If everything is in order then your aim is just to balance the gauges rather than measure an actual vac level. Signs of trouble are things like one needle steady and the other trembling. (I am assuming that while they were off you set the throttles to more or less balanced by eye)
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Old April 28th, 2014, 06:00 AM   #27
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If you have a see thru inline fuel filter, I bet that is your problem. Search for one of my old posts about fuel filters. The filter used on the 250 is a gravity fed filter and most of the clear filters are for higher pressure fuel systems. I had the same problem (clear filter) and replaced it with a reusable metal filter and haven't had the problem again.
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Old April 28th, 2014, 10:11 AM   #28
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.... I put an inline filter on the fuel line so i could see if fuel was getting to the carbs and it is always full. Plus I pulled the drain plug on the right carb and got a ton of gas out of it, when it was not starting after getting hot.
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....If you have a see thru inline fuel filter, I bet that is your problem.
+1

I had a similar issue a long time back. The fuel filter could not keep of the flow of fuel to the carbs after a while. At low speeds it was good. After it warmed up and higher speeds, the filter decreased the flow of fuel.

Also if the fuel lines are too long it may slow the gravity feed. lines should be as direct as possible to the carb.

I took this filter off and it's been fine ever since. Most inline filters work and some don't.
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Old May 1st, 2014, 04:08 PM   #29
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Ok, Update. I followed the instructions on the wiki for tuning the carb.
1. adjust valves. (I figures what the heck since i am in there).
So, i put the bike back together with everything set the way you need it for first start (2 and 1/2 twists on the mixture and 17mm on the floats).

It runs good enough to take it around the block and warm it up so i can do the vacuum sync of the carbs. Then adjust the mixture. I havent yet, cause the valve noise bothers me.

But I think the valves are noisier than before I did the adjustment. I set the intakes at 4 and the exhaust at 5, right in the mid range and double checked them each 2 times.

Do the valves click more when too tight or too loose?

I am thinking I may need to go back and redo that part. Its not that big a deal, I can get the valve cover off in about 10 min now.
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Old May 1st, 2014, 05:49 PM   #30
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...........Do the valves click more when too tight or too loose?.........
The valves click more when loose, but they get burned when too tight.
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Old May 1st, 2014, 06:36 PM   #31
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I went out and checked a couple of things that I found on searching the forums here.

The clutch cage doesnt seem to be the problem, I did the check and the noise stayed.

Next I pulled the cam chain tensioner. It looks pretty much new. There was no grease on it. But it looks like I am through for the night, because the little set screw for the tensioner was seized in there and i needed to use vice grips to get it loose. Now I have to go buy a screw and dont want to mess with that tonight.

Is it a good idea to replace the tensioner springs?

Anyway. I did the members adjustment instead of the factory adjustment on the valves, and I think I am going to redo it anyway. Someone suggested going the max settings for the valves, I had em right in the middle. So I will go .004 for intake and .006 for exhaust.

Another quick question. If its running to lean, can that cause the valve noise?
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Old May 1st, 2014, 07:24 PM   #32
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I went out and checked a couple of things that I found on searching the forums here.

The clutch cage doesnt seem to be the problem, I did the check and the noise stayed.

Next I pulled the cam chain tensioner. It looks pretty much new. There was no grease on it. But it looks like I am through for the night, because the little set screw for the tensioner was seized in there and i needed to use vice grips to get it loose. Now I have to go buy a screw and dont want to mess with that tonight.

Is it a good idea to replace the tensioner springs?

Anyway. I did the members adjustment instead of the factory adjustment on the valves, and I think I am going to redo it anyway. Someone suggested going the max settings for the valves, I had em right in the middle. So I will go .004 for intake and .006 for exhaust.

Another quick question. If its running to lean, can that cause the valve noise?
Lube that CCT and reinstall.

Don't sweat the gap, some is good enough (engine must be really cold = wait several hours after running).

Noise and lean mix are not related.
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