2006 250R, cranks but no start

[frostyflammable]

Man all this talk of the H2 / H3 I had to do some research on them... now I want one lol, love the 80s styling of these bikes. For sure want to add a 500R to the garage as that was my very first bike I learned to ride on, still upset I sold that bike long time ago.

To answer some questions... The battery is brand new, I purchased it maybe three weeks ago just to use on this bike and had it sitting on a trickle charger between trying to start the bike. I mean I am not saying the battery is good, I had brand new batteries that were bad. I have another battery I will test with for sure.

I tried to wiggle the rings and slowly but surely they are releasing and going to the shape I expect them to be, as stated does seem a lot of burnt oil all around it. There will def be some good cleaning required.

I did order some new piston rings and the two gaskets (cylinder base and head), I think I can reuse the valve cover gaskets as the manual calls for liquid gasket be applied anyway. Hopefully these parts will start to arrive in about a week or so, in the mean time I will do some cleaning when I am back where the bike is currently sitting.

On a side note, has anyone used oven cleaner to clean of the deposits from the valves and pistons?

Thanks.

[Triple Jim]

Oven cleaner is usually lye based, and lye tends to corrode aluminum. It might work, but I've never needed to try it.

[frostyflammable]

Ahh, never thought about that. I may just try some vinegar and baking soda see what it does.

—Dan

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by frostyflammable

(SNIP)
On a side note, has anyone used oven cleaner to clean of the deposits from the valves and pistons?

Thanks.

I use oven cleaner daily to degrease aluminum parts, but I would use something else for cleaning the piston.

Probably use a solvent based cleaner to soak the piston in.

Oven cleaner works great on oil and grease, but it will attack aluminum. Same with Purple Power and similar strong degreasers.

There are some YouTube videos showing extensive carbon removal from pistons by soaking, but I don't recall the product.

[Bob KellyIII]

Not me... though I have heard of oven cleaner being good for thick deposits
but you must get it all off immediately afterword as the acid will eat the aluminum !!!!!
I never had the guts to try it.... I just used a putty knife and screwdriver ! LOL
I also use a wire wheel in the grinder but you must be careful in the way you do that ...a wire wheel will round all the edges on aluminum real fast and that is not what you want on say a piston top, so you have to work out from the center
and never on the edge.
....
Yes the H1 and H2 Kawasaki's were the King's of their time... there were thousands of them out there... and they were fast... powerful and relitively light.
The power to weight ratio was the best and probably still is tops even today.
...
Obviously, use a HIGH HEAT silicone for your gasket stuff... the High heat Silicone I use is RTV High Heat Silicone I pick up at walmart or autozone. (walmart is 1/2 the price) it's RED, don't use the blue stuff on anything but side plates.
I use RTV silicone even on new gaskets especially on water cooled engines.
I hate water leaks !!!!! a thin wet layer (fresh, not dried) on both sides of the gasket keeps it from being a mess... put it in and clamp it down fast so it will dry in place.... don't coat the gaskets and wait till the next day....
....
as a side note... when I got my 250R it only ran on 1 cylinder...so I pulled the carbs and cleaned them I found that one carburetor had the main jet and pilot jet completely plugged with rust from the tank....
so I did the Kreem thing to the tank after taking out the petcock and sending unit and covering the holes with 2" wide packing tape...that worked great !
I should have plugged the 3 lines coming out of the tank for vents as it leaked as I sloshed it around ! ...live and learn !
.....
Bob.........

[Bob KellyIII]

another gasket goop I use is copper coat put a nut in the can so it stirs up the copper and shake a long time then apply but go sparingly that stuff will get into oil lines easily !!!!! not good !!!!
that stuff is great with cardboard gaskets but not so hot on things like head gaskets as you can't get the parts to separate afterwords ! use RTV on them.
...
Bob.......

[Bob KellyIII]

Triple Jim:.... to answer your question about the suspension on my 2012 250R
.... I have no idea if the suspension has been messed with, I expect it might have thicker oil in the forks as they just don't compress at all...
when riding and slowing down from speed using alot of front brake the front might compress an inch at most.... it's extremely hard suspension !
and the rear is as low as I can get it... and I can bounce on the seat with all my weight and it only goes down a small amount.... that is not what I am used to... I am used to bouncing my entire weight on the seat and getting a big sag... needless to say i find the suspension extremely hard on this Ninja !
does it sound normal to you ? I have no idea what normal is for these things !
......
Bob....

[Triple Jim]

Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII

does it sound normal to you ?

No, they're not that stiffly sprung from the factory. Someone with a newgen will need to help here, but I think yours has been modified to make it stiffer.

When I got my pregen, if I did a hard stop the front would bottom out. If it hit a medium sized bump the rear would bottom. I got a newgen rear shock, which cured the rear, and new springs for the front. But the newgen rear spring didn't make it overly stiff. It's about perfect now.

Static sag should be around 25-ish% of travel for mild street use. What's yours measure?

[Bob KellyIII]

Ok...thanks.... I'll start by looking in the manual and see what the fork oil weight is supposed to be and go thinner LOL.....
.... it rides like a 10 ton truck...every pebble you run over you feel it !
it's silly to have it that hard !
....
later !
Bob........

[Triple Jim]

Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII

Ok...thanks.... I'll start by looking in the manual and see what the fork oil weight is supposed to be and go thinner LOL.....
.... it rides like a 10 ton truck...every pebble you run over you feel it !
it's silly to have it that hard !

Pay attention to the amount of oil in the fork too. It may be so full that there's very little air space. Before you drain the tubes, measure the level from the top with a dipstick.

[Bob KellyIII]

OK thanks , in all my life i've only dealt with front forks once or twice...
never on a regular basis ! so I am unfamiliar with them... I appreciate the help......
Bob......

[thedrewski86]

Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII

OK thanks , in all my life i've only dealt with front forks once or twice...
never on a regular basis ! so I am unfamiliar with them... I appreciate the help......
Bob......

Triple Jim is right, it really sounds like your forks are nearly hydrolocked. Not only is it uncomfortable, but it can also do some not-so-pleasant things to your fork seals (and ruin your day). I haven't had a newgen in years, but I found it to be very soft, similar to the old ones.

[Bob KellyIII]

LOL sounds like someone Filled the forks with oil.... not knowing they take just a small amount....
....that could well be the case .... when I get around to it I'll replace the fork oil with ATF and the right amount and see if that helps.
....
Bob.....

[thedrewski86]

Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII

LOL sounds like someone Filled the forks with oil.... not knowing they take just a small amount....
....that could well be the case .... when I get around to it I'll replace the fork oil with ATF and the right amount and see if that helps.
....
Bob.....

I was a believer in ATF until my bike mechanic buddy told me flatly: "use fork oil in forks. Use ATF in automatic transmissions". I know fork oil is simply oil at a specific weight, but I took his advice. It's not like ATF was any cheaper.

[Bob KellyIII]

well it SHOULD be alot cheaper ! i've seen fork oil for over $10.00 FOR 10 OZ.
YOU HAVE 2 FORKS TO FILL SO THAT IS $20.00 Just to change the oil in the forks ? what's the deal it's just oil folks !
so I just came back from walmart where I got a quart of full synthetic ATF from Valvoline and 3 measuring things that will help get the measuring correct.
I lost my handy dandy measuring beaker like thing I had used for 50 years in the Ranch fire so come time to replace it, and I couldn't find squat !
so I went to the kitchen area and got a few things that should do the trick.
ATF is the best refined oil you can buy.... BUT it does have limitations
it's a bit thin for weight oil on the lathe but I add about 50% of 30wt and it works great. it's a fairly good penetrating oil and rust preventive. but it is thin.....and it's not an oil you want to leave on your hands as it has alot of detergents in it....in other words, acid ! wash your hands good afterword.
....
I'll put the ATF in the forks and see if that makes any difference.
....I have a gut feeling the fairings and all will have to come off again....
....i wonder if I could put a ZIPPER on those things ? LOL.....
( I'm thinking Pins and Keepers would be a good thing in about 4 places on each side...pull the pins and undue the 2 screws on the tank and one more pin for the bottom.... and pop the side off.... that would make it alot easier !)
... um,eh...it's a thought ! I like them on there or I wouldn't keep putting them back on ...but theirs gott'a be a better way to attach them than that !
....even if it's just studs where the screws are now and then a spring clip to keep the nut on.....whatever !
.....
back into the shop with it ! Sigh !
.....
Bob..........

[Bob KellyIII]

I got curious... I went out to the Ninja and fired her up got it warm and in the process, I bounced all my weight on the front forks seeing how far they would go down.... to my astonishment they went down a good 6" I was totally taken by surprise !!! as I am sure for the first 3 rides I could not do that....
but the bike did fall on it's side in the shop after the last ride and that alone could have allowed an air bubble to escape.... that is the only explanation I can come up with....it's either that or this o'l man is loosing it big time ! LOL
.....
I'm going to ride it like that and see if it's softer riding before I tackle changing the fork oil....
the roads around here are not like glass, they are rough, even for paved roads
but in the car they do feel real smoothe ...but they ain't on the bike !
....but maybe just maybe my memory is correct and the forks didn't compress but maybe an inch or less but now they do......
that is a weird one ! .... I'm still scratching my head on that one !
but hay..... stranger things have happened !
......I have seen seized forks before, had some on an old DT1-250 Yamaha
that were just wore out.... but I do not think that is the case here those forks show no sign of ware !
.....
Bob....

[Triple Jim]

Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII

I bounced all my weight on the front forks seeing how far they would go down.... to my astonishment they went down a good 6"

That's really good! That's 1.3" more than they're supposed to be able to go!

[JayVapes]

nice

[Bob KellyIII]

Jim that was just a guess.... LOL.... but they did go down a long way, what I'ed expect actually.... it felt right. it did not do that before... i'm sure of it !.
....
so now that their not Hydrolocked I expect the next ride to be much smoother !
hehehehehe .... the disadvantages of not knowing the bike at all !
I just need some ambition to take it for a ride now....
....
Bob.......

[Bob KellyIII]

so ...Frostyflamable ! have you made any progress on that engine ? or are you still waiting for parts to show up ?
Bob....

[frostyflammable]

Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII

so ...Frostyflamable ! have you made any progress on that engine ? or are you still waiting for parts to show up ?
Bob....

Waiting for parts to show up, the rings should be here early next week according to tracking. The gaskets shortly after. This weekend the plan is to continue start cleaning all the buildup off the parts.

Thanks
Dan

[frostyflammable]

Small update, the rings came in and I decided to start on some of the work.
Had no idea what to clean the carbon deposits with so since I had a whole gallon of WD40 I decided to use that and some Scotch Pads. That was the ticket, it cleaned them very nicely no doubt about that. The piston rings came in and after a through cleaning they went in there no problems.

I also did find the reason cylinder 2 had no or almost no compression. The intake valve closest to the timing chain is pretty bad, I am guessing at some point this engine was hydro locked, either from outside water or maybe a coolant leak. Would also explain when I drained the oil it just did not look right to me, and I am pretty sure the level was over full. Things are starting to make sense in this engine.
I did also lap the rest of the valves to verify they have a seal and after lapping all of them had a nice sealing groove. Per the service manual I did measure the valves for wobble, diameter etc and all was within spec.

The cylinder liners were also hones and they came out good enough, no high or low spots I can feel, so I re-installed the pistons into the cylinder sleeves.

Everything has been cleaned up from old gasket material to other crud that was built up. I did also check to make sure the sealing surfaces were straight and true and from my unexperienced eye and a straight edge all seems well.

Adding pics to show progress. I am still waiting on the gaskets to come in and now I will have to find a new intake valve to order.

Thanks,
Dan

[frostyflammable]

Small update, the rings came in and I decided to start on some of the work.
Had no idea what to clean the carbon deposits with so since I had a whole gallon of WD40 I decided to use that and some Scotch Pads. That was the ticket, it cleaned them very nicely no doubt about that. The piston rings came in and after a through cleaning they went in there no problems.

I also did find the reason cylinder 2 had no or almost no compression. The intake valve closest to the timing chain is pretty bad, I am guessing at some point this engine was hydro locked, either from outside water or maybe a coolant leak. Would also explain when I drained the oil it just did not look right to me, and I am pretty sure the level was over full. Things are starting to make sense in this engine.
I did also lap the rest of the valves to verify they have a seal and after lapping all of them had a nice sealing groove. Per the service manual I did measure the valves for wobble, diameter etc and all was within spec.

The cylinder liners were also hones and they came out good enough, no high or low spots I can feel, so I re-installed the pistons into the cylinder sleeves.

Everything has been cleaned up from old gasket material to other crud that was built up. I did also check to make sure the sealing surfaces were straight and true and from my unexperienced eye and a straight edge all seems well.

I am still waiting on the gaskets to come in and now I will have to find a new intake valve to order.

Thanks,
Dan

[frostyflammable]

Added the images... for some reason when I add the imaged on the original post, a message comes up that goes away way too fast to read and then it doesn't post. Not sure what I am doing wrong but here they are.

[Bob KellyIII]

Wow that did clean up NICE !!!!!
so.... what in gods name bent the valve ????
bent valve usually means piston ! no marks on the piston so is it not bent ? but
burnt or carboned up ? ( sorry I read through it pirty fast LOL)
sounds like the latter !....
you did very good work cleaning up those pistons ! WELL DONE !!!!
....
check your rods and wrist pin bearings real close by pulling up and down on the piston before you put the cylinders back on.... turn the crank and push up and down on the piston as you slowly turn the crank....
I found one engine that was making noise and that is how I found the problem, the needle bearing on the wrist pin was missing a bearing ! ....
so I had to replace it... the wrist pin was still good.... dunno where that bearing went.... it wasn't there when I got the thing, I flushed the bottom end and everything looking for it .... never found it !
....
your going to have that thing running pirty soon buddy !
it's looking good !
Bob........

[Triple Jim]

The valve in the photo looks like a typical burned valve. The clearance goes to zero and it starts not closing all the way. The hot gasses then erode it more and more until it looks like yours.

[Bob KellyIII]

yah Bob put your glasses on ! LOL definitely a burnt valve.... so the cause is found !.... anyone got an old valve to send him ???
Bob........

[frostyflammable]

Thanks, yeah this is my first OHC engine I am taking apart so I am learning this in the process.

Valve is not bent actually, looks like it burnt off as far as I can tell. I think this engine had overheated in the past or somehow it had a small leak and the exhaust gases burnt the valve. Just a guess on my part.

I did not take the bottom end apart, however I did check the rod by trying to move it to see if there was any play on the crank, could not feel anything but I did not put any plastigage in there to check clearances. I am hoping they are still good .

Next Friday more parts should come in so hopefully I can start putting it back together.

Thanks,
Dan

[Bob KellyIII]

Thanks Dan.... well ya don't use Plastigage much on a bike as the rods are pressed in with the assembly of the crank you cant get to them !!!!
Yep burnt valves happen even with normal riding some times... it's nothing to worry about I think, just re assemble the monster now and she'll Run !!!!
GOOD work !
Bob..........

[frostyflammable]

Looks like eBay was the answer. Got an used valve for $14 delivered to my door.
Hopefully once all these parts come in assembly can begin.

—Dan

[Bob KellyIII]

Kool Keep us informed of the progress please !
Do you have the engine out of the bike or just the top end ?
......
Bob........

[frostyflammable]

Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII

Kool Keep us informed of the progress please !
Do you have the engine out of the bike or just the top end ?
......
Bob........

Just the top end, felt too lazy to take all of it out lol.

—Dan

[DannoXYZ]

Originally Posted by frostyflammable

Looks like eBay was the answer. Got an used valve for $14 delivered to my door.
Hopefully once all these parts come in assembly can begin.

—Dan

Don't just clean up symptoms without fixing cause of issues. Because it'll happen again.

You need valve-job on those worn-out seats. The metal used on these seats are really soft compared to other engines. When contact-ring gets too wide, pressure is lowered and sealing compromised. Very common mistake when people rebuild is to just lap valves into seat thinking this will improve valve-sealing. But only if seat is cut first to narrow down contact-ring. Otherwise you're just pre-wearing out your valves and seats.

It's like shaving all tread off your tyres to make it slick to "improve" grip. You've just reduced 5000-mile life-span to just 10-miles before cords will show.

Also seats wears out faster than valve-tips, rockers or cam-lobes. This means as engine wears with mileage, valve-clearance actually decreases. This reduces contact time for valves to cool through seats. Also causes lower pressure on seats and lets carbon build up which lowers cooling even further. So original cause of this issue was probably lack of maintenance.

Without doing proper valve-job, you'll easily fry valves and have to pull that head again soon.



NOTE: valves also have hard nitride surface-coating. So best not to grind them too much. If you see any silver showing on exhaust-valve, it's worn-out and is no good to use. Margin width on valves is important for flow characteristics. Worn-out or overly lapped valves will have too thin margin-width.

[frostyflammable]

Appreciate the info DannoXYZ, I will make sure that the seat is within service specs. I do have a valve seat cutter if it does measure outside of tolerances.

I only did enough lapping to make sure the sealing surface is still there, most of the valves did not need any lapping so I just did a quick turn or two with the fine compound to take any dirt of I missed.

--Dan

[DannoXYZ]

Oh good! Just needs bottom cut. Make sure contact-ring is at narrow-end of spec.

[frostyflammable]

Just wondering. I plan on taking the swing arm off to lube / replace the bearings… since I will this off is there a chain I can buy that doesn’t require a master link? I currently do not have a chain riveting tool but do plan on picking one up but figured since I’ll have the swing arm off might as well get a chain without a master I have to put on. Long shot I know.
For my other off road toys I always go with DID chain which has the clip type master link, for this I’d feel safer with a rivet type really.

—Dan

[Bob KellyIII]

LOL.... and here I just want to get RID of that endless chain. on mine.
it's such a Pain in the Ass to change sprockets with it on there !
but now that I have the sprockets on it , its showing signs of getting old !
I'm going with a master link chain.... WHY would you ever want a chain you have to cut off to get it off of there ? ( or remove the swing arm)
their no better than a regular D.I.D. chain.... safty wire the clip on the master link if your worried about it coming off !
.....sorry I do not know of a linkless chain you can buy.
Bob........

[Triple Jim]

In my experience, there are chain brands that give you a lot more for your money than DID.

[Bob KellyIII]

which ones Jim ?
....Bob....

[Triple Jim]

RK is one. I've been using them for 6 or 8 years.