first post/need some help

reignman · March 24th, 2013, 09:44 AM

Hey my name is Raymond. Brand new to this forum. My sister owns a 1990 Ninja 250. She bought it about a year ago not running. The carbs were just caked with old fuel. I got those cleaned out and replaced the fuel needles and got it running. It ran pretty good for a few months. Then the tank began to rust through...so we got a new (used) tank and i repainted the bike. while it was apart being painted i did some little maintenance. replaced the brake pads, clutch plates and decided to adjust the valves. upon adjusting the valves i noticed a rocker arm was broken on one of the intake valves. so i ordered a replacement and get that installed. i cheated and didnt remove the intake cam to install. with the rocker at the minimum adjustment i was able to lightly depress the valve and slide it in. so adjusted all the valves which, except for one intake valve, were all tight. got it all back together and it turns over but wont start. cleaned the carbs and replaced the spark plugs. and it started, kinda. its always had a weird clunk at idle but it seemed worse now. i only let it run for like 30 seconds or so but i noticed the left cylinder and header were getting warm but the right was still ice cold. pulled the plug out of the right to double check it was sparking and it had good spark. forgot to unplug the left wire when i hit the starter though and it surprisingly fired up easier than normal without the right plug even in. also, the right plug was wet with fuel so i know it isnt a carb issue. yesterday i checked the timing and its spot on. when i turn the engine over manually its hard to turn when the valves on the right cylinder are depressing and then it kind of springs back around through the end of the stroke. sorry for the long winded first post lol i just dont know what else to check

alex.s · March 24th, 2013, 09:53 AM

i'm wondering why the rocker broke... when it broke... and what other damage was done when it broke... is that rocker arm in the cylinder that isn't firing?

reignman · March 24th, 2013, 10:12 AM

im not sure when it broke. and yes the broken rocker is on the same side as the cylinder that isn't firing. it was the inside intake valve on the right cylinder. it didn't look like there was any damage to the cam but idk what else to check on the top side or if i need to take the head of and inspect the the valves and cylinder

Motofool · March 24th, 2013, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reignman

.......... i cheated and didnt remove the intake cam to install. with the rocker at the minimum adjustment i was able to lightly depress the valve and slide it in. so adjusted all the valves which, except for one intake valve, were all tight. .............

Welcome to the site, Raymond !!!

There is no need to remove the cam shafts in the pre-gen models in order to adjust the valves or to replace a rocker.
If you did, you must have followed the specified sequence of bolts' torque down in order to avoid damage to the bearings.

The right cylinder doesn't have compression.
The reason could be:
A broken piston.
Worn rings.
Non-sealing valves.

I recommend a leak down test before going into surgery:

http://www.dansmc.com/leakdown.htm

reignman · March 24th, 2013, 10:40 AM

ill have to find someone with a gauge or buy one to do the leak down test. so if i do find that it doesn't have compression i then begin surgery to see whats causing it to not have compression?

Motofool · March 24th, 2013, 10:53 AM

...........yes,.........or you can open the head and inspect/repair.

At least you will need to buy a new head gasket.

If you can reach and close the plug hole of the right cylinder while cranking the engine up, it is easy to feel poor compression.

If compression is good, you cannot prevent air from leaking out just by pressing with your hand against that hole.

Maybe the timing of the cam chain is off, which is a normal cause of valves hitting the pistons; I would verify that also.

I would first recheck that the clearance of all the valves remains correct.

If one or more valves don't return to the proper height, so you cannot get a good clearance reading, the valve is likely bent.
On the other hand, if the valve pops up too high, then its seat is worn out.

Hope is a minor problem and that you have a repair manual to guide you through.

reignman · March 24th, 2013, 11:00 AM

someone from the fz1 forum is sending me a manual and it should be here tomorrow. ill recheck clearances and verify that timing is correct today. thanks!! ill let you know what i find out

reignman · March 24th, 2013, 02:13 PM

re checked the timing and it is correct. i can't quite reach to plug the plug hole so ill have to wait and get a compression gauge. the intake valves on the right side, which is the problem cylinder, were loose. im pretty certain i adjusted them correctly the first time because i triple checked all of them. they weren't far off though. so should i be suspecting bent valves?

Motofool · March 24th, 2013, 05:11 PM

Great progress !

Yes, if their stem is measurably lower than the rest, they may be bent.

You may be able to hear the compression blowing through the valves during the compression stroke of that cylinder (with plug installed), if you remove the exhaust pipe.

reignman · March 24th, 2013, 05:38 PM

good idea maybe i should try putting the spark plugs back in and see how it "feels" compared to the left cylinder that i think is good

reignman · March 30th, 2013, 10:44 AM

okay so yesterday I put the spark plugs in and turned it over manually. the left cylinder is still quite and smooth throughout the cycles but the right cylinder is a different story. i can hear air blowing out somewhere when on the compression stroke. i tried holding a hose through the air box, exhaust and oil filler but i cant tell where the compression is leaking from. should i pull the head off and inspect all the valves on that side?

March 24th, 2013, 09:44 AM	#1
reignman ninjette.org member Name: Ray Location: Columbus, Oh Join Date: Mar 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Yamaha Fz1 Posts: 13	first post/need some help Hey my name is Raymond. Brand new to this forum. My sister owns a 1990 Ninja 250. She bought it about a year ago not running. The carbs were just caked with old fuel. I got those cleaned out and replaced the fuel needles and got it running. It ran pretty good for a few months. Then the tank began to rust through...so we got a new (used) tank and i repainted the bike. while it was apart being painted i did some little maintenance. replaced the brake pads, clutch plates and decided to adjust the valves. upon adjusting the valves i noticed a rocker arm was broken on one of the intake valves. so i ordered a replacement and get that installed. i cheated and didnt remove the intake cam to install. with the rocker at the minimum adjustment i was able to lightly depress the valve and slide it in. so adjusted all the valves which, except for one intake valve, were all tight. got it all back together and it turns over but wont start. cleaned the carbs and replaced the spark plugs. and it started, kinda. its always had a weird clunk at idle but it seemed worse now. i only let it run for like 30 seconds or so but i noticed the left cylinder and header were getting warm but the right was still ice cold. pulled the plug out of the right to double check it was sparking and it had good spark. forgot to unplug the left wire when i hit the starter though and it surprisingly fired up easier than normal without the right plug even in. also, the right plug was wet with fuel so i know it isnt a carb issue. yesterday i checked the timing and its spot on. when i turn the engine over manually its hard to turn when the valves on the right cylinder are depressing and then it kind of springs back around through the end of the stroke. sorry for the long winded first post lol i just dont know what else to check

March 24th, 2013, 09:53 AM	#2
alex.s wat Name: wat Location: tustin/long beach Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): wat Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 5 MOTM - Oct '12, Feb '14	i'm wondering why the rocker broke... when it broke... and what other damage was done when it broke... is that rocker arm in the cylinder that isn't firing? __________________________________________________

March 24th, 2013, 10:53 AM	#6
Motofool Daily Ninjette rider Name: Hernan Location: Florida Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250 Posts: A lot. MOTY - 2016, MOTM - Dec '12, Jan '14, Jan '15, May '16	...........yes,.........or you can open the head and inspect/repair. At least you will need to buy a new head gasket. If you can reach and close the plug hole of the right cylinder while cranking the engine up, it is easy to feel poor compression. If compression is good, you cannot prevent air from leaking out just by pressing with your hand against that hole. Maybe the timing of the cam chain is off, which is a normal cause of valves hitting the pistons; I would verify that also. I would first recheck that the clearance of all the valves remains correct. If one or more valves don't return to the proper height, so you cannot get a good clearance reading, the valve is likely bent. On the other hand, if the valve pops up too high, then its seat is worn out. Hope is a minor problem and that you have a repair manual to guide you through. __________________________________________________ *Motofool* *.................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly* "Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí

March 24th, 2013, 05:11 PM	#9
Motofool Daily Ninjette rider Name: Hernan Location: Florida Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250 Posts: A lot. MOTY - 2016, MOTM - Dec '12, Jan '14, Jan '15, May '16	Great progress ! Yes, if their stem is measurably lower than the rest, they may be bent. You may be able to hear the compression blowing through the valves during the compression stroke of that cylinder (with plug installed), if you remove the exhaust pipe. __________________________________________________ *Motofool* *.................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly* "Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí

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March 24th, 2013, 10:12 AM	#3
reignman ninjette.org member Name: Ray Location: Columbus, Oh Join Date: Mar 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Yamaha Fz1 Posts: 13	im not sure when it broke. and yes the broken rocker is on the same side as the cylinder that isn't firing. it was the inside intake valve on the right cylinder. it didn't look like there was any damage to the cam but idk what else to check on the top side or if i need to take the head of and inspect the the valves and cylinder

March 24th, 2013, 10:40 AM	#5
reignman ninjette.org member Name: Ray Location: Columbus, Oh Join Date: Mar 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Yamaha Fz1 Posts: 13	ill have to find someone with a gauge or buy one to do the leak down test. so if i do find that it doesn't have compression i then begin surgery to see whats causing it to not have compression?

March 24th, 2013, 11:00 AM	#7
reignman ninjette.org member Name: Ray Location: Columbus, Oh Join Date: Mar 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Yamaha Fz1 Posts: 13	someone from the fz1 forum is sending me a manual and it should be here tomorrow. ill recheck clearances and verify that timing is correct today. thanks!! ill let you know what i find out

March 24th, 2013, 02:13 PM	#8
reignman ninjette.org member Name: Ray Location: Columbus, Oh Join Date: Mar 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Yamaha Fz1 Posts: 13	re checked the timing and it is correct. i can't quite reach to plug the plug hole so ill have to wait and get a compression gauge. the intake valves on the right side, which is the problem cylinder, were loose. im pretty certain i adjusted them correctly the first time because i triple checked all of them. they weren't far off though. so should i be suspecting bent valves?

March 24th, 2013, 05:38 PM	#10
reignman ninjette.org member Name: Ray Location: Columbus, Oh Join Date: Mar 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Yamaha Fz1 Posts: 13	good idea maybe i should try putting the spark plugs back in and see how it "feels" compared to the left cylinder that i think is good

March 30th, 2013, 10:44 AM	#11
reignman ninjette.org member Name: Ray Location: Columbus, Oh Join Date: Mar 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Yamaha Fz1 Posts: 13	okay so yesterday I put the spark plugs in and turned it over manually. the left cylinder is still quite and smooth throughout the cycles but the right cylinder is a different story. i can hear air blowing out somewhere when on the compression stroke. i tried holding a hose through the air box, exhaust and oil filler but i cant tell where the compression is leaking from. should i pull the head off and inspect all the valves on that side?