Upshifting - clutch or clutchless?

[shaun2891]

normally for me road riding is always clutch. got some advice today at a track day to go clutchless upshifting and it worked great at the higher revs. worked very well and was very smooth. god i need a bigger track bike though haha :P

[JMcDonald]

Originally Posted by kenji_808

Basically that's the reason why there is no grinding of gears on a bike because there are no synchromesh gears to grind, the gears just go to the next gear.

You can definitely grind gears on a bike. They use the same engagement mechanism as cars (dogs), but without syncronizers.

I used to clutchless shift, up AND down, all the time. One time I did the entire commute to work with one hand, just to see if I could do it... stopsigns involved squeezing the brake until the engine was JUST about to die, then going again. But, one night when riding around with friends, I missed several gears on upshifts, so now I mostly use the clutch.

However, I still sometimes clutchless upshift when the engine is cold and I am keeping the RPMs low. The loads are small during calm, low-RPM acceleration, and because I have to shift 5 times by the time Im doing like 35mph, I would rather make it a little smoother.

I also clutchless downshift when I am making a turn without a turn lane, and want to use my left hand to signal to traffic behind me (in addition to my blinkers). Well, maybe I do it more than that; I sometimes forget which technique I use at any given time, heh. Downshifts are still very smooth and quite fun. Upshifts under high loads just make me a little nervous now, for my tranny's sake.

[Blackwidow]

one of the things my MSF instructure told us was that people tend to get into bad habits about motorcycle riding because they learn from people that posses those bad habits themselves. I would think using clutchless shifting would be a bad habit, if the clutch is there why not use it? It takes a second to pull in the clutch and up/down shift...I always use the clutch and will always continue to use it. but to each their own.

[Ytse Frobozz]

When I first got my bike I wouldn't have even entertained the thought of clutchless shifting, but after I read this thread a month or two ago, I decided to give it a shot on the way to work the next day, and I was shocked at how easy it is. I find that for me it's not very smooth going 1st-2nd and sometimes 2nd-3rd. It still seems to pop right in, but I think I need to work on the RPM/throttle position a little bit, as sometimes it's a bit herky-jerky. From 3rd gear on, it seems really easy and smooth, and so I tend to do it more while I'm in the upper gears.

I've downshifted to 3rd-ish with no clutch, and that seems to go pretty well, but that's still a work in progress for me.

I practice every now and then just because it could conceivably come in handy if I'm on a bike and something goes wrong with the clutch, and as sort of a game to see if I can make it shift really smooth that way. The thing it's impressed upon me the most is that when you do use the clutch, you certainly don't need to haul it all the way in every time.

Oh, I almost forgot. This comes in really handy when you need to shift and wave at the same time!

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Blackwidow

I would think using clutchless shifting would be a bad habit, if the clutch is there why not use it? It takes a second to pull in the clutch and up/down shift...I always use the clutch and will always continue to use it. but to each their own.

I prefer the clutch unless I'm really getting on it and passing someone or in the case I have a passenger on back. In both cases, clutchless is much smoother. Many of the pros (Lee Parks, for example) recommend clutchless saying it's smoother on the transmission (when done correctly), and less wear and tear on the clutch cable. It's a good skill to be comfortable with in case your clutch cable ever goes out on you mid-ride.

[rockNroll]

Shifting clutchless can be fun

[wtfh4xx]

Someone on the boards asked about it so I tried it when I was out today.
Seems to me that shifting into 3'rd and above without the clutch is very easy with no lurch when done right. Going into 2'nd from first lurches because of the gearing difference I believe.
For me When I hit 8.4Kish rpms I just pressured the shifter lightly then rolled off throttle and right back on.
Slips right into the next gear and keeps going.

[ducducgooseit]

Clutchless up is not that bad on the engine. Clutchless down is

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by ducducgooseit

Clutchless down is

why do you say that?

[ninja250]

Use a clutch, save a trany.
You can replace the clutch much easier/cheaper.

It's like people who downshift all the time and let the engine run rpm down.. (stoplights)
Save your engine/gas/trany, use your brake pads, when possible.

[jamesio]

Shifting/using the cultch is one of my favorite things about riding

[ninja250]

clutchless upshifting is for stunts.
Maybe even drag racing..

Cars can shift without the clutch too if you are careful and know how.

[alex.s]

i use clutchless ups and down on a regular basis for various uses. fyi one bike has almost 40k miles... the other getting close to 15k.

[Alex]

Search for "clutchless" on this site, and a bunch of threads come up on this same discussion.

Here's one of 'em.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by ninja250

clutchless upshifting is for stunts.
Maybe even drag racing..

LOL! Ok, guess it can be used for such. It can also be used correctly to save wear and tear on the tranny and can result in very smooth upshifts, particularly when really getting on the the throttle (ie: when passing someone). So there are practical uses for clutchless too.

[wtfh4xx]

I noticed its best when your really beating on it, for the smoothest shifts that is.
Anyways, yes its fun to shift. I was doing this because someone asked.
Not because I dont like clutching lol.

[ninja250]

Originally Posted by ally99

LOL! Ok, guess it can be used for such. It can also be used correctly to save wear and tear on the tranny and can result in very smooth upshifts, particularly when really getting on the the throttle (ie: when passing someone). So there are practical uses for clutchless too.

I'm sorry. Using your clutch is smoother in every way on the ninja250. It shifts much harder than a SS or 600 does. CLUNK! A lot of books tend to generalize things that can vary greatly from bike to bike.

It is nice for predictability when going from first to second in a wheelie though.
You know you'll make it into second if you hold up on that shifter until you jiggle the throttle.
There's no question on which part I'd rather place my load for normal every day use.
A commuter would benefit (IMO) from using their clutch more than their engine for braking and shifting.

I upshift without a clutch when I'm lazy, coming off a hill and can't feel my knees anymore from contorting them into awkward positions while playing with the devil.

"Generally", if there is any question weather or not something is gonna be good to a part not meant to be easily replaceable when it's worn, I'll go with the side of the part that will.

When I'm gonna pass, I also usually downshift to higher RPM and gun it. Upshifting comes after I've passed the mofo. The jetted/poded/piped ninjette will spank somebody in one gear rather quick. Usually the gear lower than I'm cruising in.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by ninja250

I'm sorry. Using your clutch is smoother in every way on the ninja250. It shifts much harder than a SS or 600 does. CLUNK! A lot of books tend to generalize things that can vary greatly from bike to bike.

i disagree... maybe urnotdoinitrite? i will say it is not as nice as a SS transmission but ... "clunk"? it sounds like something is wrong there.

Originally Posted by ninja250

It is nice for predictability when going from first to second...

i agree.

Originally Posted by ninja250

... in a wheelie though.

... i ... wait what?... you really like wheelies don't you? lol

Originally Posted by ninja250

You know you'll make it into second if you hold up on that shifter until you jiggle the throttle.

iif you do it right, yes. if you do it wrong, no.

Originally Posted by ninja250

There's no question on which part I'd rather place my load for normal every day use.
A commuter would benefit (IMO) from using their clutch more than their engine for braking and shifting.

umm... isn't the engine lubricated and designed to have these forces on it? doesn't the clutch use a friction mechanic that is designed to wear away over time? like brakes?

Originally Posted by ninja250

I upshift without a clutch when I'm lazy, coming off a hill and can't feel my knees anymore from contorting them into awkward positions while playing with the devil.

i clutchless upshift when i'm applying a lot of load. it is much smoother (no pogo) and works better and is quicker than the clutch. (maybe by only 1/16th or 1/32nd of a second) especially on my 600... if i'm WOT and use the clutch it will slip for a quarter second or so (needs replacing)... no clutch, no slip. but the same is true for the 250 just minus the slipping clutch... keep the load on, no pogo.

Originally Posted by ninja250

"Generally", if there is any question weather or not something is gonna be good to a part not meant to be easily replaceable when it's worn, I'll go with the side of the part that will.

i'm still not sure what exactly is damaged on a clutchless upshift when done correctly? can you please inform me? maybe can you provide photos of a part that has been damaged due to clutchless upshifts? i'm not talking about a shot tranny due to improper shifting, but rather for example, a transmission run its paces in a race bike operated by someone who knows what they're doing?

Originally Posted by ninja250

When I'm gonna pass, I also usually downshift to higher RPM and gun it. Upshifting comes after I've passed the mofo. The jetted/poded/piped ninjette will spank somebody in one gear rather quick. Usually the gear lower than I'm cruising in.

unless they're a dick riding a zr1 trying to screw with you...

[ninja250]

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

[ally99]

Originally Posted by ninja250

I'm sorry. Using your clutch is smoother in every way on the ninja250. It shifts much harder than a SS or 600 does. CLUNK! A lot of books tend to generalize things that can vary greatly from bike to bike.

Never apologize for your opinion. We all have our own. Something else to consider is maybe you are doing clutchless incorrectly. When done right, it's about as smooth of an upshift as you could imagine.

[Racer x]

I do it all the time once I am in the open .But not in traffic .It is fine IF done right.It is like magic. If done wrong is will cause problems. But mostly it just wont shift. The biggest problem is not the trans. If you are going hard and miss a shift with or with out a clutch,The engine could over rev and cause the valves to hit the pistons.

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by alex.s

urnotdoinitrite

I approve of this word



I shift w/o clutch often when I'm droning on the interstate, skooched to the right, with my left hand kinda on my hip, or when I'm tryin to give that Civic VTEC in the next lane a beat down

[Jerkson]

Originally Posted by rockNroll

I approve of this word



I shift w/o clutch often when I'm droning on the interstate, skooched to the right, with my left hand kinda on my hip, or when I'm tryin to give that Civic VTEC in the next lane a beat down

Careful.... hes got the VTEC yo!

[CynicalC]

Originally Posted by Jerkson

Careful.... hes got the VTEC yo!

Your image is broken.

Vtec is safe as long as you're not around to get sucked into tue vortex when he hits it.

[Jerkson]

Originally Posted by CynicalC

Your image is broken.

Vtec is safe as long as you're not around to get sucked into tue vortex when he hits it.

Image shows on 2 pc's here oh well.

[alex.s]

i see the image as well

[kkim]

no image here. you guys must be members of that forum that the pics are from?

[ninja250]

LOL
How the hell could you not do it right if your not using the clutch.
C'mon guys..
Let off the gas and up the gear goes if you're holding the shifter up. Slips right in.
Still twice as loud and violent as my GSXR which doesn't even stutter when you do it.

My GSXR is at least twice as smooth on a clutchless upshift.
Ninja is not a super tuned sport bike made for clutchless upshifting.

[ninja250]

kkim copy paste image link into addy bar
It didn't work here at first.

[ninja250]

Originally Posted by Racer x

I do it all the time once I am in the open .But not in traffic .It is fine IF done right.It is like magic. If done wrong is will cause problems. But mostly it just wont shift. The biggest problem is not the trans. If you are going hard and miss a shift with or with out a clutch,The engine could over rev and cause the valves to hit the pistons.

Oh, dang, man!
That just might sound catastrophic to the engine completely, ey?
To prevent the even slightest possibility this could happen, it's a good idea to use a clutch.
All I'm saying.. (to the rest of the crowd. You have supported my theory in a way.)
I won't get anywhere with this conversation because neither side can or can't prove it.

Like I said earlier, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Put the load on the parts that are made to wear. As a self proclaimed mechanic, that is the advice I would give. That way I can fix it if it breaks. The two things I can't do are engine heads and trany's (yet). Fairly sure I can tackle a clutch tho.

..and V-tech is no match for a GSXR.
I don't race cars anymore. lol.
They were fun while they lasted.
Now all the cars I could actually afford are TOO SLOW. The 250R is faster.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by ninja250

Oh, dang, man!
I won't get anywhere with this conversation because neither side can or can't prove it.

bring your bike over and i'll prove it

[Boom King]

I tried this a few times; didn't seem that difficult although I have no idea if my technique was right. Basically applied some light pressure underneath the shifter, rolled off the throttle and the shifter clicked up and then gradually reapplied throttle again. It was cool for about 5 seconds just to try it out . I just don't have any real reason to not use the clutch.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Boom King

I tried this a few times; didn't seem that difficult although I have no idea if my technique was right. Basically applied some light pressure underneath the shifter, rolled off the throttle and the shifter clicked up and then gradually reapplied throttle again. It was cool for about 5 seconds just to try it out . I just don't have any real reason to not use the clutch.

You would know if it wasn't right, so if it felt smooth, it was probably ok.
My bike must be pretty darn "tuned" because its clutchless upshift is very smooth, easy, and quite fun!
I won't add to the argument because there is no "right" way. I will say this, however, it's really good to know and be comfortable with clutchless shifting in case your clutch cable ever breaks while you're riding. Otherwise, there is no right or wrong way to shift, clutch or not, but there is a faster, more fun way!

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by ally99

You would know if it wasn't right, so if it felt smooth, it was probably ok.
My bike must be pretty darn "tuned" because its clutchless upshift is very smooth, easy, and quite fun!
I won't add to the argument because there is no "right" way. I will say this, however, it's really good to know and be comfortable with clutchless shifting in case your clutch cable ever breaks while you're riding. Otherwise, there is no right or wrong way to shift, clutch or not, but there is a faster, more fun way!

there may not specifically be a "right way" but there is definitely a "wrong way"
as to your bike being tuned... i'd say it's more likely your right wrist being tuned.

[Kevin2109]

So.... What about clutchless down shifting? I've gotten pretty darn good at it and honestly it makes riding easier if I need to drop a gear really fast for something

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Kevin2109

So.... What about clutchless down shifting? I've gotten pretty darn good at it and honestly it makes riding easier if I need to drop a gear really fast for something

its a very handy tool in my opinion... i'm a firm believer that when done right can be very smooth as well. i know a lot of people think its bad... i don't know. if it's that smooth i can't see how it could be bad... maybe they suffer from Urnodoinitriteitus?

[Alex]

Put the wear/damage issue of to the side for the moment. The reason that people don't recommend clutchless downshifting it that it's somewhat pointless. When you're downshifting, you are making the engine go faster for a given road speed. If you do it instantaneously without clutching in and out, the moments it takes to get the engine up to speed cause the rear wheel to lose traction, even if for a moment.

So if you're planning to downshift without the clutch because of braking hard and want it to happen quickly, that's a terrible time to intentionally cause the rear to break traction. Watch how smooth people are when coming into corners on track with the clutch hand, very slowly letting it out to allow the rear wheel to exactly match the engine speed without ever breaking traction.

But if you're going slowly enough and just experimenting in a straight line while not at the traction limits, sure, it can be done, but with zero performance benefit, and a greater risk of futzing up your shift forks as it's harder on the drivetrain to have the engine accelerated by the rear wheel than it is for it to decelerate naturally on upshifts.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Alex

Put the wear/damage issue of to the side for the moment. The reason that people don't recommend clutchless downshifting it that it's somewhat pointless. When you're downshifting, you are making the engine go faster for a given road speed. If you do it instantaneously without clutching in and out, the moments it takes to get the engine up to speed cause the rear wheel to lose traction, even if for a moment.

So if you're planning to downshift without the clutch because of braking hard and want it to happen quickly, that's a terrible time to intentionally cause the rear to break traction. Watch how smooth people are when coming into corners on track with the clutch hand, very slowly letting it out to allow the rear wheel to exactly match the engine speed without ever breaking traction.

But if you're going slowly enough and just experimenting in a straight line while not at the traction limits, sure, it can be done, but with zero performance benefit, and a greater risk of futzing up your shift forks as it's harder on the drivetrain to have the engine accelerated by the rear wheel than it is for it to decelerate naturally on upshifts.

i absolutely agree when trying to go fast... or rather slow down fast. but when i'm just putting around on the street and casually slowing down for a turn or whatever where someone else has to yield to me, on my fzr the revs are usually around 3kish... it doesn't seem like its nearly enough to lose the rear... if i do it right it feels very smooth... do you think its still doing damage? it definitely doesn't give any performance benefit but i personally found that noone seems to ever see my signals when i use them... i have to go through a few intersections frequently where cars going 'straight' for them have to yield to the other flow of traffic and when i used signals i would get cut-off fairly frequently... it seems to me like i noticed (although it may just be me overthinking it and nothing is actually changed) people respond much more accordingly to my hand signals... so if i'm using hand signals and need to get another down shift in, clutchless is very handy to me. what do you think? i'm probably overthinking it... maybe?

[Alex]

Clutchless downshifting isn't recommended. I wouldn't make it a habit.

[Xoulrath]

I haven't bothered to cluchless upshift the ZX yet. It's fast enough that I don't need to worry about losing a 1/4 of a second when shifting. The 250, on the other hand, I made it a habit to clutchless upshift. It was noticeably quicker, since it was putting down the power faster, and it was smoother than using the clutch.