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Old February 1st, 2013, 04:18 PM   #1
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Captive rear brake hanger

So I got sick of the reaR brake always falling down and being a general pain in the ass when the wheel was off. So I sloted the hanger and stuck a bolt and collar in the swingarm to hold it in place!
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Old February 1st, 2013, 04:21 PM   #2
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cool, this is a lot better than me zip tying it to the swingarm.
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Old February 1st, 2013, 04:21 PM   #3
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But there's an easier way without doing any of those mods...Richard (RaceBikeRentals) showed me how but I forget cuz I'm old.

Hopefully he'll see this and chime in.
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Old February 1st, 2013, 05:12 PM   #4
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Not so sure I'd want to put braking forces into a structurally compromised part. Think about how the pregen needed an extra bracing arm between it and the swingarm for that caliper!

I just put the axle in backwards. It makes things a whole lot easier. It may come from the factory inserted through the left but even the service manual says to insert from the right.
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Old February 1st, 2013, 05:41 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CZroe View Post
Not so sure I'd want to put braking forces into a structurally compromised part. Think about how the pregen needed an extra bracing arm between it and the swingarm for that caliper!

I just put the axle in backwards. It makes things a whole lot easier. It may come from the factory inserted through the left but even the service manual says to insert from the right.
he is a racer. racers do not use rear brake.


i like the idea. i think what jon is talking about is if you flip it over and turn it like 20 minutes, it sets on top of the swing arm perfectly without hanging and putting stress on the line.

but i kinda like this idea since it should making putting the rear wheel on and off a hell of a lot easier since you dont have to constantly line up that stupid brake mount... it is easier, right?
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Old February 1st, 2013, 05:45 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by alex.s View Post
he is a racer. racers do not use rear brake.


i like the idea. i think what jon is talking about is if you flip it over and turn it like 20 minutes, it sets on top of the swing arm perfectly without hanging and putting stress on the line.

but i kinda like this idea since it should making putting the rear wheel on and off a hell of a lot easier since you dont have to constantly line up that stupid brake mount... it is easier, right?
So I guess it's just a space to him then? No need for the rear brake caliper at all!

With the Sportisi swingarm cover, my brake like goes over-under instead of under-over with a holder on the swingarm.
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Old February 1st, 2013, 05:50 PM   #7
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Quote:
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Not so sure I'd want to put braking forces into a structurally compromised part. Think about how the pregen needed an extra bracing arm between it and the swingarm for that caliper!

Brake forces are applied to the top side of the bracket so it won't matter, think about the direction of the torque applied. The pre-gen bracket doesn't brace on the swingarm the same way, there is no channel built in to it so they have to use an old school torque arm set-up....Go look at some diagrams.
Also every race bike I've been around is set up to always use your dominant hand to hold and locate the wheel while using the other hand to push in the axle...Have you changed many tires?
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Old February 2nd, 2013, 12:23 AM   #8
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Brake forces are applied to the top side of the bracket so it won't matter, think about the direction of the torque applied.
I know. I'm thinking about the tab you threaded the bolt into. It could now split or fold. All of the force in the current setup goes into that one welded-on bent piece that's now punctured with the collared bolt. But all is not lost: It could potentially be made stronger than the original setup if the bolt is welded to the tab and the swingarm.

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Originally Posted by smokinsingle View Post
The pre-gen bracket doesn't brace on the swingarm the same way, there is no channel built in to it so they have to use an old school torque arm set-up....Go look at some diagrams.
I imagine that the old setup was determined to be overkill if the welded bent tab with slotted holder is enough. Besides, I have three EX250F swingarms and two EX250J arms to look at.

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Also every race bike I've been around is set up to always use your dominant hand to hold and locate the wheel while using the other hand to push in the axle...Have you changed many tires?
Yes, actually, and almost always by myself. I find it far easier to align all the spacers with the caliper holder without dropping anything if I partially insert the axle such that it holds the caliper holder while I position everything else. Once in position with all the spacers, I just push it through.
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Old February 2nd, 2013, 09:13 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CZroe View Post
I know. I'm thinking about the tab you threaded the bolt into. It could now split or fold. All of the force in the current setup goes into that one welded-on bent piece that's now punctured with the collared bolt. But all is not lost: It could potentially be made stronger than the original setup if the bolt is welded to the tab and the swingarm.
That "little" tab is going nowhere, That thing is hard! I Had to sharpen the drill bit twice while drilling it, and the matierial is so much thicker than the swingarm material guage I'm postive the welds would tear off long before the tab would "split or fold".
Also whats hidden inside the tab is a battery terminal nut from a big YTX20, a big blocky thing, thats what the bolt is threaded into. It takes up a lot of space inside the tab area to act as a brace and tie it all together. I'll get a pic up if I can.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 10:17 AM   #10
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there is no room, for it to turn it would have to tear the tab completely off of the swingarm. a hole through the tab wouldn't change that. you are talking about complete structural failure before that thing would tear off.

i donno about you, but i don't use my rear brake hard enough to bend the swing arm
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Old February 4th, 2013, 11:06 AM   #11
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Quote:
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there is no room, for it to turn it would have to tear the tab completely off of the swingarm. a hole through the tab wouldn't change that. you are talking about complete structural failure before that thing would tear off.

i donno about you, but i don't use my rear brake hard enough to bend the swing arm
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Old February 4th, 2013, 01:41 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by alex.s View Post
there is no room, for it to turn it would have to tear the tab completely off of the swingarm. a hole through the tab wouldn't change that. you are talking about complete structural failure before that thing would tear off.

i donno about you, but i don't use my rear brake hard enough to bend the swing arm
The tab could deform and flatten a lot more easily with a hole in it. I'm not saying it would, but it's still easy to see how it could be structurally compromised. If I levered the bolt down it wouldn't need to warp much to come out of the threading unless it is also threaded into the swingarm, which I already said would likely make it stronger than stock.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 03:11 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by CZroe View Post
The tab could deform and flatten a lot more easily with a hole in it. I'm not saying it would, but it's still easy to see how it could be structurally compromised. If I levered the bolt down it wouldn't need to warp much to come out of the threading unless it is also threaded into the swingarm, which I already said would likely make it stronger than stock.
you are missing the point. the bolt is not doing anything structurally. the metal that was previously where the bolt now is was not doing anything structurally. with the rear end bolted together and the axle tight, the brake mount is flush against the swing arm and evenly supported. if you cut the top face of the brake alignment mount off, and bent the walls flat against the swing arm, you would still not be able to rotate the brake mount. the swing arm would literally have to collapse in on itself in order for the mount to rotate. the kind of force required to do that can't be applied by rotating the brake mount around the axle.


think about the amount of force the rear brake can apply.... its not very much when you think about the amount of force it takes to lock up the rear tire.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 04:59 PM   #14
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you are missing the point. the bolt is not doing anything structurally. the metal that was previously where the bolt now is was not doing anything structurally. with the rear end bolted together and the axle tight, the brake mount is flush against the swing arm and evenly supported. if you cut the top face of the brake alignment mount off, and bent the walls flat against the swing arm, you would still not be able to rotate the brake mount. the swing arm would literally have to collapse in on itself in order for the mount to rotate. the kind of force required to do that can't be applied by rotating the brake mount around the axle.


think about the amount of force the rear brake can apply.... its not very much when you think about the amount of force it takes to lock up the rear tire.
Not really sure what you mean. Without the tab there, what is there other than surface tension to keep the mount in place against the swingarm? From what I can tell, it could spin round 'n' round if it weren't for the caliper hitting the swingarm (already failed if that happened). The wheel spacer and wheel bearing isolate it from the rotation of the wheel until you use the brake but they do nothing to anchor it from turning around the axle without the tab welded on that the mount is also anchored to. Yes, I know the forces aren't extreme, but that's why I figure it no longer has the elaborate arm bracing it like the F-bike has. I'd have to be an engineer to be comfortable taking it any farther.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 05:07 PM   #15
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i'm going to try this one more time...

where does the tab go when it "fails" and starts to bend in your hypothetical failure?

from your description, it magically disappears. allowing the brace to rotate. this doesn't happen in real life.

the pressure is put on the alignment tab vertically. in order to bend the alignment tab down like the brake mount would have to do in order to rotate, you would need to bend the corner of that tab as well (or bust it off completely but thats even more work) that's like 8th inch steel by the way. the vertical support between the two horizontal sides of the alignment tab (the part that has the hole in it now) does very little to support the inside edge of the horizontal side of the alignment tab.


the forces you are talking about to break that tab... you would rip the swing arm apart before you could apply that much force using the brakes.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 05:43 PM   #16
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Thats a sweet idea. Can you give a better description (or mcmaster link) to that collar?

That hole does not significantly effect the strength of the tab.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 05:49 PM   #17
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i'm going to try this one more time...

where does the tab go when it "fails" and starts to bend in your hypothetical failure?

from your description, it magically disappears. allowing the brace to rotate. this doesn't happen in real life.
Buckles in the face with the hole allowing the top to unfold flat against the swingarm and the bottom/inside to fold flat aganst it swingarm.

Fold up flat against the swingarm.

Chopping off the top and inner faces like you describe would create an L-shaped piece supporting all the weight on one suspended platform. If overloaded, a shape like that will usually bend into a V and then flatten against the surface it is attached to unless it is stronger than the structure it is attached to. That's not likely the case (both appear to be steel).

With the inner face structurally compromised, the top face can no longer share as much load with the bottom face without the inner face buckling. If this happens, both upper and lower faces can bend in a cascade if there is enough force to bend even one side. First, the top part bearing load gives as the structurally compromised connecting piece (inner face) twists. Once flattened, the full forces are now applied to the bottom face until it folds as well.

To imagine that the inner face does not transfer force to the bottom face to increase the amount of load it can take is to ignore why it isn't a simple L-shape in the first place.

I doubt this will help visualize it, but here:
Code:
	  _
	_| |_
	  _
	_| \_

	_|\__

	_\\__

	==--_
Once again: I'm not saying that it isn't perfectly fine. I'm simply saying that I'm not an engineer and would not assume that it is perfectly fine. It's obvious to me that they scaled things back from the F-bike's rear braking setup and I trust that their engineers were comfortable going as far as they did. Perhaps they were only comfortable going that far?
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Old February 5th, 2013, 08:08 AM   #18
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Thats a sweet idea. Can you give a better description (or mcmaster link) to that collar?

That hole does not significantly effect the strength of the tab.
I have no links to the collar, it was a random one I found at the shop digging around through bolt bins. I found the collar first, then made the slot fit the collar.
This is a basic picture of a collared washer, obviously the one I used had slightly different dimensions...but you get the point.
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Old February 5th, 2013, 08:13 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CZroe View Post
Buckles in the face with the hole allowing the top to unfold flat against the swingarm and the bottom/inside to fold flat aganst it swingarm.

Fold up flat against the swingarm.

Chopping off the top and inner faces like you describe would create an L-shaped piece supporting all the weight on one suspended platform. If overloaded, a shape like that will usually bend into a V and then flatten against the surface it is attached to unless it is stronger than the structure it is attached to. That's not likely the case (both appear to be steel).

With the inner face structurally compromised, the top face can no longer share as much load with the bottom face without the inner face buckling. If this happens, both upper and lower faces can bend in a cascade if there is enough force to bend even one side. First, the top part bearing load gives as the structurally compromised connecting piece (inner face) twists. Once flattened, the full forces are now applied to the bottom face until it folds as well.

To imagine that the inner face does not transfer force to the bottom face to increase the amount of load it can take is to ignore why it isn't a simple L-shape in the first place.

I doubt this will help visualize it, but here:
Code:
	  _
	_| |_
	  _
	_| \_

	_|\__

	_\\__

	==--_
Once again: I'm not saying that it isn't perfectly fine. I'm simply saying that I'm not an engineer and would not assume that it is perfectly fine. It's obvious to me that they scaled things back from the F-bike's rear braking setup and I trust that their engineers were comfortable going as far as they did. Perhaps they were only comfortable going that far?
Tell you what I'll do just for you, I'll go run the bike on the rearstand at lets say 80ish? Then I'll SLAM on the rear brake locking the wheel and stopping the motor there by inducing all kinds of crazy force on the rear brake mount. All while video taping it for your pleasure. How many times do you want me to do this before you'll say, ok nothings gonna happen...?
--Edit...We'll have to wait for my rear rotor to get back from the machinist, I'm having him do a little "structure compromising" if you know what I mean.
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Old February 5th, 2013, 08:23 AM   #20
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I drilled and tapped the steer stops in the bottom triple for adjust-ability and less distance from lock to lock last night. I wonder how much I compromised the structural integrity... They're M5x0.8 in case anybody is wondering..
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Old February 5th, 2013, 08:28 AM   #21
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Looking to put on more aggressive clip-ons without bonking the starter button in the pits?
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Old February 5th, 2013, 08:30 AM   #22
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I drilled and tapped the steer stops in the bottom triple for adjust-ability and less distance from lock to lock last night......
Reason?

The bracket is not weaker for forward braking, but it is for backward braking.

No, the welded part is not weaker because the hole; it acts like a column between the two sides in contact with the bracket.

Columns fail by buckling first.
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Old February 5th, 2013, 08:33 AM   #23
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The bracket is not weaker for forward braking, but it is for backward braking.
--True. I gotta make sure I stay away from going backwards on the track!
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Old February 5th, 2013, 08:42 AM   #24
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You can go backwards, just don't brake too hard.

Why the mod to the tops?
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Old February 5th, 2013, 08:43 AM   #25
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I drilled and tapped the steer stops in the bottom triple for adjust-ability and less distance from lock to lock last night.
Interesting. Is that adjustability to keep clip-ons from hitting? Any other reason to limit the steering range?

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I wonder how much I compromised the structural integrity... They're M5x0.8 in case anybody is wondering..
Ugh. As I said: I do not doubt that may be more more than enough. My continued posts weren't to continue disagreeing, but to explain how the structure was compromised to those who asked. I totally support what you did even if I would rather just put the axle in backwards myself.

I'm simply responding to specific things like "a hole through the tab wouldn't change that" or "where does the tab go when it 'fails' ... in your hypothetical failure?".
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Old February 5th, 2013, 11:23 AM   #26
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Yes, the steering stops are for keeping the clipons from hitting the race bodywork. I've already trimmed a bunch of the fiberglass but have wanted to do this for a while.
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Old February 5th, 2013, 01:02 PM   #27
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Yes, the steering stops are for keeping the clipons from hitting the race bodywork. I've already trimmed a bunch of the fiberglass but have wanted to do this for a while.
I had to do this as well... but did it way more ghetto. Just stuck some wheel weights onto the steering stops. Saved my thumb from getting mashed between the tank and the clipons in a tankslapper!
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Old February 5th, 2013, 01:34 PM   #28
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I had to do this as well... but did it way more ghetto. Just stuck some wheel weights onto the steering stops. Saved my thumb from getting mashed between the tank and the clipons in a tankslapper!
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Old February 5th, 2013, 05:15 PM   #29
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So I got sick of the reaR brake always falling down and being a general pain in the ass when the wheel was off. So I sloted the hanger and stuck a bolt and collar in the swingarm to hold it in place!
how did you slot the hanger?
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Old February 5th, 2013, 08:58 PM   #30
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Vertical mill. You could use a drill press in a pinch with the right tooling and a little screw vice attachment.
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