Linked Brakes

[akima]

I'm curious about this linked brakes thing that I've heard some bikes have. I think our benevolent overlord mentioned his new bike has linked brakes.

It sounds kinda sketchy to me. I like to have full control over my brakes so that I can intelligently pick the right ratio of front and rear braking for each specific scenario I encounter. Linked brakes would take away some of that control.

Any of you have good or bad experience with bikes with linked brakes?

I'm not planning on getting a linked brake bike, I'd just like to hear people's thoughts on them.

@Alex: is it possible to disable the linked brakes on your bike using that mini, nasa, control-center built into your dash?

[Jay72]

Hopefully someone with a CBR 250 with the ABS will help you out Akima, they have the brakes like that. When I was looking for my bike and went to the stealership to check out the CBR the sales guy was really trying to push me to go with the ABS version because it had the brakes that did that. Not sure much about it though.

[alex.s]

a lot of scooters are linked. ive driven some older small bikes with linked brakes. if you are just cruising theres nothing wrong with them, and they help with brake life. but if you are doing anything remotely aggressive, they are kinda counter-productive IMO

[akima]

Originally Posted by alex.s

a lot of scooters are linked. ive driven some older small bikes with linked brakes. if you are just cruising theres nothing wrong with them, and they help with brake life. but if you are doing anything remotely aggressive, they are kinda counter-productive IMO

I guess if I rode really gently everywhere then it could be ok, but sometimes I like to... ride with intensity

There's no real need for me to lane split over an area of ground where the surface is clearly dirty and covered in small stones, but sometimes I like too... and when I do, I want complete control over my brakes so that i can slow down using just the rear brake and still get a small amount of turning in. If the front brake was also applied when I pressed in the rear brake lever, that could easily cause the front wheel to loose traction and for me and my bike to land splat on the ground.

[Racer x]

I had a 2006 Honda VFR with link ABS brakes. I loved them on that bike. Bit on a race bike or even a street 250 I can live without them. When I tested my brakes on mud covered painted cement. I was shocked how quick the bike just stopped moving . That was from just snatching the front to feel the ABS kick in.

As for the linked part. It was nice to go into a turn and just push lightly on the rear brake and feel the whole (big fat pig of a bike ) slow down. I also rode an old BMW. Those felt clunky and I did not like them . The new Honda was seem less .

On the Honda the rear and just part of the front brakes work from the rear pedal and the front is separate. Six front break pistons four outer work with the hand lever and the two center ones work off the rear.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by akima

@Alex: is it possible to disable the linked brakes on your bike using that mini, nasa, control-center built into your dash?

Not able to disable it completely, but when you choose different riding modes, it affects just about all of the electronic nannies, from traction control to ABS to engine mapping.

BMW has the linked system down pretty well at this point, and I'm a fan. I use the front lever exclusively, and it adds a smidge of rear without me worrying about it. The front is linked to the rear. But the rear is not linked to the front. In other words, if you use the brake pedal, that controls only the rear caliper, and has nothing to do with the front.

In the early 2000's, there were a number of BMW models that were linked in both directions. There were a large number of zero-mph drops when someone drags the rear brake pedal for sharp slow turns, which then activated the front brake while the bars were turned, and thump, there it was. Once the 1200 series was released ('04 for GS, '05 for RT), the linking morphed into today's strategy.

[alex.s]

that sounds pretty nice. if you slam on the lever are you able to lock the rear at all?

[Alex]

Originally Posted by alex.s

that sounds pretty nice. if you slam on the lever are you able to lock the rear at all?

Nothing locks ever. It does its level best to keep the front and rear right up at the edge of lockup. It does take some getting used to in extreme situations. If you are braking so hard that it starts to lift the rear off the ground, it lessens brake pressure in the front to put the rear back on the ground before adding some pressure back again. So in a sense it feels (for a microsecond), like the brakes just failed, but in fact they are doing what they should be to keep you with steering control.

If the same thing happens on a non-abs or simpler abs bike, with the rear in the air you can't turn into the corner anyway, and you'll likely let off the front brake completely once you realize what's happening, and re-enable the front brake quite a bit later than the computer is able to do automatically.

But it's also smart enough to realize when the rear is bouncing off the ground for a sharp bump, and in that case it doesn't cut the front brake pressure for that microsecond. The first ABS systems on the F800 series had that behavior, so if you were coming to a quick stop on a bumpy road, it seemed to take longer than it should as it couldn't differentiate between those bumps and the rear lifting due to strong deceleration forces.

The top end systems are very confidence inspiring. What it means is that no matter how slippery the road, no matter what the surface, I should never refrain from using as much brake as I feel I need to slow the bike down, knowing that I will not lose stability as long as I'm somewhere close to straight up and down. It's not magic, and if leaned over fully and you nail the brakes, bad things are going to happen at some point, it can't conjure up unlimited traction.

[alex.s]

/drool.

that sounds amazing

[choneofakind]

time for a BMW S1000RR (assuming the same system is in place there?)

[Alex]

The S1000RR has a great system, but it's a little different. That bike's different riding modes have some neat features when it comes to the ABS, with Race mode allowing ABS on the front wheel, while letting the back lock and slide at will if needed for adjusting cornering lines. I'd bet that it doesn't drop the front brake pressure when lifting the rear in that mode either, but you'd have to check a S1000RR board for the details.

[akima]

Thanks for your input @Alex. The linked brakes on your ABS bike sound quite good on account of all the extra intelligence that goes into how much the other brake should be applied.

[Jiggles]

I'm trying to find an article or review on the Ninja 1000's ABS system but I can't seem to find anything. I'm sure it's not as advanced as the BMW systems but I'd like to know if it is linked and the other features it offers. Maybe I'll drive down to the dealer in 3 months and see what they know. DEPRESSING

[Alex]

I don't believe they are linked.

[akima]

lol @Jiggles and @TylersEM2

I was hoping there would be some linked-brake bikes responding to the poll

[Jiggles]

Well there was no real answer for me, like uh, I have no fackin clue would have been a good option

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by Alex

I don't believe they are linked.

But does it have some of those other cool ABS features? Every article I find on it says "Oh and the ninja 1000 has ABS which is a cool feature"

Wow, thanks article, really helps me out here

[akima]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Well there was no real answer for me, like uh, I have no fackin clue would have been a good option

I figured when I wrote the poll that the answers provided don't cover all potential feelings. That last option was thrown in for the lunatics.

[akima]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

But does it have some of those other cool ABS features? Every article I find on it says "Oh and the ninja 1000 has ABS which is a cool feature"

Wow, thanks article, really helps me out here

Having ABS on your bike doesn't require that the bike has linked brakes. They are two separate technologies that sometimes interact (like on Alex's bike).

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by akima

I figured when I wrote the poll that the answers provided don't cover all potential feelings. That last option was thrown in for the lunatics.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by akima

Having ABS on your bike doesn't require that the bike has linked brakes. They are two separate technologies that sometimes interact (like on Alex's bike).

I know, but I can't find any information on the Ninja 1000s ABS so I wonder what kind of features it actually has

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Alex

The S1000RR has a great system, but it's a little different. That bike's different riding modes have some neat features when it comes to the ABS, with Race mode allowing ABS on the front wheel, while letting the back lock and slide at will if needed for adjusting cornering lines. I'd bet that it doesn't drop the front brake pressure when lifting the rear in that mode either, but you'd have to check a S1000RR board for the details.

Interesting. I never realized just how much intensive thought the Germans put into the electronics on that bike. They took everything into account.

I guess it really shouldn't surprise me considering cars like the M3, the R8, and the 911 Turbo

[TylersEM2]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

I second that notion.

[backinthesaddleagain]

I have them on the CBR600. Don't really even notice them. Though sometimes if i am slowing to a stop I might fiddle with the zipper on my jacket or some other distraction and just use the pedal to slow the bike.

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

time for a BMW S1000RR (assuming the same system is in place there?)

Just can't buy one until they take them off sales hold. Supposedly connecting rods are coming apart due to a lose bolt (so far just the majority of opinions, even my tech friends hadn't heard as of saturday).

[backinthesaddleagain]

Not sure if this applies to the CBR250 but from Motorcycle.com re the 600 and 1000:

When the system sees that you’re really crushing the brake lever in a feverish attempt to stop, it will then apply a degree of rear brake based on a predetermined pressure value from the front, regardless of ABS activation. You could do this on a conventional system, but most riders don’t have the skill necessary to match the speed and precision of the electronic system. Applying some level of rear brake will cause the rear suspension to compress, thereby helping stabilize the chassis, achieving one of the primary goals of employing C-ABS on a supersport.
When using the rear brake only, the ECM doesn’t bring the front brake into action until the rear brake is near the point of lock-up. This, says Farewell, is different than current linked systems that include the front brake much sooner. This allows a rider to use the rear brake much like a non-combined system. This could come in handy, for example, during sporty stints when the rider might use the rear for trail-braking.

[choneofakind]

That sounds awesome. I wish my bike had that.

[akima]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

That sounds awesome. I wish my bike had that.

I read Greg's last post and thought: that sounds scary! I don't think I could ride fast at all if I didn't feel like I was in complete control of my brakes. I was imagining all these scenarios where the brake system Greg described could cause me to crash or cause me to worry about using my brakes as much as I want to incase of invoking a linked brake and then crashing.

ABS sounds great to me. The idea of a computer automagically reducing my braking force if traction-loss is detected sounds purely positive to me. I can't imagine a scenario on the road where ABS would be undesirable (so long as it's a good ABS system). I'd love to have that on my bike. It's just the linked brake thing that seems sketchy to me. My government has attempted to impose throttle control systems on motorcyclists that would limit their acceleration and top speed. On a practical level: that concerns me for the same reasons the linked brakes concern me: there might be times when I expect my bike to perform one way, but the AI interferes and results in me crashing. Imagine suddenly realizing someone is about to pull out in front of you because they haven't seen you. They are very close to you before pulling out, so you don't feel like there is enough time to brake. You decide to accelerate as hard as possible to get in front of them. Imagine suddenly having a throttle-control system say: "I'm sorry Dave Akima. I'm afraid I can't do that." It limits your acceleration and you plow into the side of the car. You might not even get as far as hard acceleration. In the moment you might find yourself concerned about what action you should take for fear of the bike-ai adversely interfering with your braking/acceleration inputs. You might then make no action at all. The result: you plow into the side of the car.


THE PUTERS ARE TRYIN' TO KILL US!!!!


I can imagine lots of scenarios where the linked brakes could cause similar types of accident.

[Whiskey]

I thought the EU was trying to bring in the "safety features" that take control away from the rider, they're trying to get bikes off the roads at all costs, but know that if they ban them outright that brussels would be burnt to the ground in protest.

Between the age increases in their most recent driving licence directive, their attempts to push mandatory power limits, mandatory abs,electronic throttle override, diagnostics to see if non standard parts are in use, tried to ban any "racing parts" from road bikes, ever stricter emissions laws (commute in a car at rush hour takes an hour, on the bike it's 20 mins, to do the distance, but the bike has slightly higher emissions on a closed track with no traffic so a suit in brussels wants it banned)

Continent was ripped apart by dictators, and now it sets up an unelected government that decides to do as it likes and force all countries to do as it says, it's just short of calling the boss furher
Posted via Mobile Device

[akima]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

I thought the EU was trying to bring in the "safety features" that take control away from the rider,

The EU has definitely being pushing these "safety features". I think the UK gov has also been trying things like that for a long time though. I came to that conclusion from reading a bit about MAG.

They claim they've been around for 40 years fighting government attempts to take away biker freedom. That pre-dates the EU's consolidation of power lisbon treaty.

Originally Posted by Whiskey

Continent was ripped apart by dictators, and now it sets up an unelected government that decides to do as it likes and force all countries to do as it says, it's just short of calling the boss furher
Posted via Mobile Device

Nice to know there are other people out there who aren't sleep walking.

[Tony B]

I owned a Guzzi with linked brakes, no ABS, no computer, just one front disc and the rear disc on the same (foot) brake circuit. A lot of the old Guzzi's had that. It was fine,no problem.
I wouldn't like to ride any bike that has computers or fancy electronic systems on the brakes. My mate Dave bought a brand new BMW four cylinder sportsbike last summer, (can't remember what model), on the way to work one morning, doing 90 in the outside lane of the motorway, the computer had a 'problem', and switched off the braking system. He managed to pull off safely and got the bike recovered back to the dealers who fixed it.
I would have told them to shove it !
Perhaps next time I have a few minutes to spare at Brooklands, I'll take some pictures of the braking systems on the older bikes there. Many consist of bicycle type stirrup brakes - but are less effective

[Tony B]

Oh, and Akima, yes, MAG have been around for a long time, back in the days when pensioner Fred Hill used to regularly get sent to prison for not wearing a helmet, or paying the fines ! (Helmet law was '73 I think).