Measuring valves

[randomwalk101]

Bummer..sorry to hear that man.

If you do it again, may be you can do a video of the whole process so other members won't have to make the same mistake.

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

Bummer..sorry to hear that man.

If you do it again, may be you can do a video of the whole process so other members won't have to make the same mistake.

You and your videos.

But I know what you mean. Videos explains/shows you so much more than mere words.

I'll try. Heck, I'll even try to get some shots of my sexy hairy legs in there for ya.

[randomwalk101]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

You and your videos.

But I know what you mean. Videos explains/shows you so much more than mere words.

I'll try. Heck, I'll even try to get some shots of my sexy hairy legs in there for ya.

Yes Video

...cuz frankly, after reading a few threads like this and two full blown DIY, I am still confused...and valve adjustment is something we should not be guessing.

[headshrink]

I saw an intake cam on ebay for pretty cheap.... you might want to look there, if you haven't already.

[headshrink]

Not to belabor things, but I'm putting the cams back on/timing right now.

I have it at 2|T. I had the white marks on the cams facing each other when I took the cams off (also at 2|T), but the SM says on reassembly to have the white marks facing away..... which is it?

[spicy mayo]

If you need any pieces for the cylinder head I am expecting an extra in a few days. I made the mistake of letting a screw make its way into one of the cylinders and I am replacing the head this weekend. The other pieces (cams, buckets, shims) I wont be needing.

[spooph]

Headshrink, 2 things I can think of here... Either the engine wasn't at 2T when you removed the cams, or you've mistakenly swapped the cams exhaust for intake.... I know these aren't nice things to hear, and I don't mean to say you don't know what you're doing, but when cylinder 2 is at TDC, the white marks do need to be facing away from one another, and even with the top of the head.... Make sure to check the "EX" and "IN" stamps on the cam gears? Best of luck!

ON a different note, I just adjusted my shims Racer X's way (with the cams floating freely, no caps), and it was stupid easy and accurate. Hooray for X!

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by spooph

Headshrink, 2 things I can think of here... Either the engine wasn't at 2T when you removed the cams, or you've mistakenly swapped the cams exhaust for intake.... I know these aren't nice things to hear, and I don't mean to say you don't know what you're doing, but when cylinder 2 is at TDC, the white marks do need to be facing away from one another, and even with the top of the head.... Make sure to check the "EX" and "IN" stamps on the cam gears? Best of luck!

ON a different note, I just adjusted my shims Racer X's way (with the cams floating freely, no caps), and it was stupid easy and accurate. Hooray for X!

All the pics I find on the forums are the marks facing e/o... this is driving me absolutely crazy!!! Just to be clear.... there is only one 1T mark, and one 2T mark.... right? So on reassembly, put it on 2T (not worrying about which actual stroke), w/ white marks facing away from e/o, paralell to head.... My understanding was that the cams were actually exactly the same, is that not true? Is there a mark that indicates any difference?

[spooph]

I don't know what "e/o" means...

However, you are correct, there is only ONE 1T and 2T mark each. Yes, on reassembly you put the crank at 2T (the line after the "T" should line up with the leading edge of the protrusion inside the sight hole), and then yes, cams in with marks as far away from one another as possible (meaning on away from one another, or on the outside of the engine), parallel to the top line of the head.

You are also correct in saying both cams are the same. In fact, if you look closely at the gears, you'll see "IN" and "EX" stamps on both gears. Thus, the white marks don't mean anything, other than to simply make it easy to ID which cam stamp marks to use for timing. Stating the same thing in a different way for clarification: You could swap the "IN" and "EX" cams with each other, and use the appropriate stamps and get the same result in a running engine.

However, being that there is 2 sets of marks on each cam gear, it's easier just to use the white mark for the denoted cam, make sense? If you have a small wooden dowel, take out cylinder 2 spark plug and put it down in the cylinder and visually affirm that indeed cylinder 2 is at DTC....

I know what a pain in the ass this is, I've gone through it many times. Keep at it, and if you get frustrated, stay away from it for a while. The more hurried you are, the more you rush, the more you screw up..... Best of luck!

[headshrink]

Thanks, I think I am slowly getting it. You were right about the cams being switched too. I carefully compared it to the drawing in the SM, both the lobe positions and markings. With the cams in the proper position, the lines actually lined up more exactly than when they were switched. It all fired up, which is a good sign.

I replaced the POS cam chain tensioner with a manual one. This SIGNIFICANTLY improved that crazy clicking! I was a little paranoid about getting it too tight, so hopefully it is all good. There is, however, another much more minor sounding click in there that sounds like something else. I can't pinpoint the location like I did with the CCT click, but I suspect it MIGHT be on #1 side. Since I didn't have the best grasp on the engine position when I adjusted the shims, I think I left it on 2T the whole time, never switching to 1T. I tried the method w/o the caps on, with free floating cams, so maybe this didn't throw off my measurement much, maybe it did. Other than a valve being possibly too loose, I don't know what it could be...... not to worried about it at the moment.

BTW: e/o in context meant "each other."

[spooph]

Oh good, glad you got it figured out!

How are you pinpointing the clicks? If you haven't used this method, you can take a fairly large screwdriver and push it onto the engine at various points and then pressing your ear to the handle and using it like a stethoscope.... You might have some luck with that... It might just be a valve that's slightly loose. At least it's loose, right?

Good on you for going with the manual cam chain tensioner! I hear a lot of racers/wrenchers are going that way. If you're interested what goes into making the stock automatic go further, here ya go: http://www.newninja.com/forums/f104/...uild-5684.html I aim on keeping mine for the bike's life. If I had a race bike though, I'd go with a manual one... And seeing that you now have an extra, can I obtain it from you somehow? That way I can have one rebuilt ready to be swapped at each valve adjust and rebuild them at my leisure.... Why am I sticking with it? They seem to work pretty darn good and exact if you keep them maintained... Many will probably say it's too much hassle for the benefits though...

Thanks for the e/o explanation!

Rubber side down!

[headshrink]

Possibly.... ask me in another couple weeks. I want to make sure everthing works on the road good and proper before letting go of the old one. Unfortunately it has been rainy, so no test ride for me. I can tell you though, when I replaced the CCT last time (OEM for OEM), it made no difference in clicking. These are truely crap.

[Nemesis]

The white marks should be facing away from each other. NOT each other like stated in the DIY.

This is coming from the Kawi engineer.

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

This is coming from the Kawi engineer.

On this forum?

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by headshrink

On this forum?

My contact.

[headshrink]

Something was a little... off today on my ride to work. First road test since service due to storm last night. I'm going to back off the CCT a tad. I perceive it as being a little tight, but that is highly subjective, and I was already thinking about that as a possibility.

There was also some noise & perceivable feel on my second turn (sorry so vague). I didn't see anything on the road, and bike didn't feel or sound any different after. When I got to work, I saw evidence of some coolant on the side (just a little). From the peek inside the fairing, it looks like is is coming from the filler cap. I think I overfilled it a tad (filled to full line on reserve), as it was overflowing a bit when I bled it on reassembly. I think the noise/feel was just it relieving a little pressure (here's hoping), but strange it didn't just go out the little drain hose.

[kkim]

what was the water temp reading?

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by kkim

what was the water temp reading?

Good question... I didn't even think to check at the moment, because my mind was on potential mechanical problems when it happened. However, during the course of my commute, I never went above 200. I was mostly in the 140-170 range.

Edit: I guess that isn't very hot... maybe it was air bubbles cavitating. Makes sense that is was on a lean.

[HorizonXP]

So I did my valve adjustment a while back, and put 6000+ km on it since then. She's winterized right now, but will be coming back out in a few weeks. So in another 6000 km, I'll need to do another valve check/adjustment.

I have a trip to Deal's Gap near the end of May. I'm hoping that the timing is such that I have to do the valve check after my trip. Have people been finding that their valves were out of spec on the 2nd check?

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by HorizonXP

Have people been finding that their valves were out of spec on the 2nd check?

Dealer did the first. Said it was within spec, "barely." Who knows for sure.

I did the second = needed adjustment.

I did the third = needed adjustment.

[headshrink]

spooph: I tried your screw driver method for tracking down the other rhythmic clicking... Would you think I'm crazy if I told you I thought I was hearing it from the carbs!? I thought it originally sounded like it was coming from the rear, like around the carbs, but dismissed it and thought the sound was just bouncing off the top of the tank... but with the screwdriver it really does sound like it is at the carbs.... I'm not saying it is for sure, but it sure sounded like it.

Oh, and I think I discovered what that sound was on that second L turn on the way to work that had me so worried......



So mad at myself for not double checking that second nut! Let this be a lesson to all of us.... this likely happened within one mile from my house. Loose things come off FAST (and they aren't even Harleys).

[Alex]

Oopsie. Do you know where to go back and look for it? I've had friends find the smallest little parts miles away when by all rights there was no reasonable chance of finding 'em again...

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by Alex

Oopsie. Do you know where to go back and look for it? I've had friends find the smallest little parts miles away when by all rights there was no reasonable chance of finding 'em again...

I do.... it is a fairly busy street, so it is difficult to spend much time in it on foot. I was out there with a flashlight tonight though. I suppose I could fabricate something in a pinch, since it is just a plate.

[spooph]

LOL! That just happened to me. I left my coolant drain bolt on the freeway on Sunday, along with most of my coolant. Noticed the bike overheating at 75mph and then figured it out hanging off the bike this way and that. Once diagnosed I pulled off and got it fixed later in the day. Just brought a new bolt and antifreeze and rode it home in the afternoon. It happens man... Good headsup though! Always recheck your bolts.

K, I wouldn't be surprised at the click coming from the carbs. It's a fairly large cavity that's great for resonating sound, so even if it's not originating there it might "sound" in there if it's close by. What could conceivably click in the carbs? Um, the slides going up and down? A bolts that's loose? Any reason you might have something that's causing the slides to click while measuring fuel? Otherwise I'd say keep hunting and wish you the best of luck!

[headshrink]

That actually makes a lot of sense.

[ninja250]

Was able to measure my valves with the cam covers on, no problems,
due to the removal of the radiator. (photos included)

FWIW, ALL my valves were tight accept for one at 7,300mi.
Seems like they set them tight-ish from the factory.

Bike idles much nicer with loose valves. Seems like more power too.
Test run if it ever stops raining.

Thanks for all the accumulated info regardless of being an outcast. It helped.
I used 5 links from four websites and the manual.

You guys make it sound so hard..

Nobody seems to mention cleaning off and replacing the "liquid gasket"
in any of their tutorials either like it mentions in the manual.
I elected to do so. (using a product called "Honda bond 4")

Also have to thank Paul... Was finally able to use the blockoff plate he made/sent me. =)

Guess I have to do Adrian's valves next









Thanks Paul!


Insert hand through front to measure exh valves like so


rechecking adjusted clearance

[adri99an]

Wow- looks as if you are a PRO at this. Nice work!! How is she running?

[ninja250]

Just have to be able to follow directions well and not drop anything into the engine that you forget. Also get the cams back in right. I put marks on my chain and cam gears and made sure to install the exh cam first while my marks lined up and engine at 2TDC... then the CCT.
(you can see a big glob of white on my exh cam gear in the pics above)
That was to be sure to line up the exh cam chain tension correctly while at 2T.

Runs great. Much more responsive to the throttle inputs. Feels more touchy, like a 600, after the adjustment. Like it was supposed to feel this way before..
Power is clean right up to redline.

thanks for inspiring me to get my ninja running again Adrian!

[spooph]

Well done KC! But why did you remove the radiator and the engine mount? I thought that would be too much extra work when I did mine...

Liquid gasket? Yea, I know the service manual says it should be used, but I heck, I haven't used it yet, no problems here.

[ninja250]

I think the manual told me to do it.
It was part of the "remove valve cover" section.
Made it all really simple in the long run.


It was fairly easy. Four bolts and the fan plug and horn plugs.
Also one more bolt for the water pump drain and some hose clamp screws.
I put some fresh coolant in while I was at it too along with new synthetic oil change and filter after running the lube out of the head upon rebuild.

I figured the liquid gasket wouldn't be necessary but also figured better safe than sorry knowing my luck. Hehe. Just following along with the manual. I did clean all the old liquid gasket off, pulled the head gasket out, cleaned it all off and removed all the rocks from the engine head near the gasket, then redid the liquid seal on the gasket, installed the gasket and finally the valve cover.

Appreciate your tutorial also, Sure I learned a few things from it somewhere.

[spooph]

do you mean valve cover gasket, instead of head gasket? From your pics the head looks to still be on the bike... :P

[Momaru]

Haha, welcome back KC. Glad the valve checkup went well for ya. Removing the radiator definitely makes it a a bit easier. I usually leave it on just because I've got small hands so there's plenty of space for me to get in from the left side.

FWIW I've replaced the liquid gasket every time I've gone in there. It's easy and cheap insurance. And if/when any of ya'll do remove the head, beware: those metal head gaskets are sharp!

Glad you finally got to use that blockoff plate. Sorry if it looks like sheet on a stick; that was my prototype cut.


Spooph, how in the Pete did you manage to get the valve cover off without pulling at least one engine mount? My experience has told me that's pretty much a requisite.

[spooph]

Just wiggle and wiggle... I took it out the left side of the bike. If you move it as far to the rear of the bike, you can get the valve cover over the cam gears and it will be free, just some finagling...

[randomwalk101]

We need a DIY video

[spooph]

unfortunately you're gonna have to wait another 9,000 miles for that one...

[Dbo03]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

Alright guys, so I couldn't wait any longer and this is what I was told:

The manual you (& many others) are looking at has an error.

Below is the correct info:

Use 1T mark for the left/#1 piston TDC.
Use 2T mark for the right/#2 piston TDC.

If following two things are correct, it doesn't matter whether 1T/2T or how many revolution you have to turn the crank when switching from one piston to another:

For the piston that you are measuring:

1. Inlet and exhaust cam lobes must be pointing AWAY from each other so that you can feel the "loosest or the largest" spot between the cam shaft and the bucket.
2. Stick in a skinny rod (like straight section of coat hanger) in the spark plug hole and make sure the piston is at the very top - TDC.
3. Measure the clearance by inserting the feeler gauge should be inserted between the round part of the cam and the tappet.
4. Forget about the white paint mark.
5. Do the calculation and find which shim needs to be inserted. Make note for all 4 valves for that piston.
6. Turn over the crank and do exactly the same for the #2 piston (right side).
7. Install correct sized shims on all valves.
8. You need to install the cam cover if you want to remeasure the clearance again with the new shims.

This clears up EVERYTHING I've been struggling with!