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Old July 18th, 2014, 07:45 PM   #1
garth285
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Turbo250.com - My Turbo Build Blog

Just thought I'd share with you guys I will be posting all my turbo and EFI conversion work on the 2009 Ninja 250 I have on my website

www.Turbo250.com

Enjoy!

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Old July 18th, 2014, 07:53 PM   #2
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Good luck for your project Shawn

And maybe as an idea, think about another way than the others: look for the lowest possible cr and use the highest possible boost - that's where the power is...
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Old July 18th, 2014, 11:52 PM   #3
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excited about your project Shawn !!
300 TBs are an excellent choice for feeding the 250 (32mm instead of ecotron's and 250's oem 28mm)

just one thing arouses my curiosity....I know for sure that those con rods are the weak spot of this engine, so question is: are you going to stick to the "low budget" side of your project and keep those fragile rods and if yes how do you plan for them to withstand an amount of boost capable of 75rwhp, which is the goal you have set yourself OR use some carillo etc rods to ensure that there will be a better reliability factor and possibly long-life success of your project??

I can't tell how good engineers are in Indonesia but all efforts at turbocharged 55+rwhp didn't last more than a few dyno runs or the break in-A/F ratio tuning stage... so now they stick somewhat around 45 but with almost double the stock engine's torque...

anyway, I really wish you every success !! I'm looking forward to more info and photos of your progress...
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Old July 19th, 2014, 06:55 AM   #4
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Good luck for your project Shawn

And maybe as an idea, think about another way than the others: look for the lowest possible cr and use the highest possible boost - that's where the power is...
Thats what people normally do but I am going to try a different approach... stock compression of 11.x:1 and high boost but tuning it to keep the detonation out as best as possible. We'll see if this works or not lol.

FYI almost all of the rally cars that are running out there now are doing the same, reason is the compression keeps the turbo able to spool quickly. We'll see if this acts the same
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Old July 19th, 2014, 06:58 AM   #5
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excited about your project Shawn !!
300 TBs are an excellent choice for feeding the 250 (32mm instead of ecotron's and 250's oem 28mm)

just one thing arouses my curiosity....I know for sure that those con rods are the weak spot of this engine, so question is: are you going to stick to the "low budget" side of your project and keep those fragile rods and if yes how do you plan for them to withstand an amount of boost capable of 75rwhp, which is the goal you have set yourself OR use some carillo etc rods to ensure that there will be a better reliability factor and possibly long-life success of your project??

I can't tell how good engineers are in Indonesia but all efforts at turbocharged 55+rwhp didn't last more than a few dyno runs or the break in-A/F ratio tuning stage... so now they stick somewhat around 45 but with almost double the stock engine's torque...

anyway, I really wish you every success !! I'm looking forward to more info and photos of your progress...
Yeah we'll the rods are defiantly one of the weak points in any engine. RacerX says each rod can hold I think it was 60hp or something but ya never know! I will find out... most likely the hard way but like I said before, an engine is only 300 bucks so a quick easy cheap fix lol.

Carrillo rods cost $400 each... 800 just in rods... if they hold say 60-70hp stock I'll just keep buying junk yard motors at $300.

The big key is is that I will be able to dial back the timing since using the ninja 300 EFI and Flash tuning the ECU, I also will be running E85 fuel and I am trying to get a head stud kit together as well.
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Old July 31st, 2014, 06:31 AM   #6
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OK, some updates.....

1. Just got my BT-003's in yesterday so I will finally be able to get her to the dyno hopefully Saturday morning to do baseline runs... running 110/140's (installing metal valve stems as well)

2. Received my Ninja 300 Bench flashing harness from Woolich racing

3. Received the rest of my electrical parts, needed a tip over sensor, a ground wire and a few other small things... as soon as I dyno the bike stock I will convert over to 300 EFI.

4. Picked up a few sprockets... 15,16t, and 40t Gearing for 109,116,123,131,140 MPH.... (supposedly)

5. Got in all oil lines and adapters I need for the turbo

6. Replaced entire front end of the bike.... forks, triple tree, front wheel.

7. Found I have three options for head studs... (1) ARP custom made ones for oh $1,000-$1,200. (2) drill and tap cases to fit 10mm ARP suds (3) use a set of studs that are almost the correct length but only 120,000psi strength vs ARP 180,000psi.

So lots of decisions but getting closer to BOOST!!!!

Will keep you guys updated....
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Old July 31st, 2014, 07:48 AM   #7
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16T will need some modification to fit. FYI.
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Old July 31st, 2014, 07:55 AM   #8
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Yep, found that out, no problem!
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Old July 31st, 2014, 08:26 AM   #9
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Old July 31st, 2014, 08:45 AM   #10
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sorry i couldnt be a huge help with the head studs, BUT ive found out VW uses 8mm head studs. Maybe there is a length that would work for you? Good luck with the build.
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Old July 31st, 2014, 08:49 AM   #11
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I looked into that! I believe they were to short :-( Below is a quote from a PM I shot a few guys on here about head studs.... Let me know your thoughts if anyone has some!!!

Quote:
Well here is what I have found....

Option 1: Go to bigger studs! ARP makes 10x1.25 studs that are 163mm long, this would require machining which I am not to happy about but at the same time the amount of clamping force a 10mm studs can provide over a 8mm stud is pretty great. You would have to machine all case bolts to fit the 10x1.25 threads.... which would require a complete tear down of the engine as well as boring the head and block holes to 11mm to fit the 10mm studs. These studs are sold in sets of 10 for about 100 bucks - ARP # 208-4301 Now the threads have 1.3" on one side and 1.0" on the other or 33mm and 25.4mm which I think would work out perfect because you only need 24mm inside the cases so that 33mm of thread might work out perfect! Food for thought about this way.....

Option 2 - Not 100% fond of but cheap enough to try it! I found a company that makes M8x1.25 studs that are 150mm long that have 35mm of threads on each side... ARP said the studs should be 155mm long using a 3mm washer under the ARP nuts.... well ARP does not have 3mm thick washers available but they do have ones a little more than half the thickness at 1.6mm What I am hoping is is that we could use these studs and have just enough to have the nuts be flush with the top side of the stud. This to me is taking a chance of it working or not but the studs are very inexpensive at about $25 for 6 studs and then another $40-$50 in ARP nuts and washers.

So heres the difference in strength that is making me consider stepping the cases up to 10mm over 8mm.

ARP 10mm tensile strength - 200,000psi
TECO 8mm tensile strength - 120,000psi

ARP 10mm torque spec - 60 FT LBS!!!!
ARP 8mm nuts - 25ft lbs :-/

Now the stock 8mm bolts only get 23ft lbs so so stying with a 8mm stud may not be the best for a boosted situation but it could be more affordable and easier to accomplish.

I personally would love to run the 10mm studs but I'm really not in the mood for a engine tear down... yet again if I pop a head gasket in the process I'll be shooting myself in the foot anyways. The 8mm studs I think would work but ... 1. they are not as strong as the ARP chromoly and 2 they are 5mm to short from what ARP is telling me the studs should be. I'd rather have 8mm of threads sticking out of the top then a nut half on which I dont think will happen but until I psychically put one in the engine we wont know for sure.

P.S. the 8mm bolts do not have the nice 3mm broach but the 10mm ARP's do. you can always double nut the stud and torque it that way or they make tools that will thread on and then lock to the stud to tighten...

Let me know yours thoughts!
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Old July 31st, 2014, 03:54 PM   #12
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Heres another thing to consider, when My head gasket blew it was between the two cylinders. I dont think any amount of clamping force would have prevented it. O ring the block? If your turboing it your going to have high cylinder pressure to contain.
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Old July 31st, 2014, 03:55 PM   #13
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Like I've told you already...
I expected sth like that would be the case with ARP... the thing is... will the casing hold that much bolting power ?? I mean is the amount of material around the studs enough if you drill it out ?? 250 cases are already somewhat fragile and opening up those hoes will not help its rigidity... helicoil might help but it will be all trial and error and we don't have that luxury...and what's more I think it will all be marginal around the head and especially the cyl block... we're not talking about an inline4 here with space between pistons and liquid flow...
the other 8mm solution is pretty close to factory as far as bolting power... so in that case why not stick with factory studs...
I am glad you are looking into it thorougly and so will I but it's vacation time here in Greece and it's kinda hard to get the info required... I am working on it though and as soon as I get anything interesting I'll be in touch with you...

oh and about the oil cooling thing....(is Bruce reading ??) I am going the way I did on my ZX-12... oil pump sprocket with 2 (probably 1 for the 250) teeth for extra flow... will aso give the water pump extra flow and I think that is critical... I will have it machine at a special machining shop for sprockets, axles etc... I highly reccomend you look into that too...


one more thing... I had a little chat with some mechanic who turbo-mods small bikes (single cylinder 100-150cc) and he told me that it will be much better and easier, as well as far more reliable to use the 300's pistons (and the cylinder block...)
reasons... numerous...
1. flatter crown will give you less compression without need for too many gaskets...will also give you better and faster flame travel so you can have less advance timing... all in one safer, with lower temps and less chance for any predetonation and/or lean spots of burning mixture...
2. they are lighter (both pistons and pins) and stress much less the rods which can give you a little extra "safe" boost...
3. they have a special design underneath to circulate more easily oil between the pin and piston bottom which results in even better heat dissipation (all that always in comparison to the 250's pistons and pins...)
4. the block has much better heat dissipation abilities as well but most important steadier meaning with less difference form top to bottom of "sleeve" (no sleeves of course, it's all aluminium...) meaning less chance of overheating points...
5. he claims that you can still use only the pistons since it is the block that has the clearance differences...pistons are exactly same size...
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Old July 31st, 2014, 04:11 PM   #14
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Quote:
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Heres another thing to consider, when My head gasket blew it was between the two cylinders. I dont think any amount of clamping force would have prevented it. O ring the block? If your turboing it your going to have high cylinder pressure to contain.
Bruce I am still thinking about that because I am going to use even bigger psitons than yours and they are going to be that close to one another...
So please tell me a couple of things to have into consideration...
1. you did check the head and cylinder block for warp before rebolting them together ?
2. did the gasket you used have two separate "gas sealing" circles, one for each piston or did they merge into one in the middle ??
3. did you use a special order gasket or did you open up a factory one ?
4. did you use any kind of sealant on it ?? (eg copper stuff or some kind of glue ??)
5. is there any posibility that the piston bumping at the squish point onto the head's surface, could have "lifted" the head so that it would let heat and gas find a weak point and make it through there little by little ??

I am trying to diagnose your engine's problem not only because I really want you to make this work, but also because I am probably going to encounter similar problems with my project to come...I am already thinking of keeping CR at 13:1 at the most...maybe even less...
how are things going over there for you ?? any progress ?? put it back together yet or did the damage ruin some parts ?? (hope not the JEwels...)
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Old July 31st, 2014, 04:27 PM   #15
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Are you building this bike for the mile the 1/4 mile or the salt? The cooling requirements and boost compression, fuel type everything you are going to deal with will be different at each venue.

As far as the block strength. There is plenty of meat around the bolt holes. But there are two dowel pins there to locate the gasket. I personally would pay the money for the 8mm studs before opening that can of worms with larger.

O ring the block and head use the thin studs. If you are lifting the head. Then you are probably doing something wrong.
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Old July 31st, 2014, 06:55 PM   #16
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I will probably just be doing the mile events and will most likely be doing the testing in "Mexico" to see what top speed we can get outta her.

As for cooling I will be running an oil cooler but E85 will help keep this engine VERY cool. My 300hp buss used to run hot as can be and running E85 I gained 30hp and my temps stay way lower.

I am looking into getting the block or cal head o-ringed but its actually pretty hard to find someone who is able to do so. Most of the o-ring tools don't fit on such small bore engines.

As far as studs I'm with you about getting into that can of worms!!! I am not going to open this motor until I pop it and then I will most likely just buy a spare engine for about $300 bucks....

Honestly if I can get say 10 passed out of a motor I'd be happy lol... this is a budget build and I'm not looking to spend $800 in rods when I can buy a whole motor so cheap and just tune it pretty close to.. uhhh not happy I guess you can say it?

I have quite a bit of tuning experience in boosted engines and how to get a bike to go fast. I honestly think even if I ran lower boost I'd be able to break some records.



I got the tires all mounted today, they look great, installed metal valve stems as well, took barely any weight to balance them. I can't get over how damn heavy that small rear wheel is!!! But yet again I'm used to magnesium wheels
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Old July 31st, 2014, 07:31 PM   #17
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Quote:
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Bruce I am still thinking about that because I am going to use even bigger psitons than yours and they are going to be that close to one another...
So please tell me a couple of things to have into consideration...
1. you did check the head and cylinder block for warp before rebolting them together ?
2. did the gasket you used have two separate "gas sealing" circles, one for each piston or did they merge into one in the middle ??
3. did you use a special order gasket or did you open up a factory one ?
4. did you use any kind of sealant on it ?? (eg copper stuff or some kind of glue ??)
5. is there any posibility that the piston bumping at the squish point onto the head's surface, could have "lifted" the head so that it would let heat and gas find a weak point and make it through there little by little ??

I am trying to diagnose your engine's problem not only because I really want you to make this work, but also because I am probably going to encounter similar problems with my project to come...I am already thinking of keeping CR at 13:1 at the most...maybe even less...
how are things going over there for you ?? any progress ?? put it back together yet or did the damage ruin some parts ?? (hope not the JEwels...)
Stock gasket opened up, no sealer. This may be the cause of the failure due to the fact that with so little squish the flame front, if you will, would be hitting the gasket material rather than the exposed cylinder wall that is typically there. So I ordered a thicker head gasket made of copper (thanks racerx for the supplier) and am now thinking that I should have raised the cylinder up more with a base gasket to expose the cylinder wall more as a thicker head gasket will do nothing to test my theory.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 10:10 AM   #18
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Well my project is on a slight hold. In the process of moving.... I did get a chance to ride the bike around the neighborhood though... Just wanted to scrub in the new tires.....

Still have not had it on the dyno to do a baseline but I have everything to swap it over to EFI.... just need to find the time :-(

Oh I did get my head studs in though.... I have to see if they will work out but if so I may have found hope for the ninja 250-300's for inexpensive head studs!
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Old August 7th, 2014, 04:21 PM   #19
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Sounds good so far!
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Old August 7th, 2014, 05:14 PM   #20
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Watch your quench closely. Run it as tight as you dare. I have no 250 engine build experience, so I don't know how much the rods and pistons "grow" at speed under boost. I ran my old school KZ-1000 motors at .040 with stock rods, and at .035 with Falicon rods.

Poor quench means instant detonation under boost. I think I was getting some pretty good cylinder pressure running .050 nitrous and .052 fuel jets on a 1425 motor with 900 psi bottle pressure and 9 psi fuel pressure.

I kept it sealed with ARP studs and Power Rings. (O-Rings did not get the job done). Oh, and I had to make aluminum base gaskets. Paper ones "squished" out from the clamping force.

Nobody makes Power Rings as small as the 250 bore, but anything can be made, and you could use a stock head gasket (with some mods to it). But you would need a skilled machinist. (I just checked at MTC Engineering, and they don't have power rings smaller than 78mm, but I bet they can make some in your size.)
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Old August 7th, 2014, 07:02 PM   #21
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If you do drill out the holes to 10mm, know that the increased diameter of the stud will distort the cylinder walls more and could cause uneven wear. The correction process will require a torque plate, most likely custom made, clamping the plate over the block with the new studs and torqued to spec, then bored.
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Old August 8th, 2014, 05:16 AM   #22
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If you do drill out the holes to 10mm, know that the increased diameter of the stud will distort the cylinder walls more and could cause uneven wear. The correction process will require a torque plate, most likely custom made, clamping the plate over the block with the new studs and torqued to spec, then bored.
I didnt even think about anything like that! I guess I'm still stuck on the Nikisil plated cylinders, the hayabusa guys run 1/2" studs and they just drill them out right on a drill press and never have issues..... Maybe I should grab a set of ninja 300 cylinders instead if I go this route!

For now I will be running 8mm studs though so no drilling yet!
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Old August 10th, 2014, 04:43 AM   #23
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The 300 uses a wet deck cylinder. Would be my last choice for anything with high cylinder pressures. And some good nickel-iron sleeves will help to keep things together.
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Old August 14th, 2014, 12:58 PM   #24
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I didnt even think about anything like that! I guess I'm still stuck on the Nikisil plated cylinders, the hayabusa guys run 1/2" studs and they just drill them out right on a drill press and never have issues..... Maybe I should grab a set of ninja 300 cylinders instead if I go this route!

For now I will be running 8mm studs though so no drilling yet!
don't say I didn't tell you so... lighter pistons and pins, graphite coating, extra heat dissipation and less compression to start with...
like our friend said, it is an open deck, which looks a bit fragile for people with car-turboing experience... but since you have already worked on a busa, you know that it is solid enough to hold the pressure you are about to go for... so, unless you are heading for 1bar+, there are other things to worry about rather than the open deck on that engine...
good you have a breakthrough with the studs... would it be possible to share some code/type or sth to give as data and ask for/look around in our domestic market ??
any other progress so far Shawn ?? I am looking forward to it...
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Old August 15th, 2014, 05:41 AM   #25
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Yeah not getting that much money tied up in a little engine like this. If I were going to do anything I would lower the compression but I would improve the oiling system first.

I did a little update on my website www.turbo250.com

Got my race fairings in yesterday though....

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Old August 15th, 2014, 07:29 AM   #26
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nice looking !! but exhaust stil stock ???
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Old August 15th, 2014, 07:30 AM   #27
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Waiting to find the time to dyno.... I want a baseline of this bike before and after fuel injection and then turbo lastly.....

Stock it is all stock as of now.
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Old September 1st, 2014, 07:02 PM   #28
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Fuel Injection UPDATES!

http://www.turbo250.com/uncategorize...rsion-stage-2/
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Old September 1st, 2014, 07:22 PM   #29
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Old September 1st, 2014, 07:35 PM   #30
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Old September 2nd, 2014, 05:22 AM   #31
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Looking good!
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Old September 4th, 2014, 11:22 AM   #32
garth285
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Finally got a flywheel puller.... going to try to have everything else hooked up today! Maybe a test fire tonight or tomorrow!
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Old September 4th, 2014, 07:39 PM   #33
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WE HAVE SPARK!!!!!

Today I was able to borrow a buddys flywheel puller so tonight I swapped to flywheel and started hooking things up. About an hour later I powered the bike up and what do ya know at least the sub throttle plates are cycling! I popped off a ignition coil and took a spare plug, grounded it and spark spark spark!

Since I am going to be running a custom fuel system with a external pump and regulator I am going to have to get my fuel pressure elsewhere..... where that is is actually off my truck lol.... there is a -4 AN fitting on the chevy fuel rails so I am going to tap that 44psi of fuel pressure and feed the throttle bodies tomorrow night and hopefully the bike will fire right up! Don't hate on the rigging! lol... only temporary!!!

Pics of the rotor and the harness laying in the bike.... going to have to do quite a bit of cleaning up with the harness to make it all neat but it will get there.... After I get the bike up and running it will be going to the fabricator for the turbo setup.

Last but not least a quick video of the throttle bodies working :-)


Link to original page on YouTube.



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Old September 5th, 2014, 01:27 AM   #34
autocrossn
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Are you looking to go to low compression pistons?
I know JE can do custom pistons but I think you have to do 4 at a time
Id go in on them with you if you want?
I think im going to turbo my 250 this winter...
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Old September 5th, 2014, 06:02 AM   #35
garth285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by autocrossn View Post
Are you looking to go to low compression pistons?
I know JE can do custom pistons but I think you have to do 4 at a time
Id go in on them with you if you want?
I think im going to turbo my 250 this winter...

No I'm going to stay stock internals for now other than studs and some beefy clutch springs. I'm looking to keep costs down and also I am going to be running E85 which will help keep things at bay.

These engines are pretty darn small so keeping the compression in the motor will help the turbo spool a little quicker.

Pistons are pretty expensive and rods are even more expensive.

I can pick up spare ninja 250 motors for $300 all day long, would be easier just to replace the engine if you pop one.
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Old September 5th, 2014, 06:50 PM   #36
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Vroom Vroom!

Well she runs! Kinda lol. I hooked up the bike to my truck and cranked it over but no start. Started checking things from spark to injector voltage and I narrowed down my no start problem to the injectors. Using a spare set I have but larger I was able to verify the injectors won't open going straight to 12v so tomorrow I'll hook up the larger injectors and give it a go but I had some carb spray and she stayed running for a little!

I used to have an ultrasonic cleaning tool for injectors but it doesn't work anymore but I am planning on running the larger injectors anyways so I'll set them up tomorrow.

Will keep you posted!
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Old September 18th, 2014, 06:29 PM   #37
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Small update:

Have been super busy but I finally got my "test" fuel system all up and running. Walbro 255 inline pump with an Aeromotive 1:1 Fuel Pressure Regulator. I have it rigged up to pull fuel from a gas can on the floor and return to the same can just for now but I have a rock solid steady fuel pressure now.

As for the bad part.... the fuel injectors from sitting have clogged up :-( So I am going to drop them in my buddys ultrasonic machine to flush them out... hopefully.... but if that does not work I am expecting some others in the mail here shortly.

I am getting spark, getting juice to the injectors but no fire.... the bike has ran on carb spray though lol....

Will keep posted... as soon as I get the bike running I am going to bring it to my welder and he will fab up all the turbo stuff.
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Old September 23rd, 2014, 05:11 PM   #38
garth285
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Link to original page on YouTube.

http://www.turbo250.com/uncategorize...age-3-running/

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Old September 27th, 2014, 11:16 AM   #39
garth285
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Well I worked on the bike a little more, finally got 330cc injectors in to replace the 440's I had. The bike runs much smoother.

I had to lower the fuel pressure to 30psi with the 440's for it to run but with the 330's I was able to put the fuel pressure back up to 44psi with some fuel removed.
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Old September 27th, 2014, 11:23 AM   #40
Flying
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I'm holding my breath as I read your progress. I would love to try my hand at fitting and testing a turbo 300 system.
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