Knee out, NOT down

[JMcDonald]

Originally Posted by manos33rd

And to JM, I agree, weighting the peg DOES cause the rider to naturally shift his weight, but even if he didn't shift his weight, it would still cause the bike to change degrees

So you are saying you could wobble the bike up and down mid-turn, without changing your speed, the turning radius, rider position, or bar input? Just pressing on one peg or the other will magically cause the bike (and the rider, since you yourself say it still applies whether or not the rider changes is position relative to the bike), you can cause the bike to lean up and down at will? I'm sorry, but this discuss is only over your head.

Originally Posted by manos33rd

One, when you change the weight of the bike(by weighting the pegs) you change the lean angle

This is ONLY done by shifting your weight relative to the bike. If the rider moves to the left relative to the bike by pressing on the right peg in a left turn, then yes the bike will naturally rise to offset the shift in CG in order to maintain the balance requirements of a given turn radius at a given speed.

Originally Posted by manos33rd

Its just how it is.

I don't think anyone is doubting that there is something to be said for peg weighting and the end result of controlling lean. I am, however, weary of your [inaccurate] explanations.

Originally Posted by manos33rd

and one of my original points, JM, is that by weighting the pegs, you ARE changing your position, at least from a mass standpoint, as far as the bike is concerned whether or not you move at all.

You cannot change your center of gravity without moving. You can push and push and push all you want, but the CG is not going to change, and thus the bike is not going to rotate about the axis between the contact patches.

Originally Posted by manos33rd

That is, assuming your butt is not on the seat. If you guys are planted in the seat and trying this it won't work because the "weight" is on the seat the whole time and you're just flexing your muscles and flexing your leg into the peg, but no weight transfer is taking place.

While that inference is incorrect, I think we are getting to the same conclusion that the actual mechanism for peg weighting to work is from your leg muscles pushing your CG around, which cannot work if your butt is firmly on the seat. I asked about this earlier.

Originally Posted by manos33rd

To try this at home without resulting road rash, but a HARD lesson on why this can't be argued, grab a BMX bike with the trick pegs on the back wheel. Get up to about 10 or so mph, stand up off the seat, put your feet on the back pegs, and just lift one of your feet off the back peg. You will IMMEDIATELY have to compensate with the bars to stay on course.

This is obvious, but still irrelevant. However, even in your own example, the most important bit, which you forgot, is that with the bike leaning one direction (toward the side of the now-weighted peg), your body must lean the other direction in order to balance the bike without changing direction. This is exactly the same case with a motorcycle: for the motorcycle to change lean angles without changing direction, the rider's center of gravity must move inversely proportional to the bike's CG.

FWIW, the reason steering input would be required in your above example is because the front wheel will naturally turn when the bike is leaned. That was not the original point, but it was something I thought you should understand.

I am not sure anyone here appreciates stubbornness, btw.

[JMcDonald]

Oh, and here is one of those billions of links you mentioned. Though, this one happens to exactly refute what you have been arguing: that peg weighting changes the CG.

http://www.bestbeginnermotorcycles.c...center-gravity

But I'm really tired of seeing people claim that where you make contact with the bike has anything to do with your center of gravity. This is just misunderstood physics and, while I know this is the internet and it's stupid to try to fix misunderstandings like this, I have to try.

Again, the most logical process by which weighting the outside peg picks the bike up is that by weighting the outside peg, you are in a sense allowing your body to "fall" more toward the left side of the bike, changing the CG and allowing the bike to stand more upright.

[backinthesaddleagain]

I just want to ride! All this thinking about what I am doing is too much work. LOL didn't think my thread would spark so much sprited discussion.

[Alex]

Manos - continuing to call something simple and easy, and then proceeding to butcher the explanations with irrelevant and misleading examples, is becoming tiresome. When pressed, then extending it to implying that anyone who disagrees with your comments (including people with, you know, actual engineering degrees) is less experienced or isn't thinking clearly, isn't exactly calming the waters.

Weighting the pegs isn't witchcraft, and yes, it can have an effect. But you're greatly exaggerating the effects, and discounting the related activities that are causing the majority of the physical effects on the bike related to lean angle and cornering behavior. Bar input. Body position. Throttle control. Get those right, and you're 95% of the way there to smooth, fast, and safe cornering skills. Bake in optimal peg weighting at the end of that, and some time can be gained on track, and a rider with those skills can take advantage of an otherwise equally skilled rider who isn't able to take advantage of those (relatively small) effects.

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

I just want to ride! All this thinking about what I am doing is too much work. LOL didn't think my thread would spark so much sprited discussion.

Just remember to stick your knee out just a little bit

[JMcDonald]

No, I've changed my position. If you're knee ain't draggin', you ain't ridin'.

[JMcDonald]

And looking at that link I posted above, I didn't realize it was a whole discussion. It was just one of the first links I found that wasn't simply a message board with people simply asking of they should weight the pegs.

But, they are all agreeing the only way it works is when you allow your body to move independently of the bike, which is what I've been saying is the only logical mechanism by which peg weighting can work.

It sounds like all it ultimately accomplishes is to allow the rider to move the bike independently of himself. If one is out of options of doing this with his thighs or arms** (pulling his weight to either side and therefore raising or lowering the bike during the turn), then the same thing could be accomplished with applying pressure to either foot peg.

**I know you aren't supposed to do this, especially mid-corner, but I am just illustrating that it all just allows the rider to move the bike independently of himself.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

I just want to ride! All this thinking about what I am doing is too much work. LOL didn't think my thread would spark so much sprited discussion.

Yeah, great job, troublemaker. lol!

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

I just want to ride! All this thinking about what I am doing is too much work. LOL didn't think my thread would spark so much sprited discussion.

I'm blaming you for my headache, Greg.

[JMcDonald]

Manos, im a little disappointed you didnt stick it out. I was hoping we could all learn something, but you just left us with "Im right and you're all stupid!" as you stomped your feet out :/ .
Posted via Mobile Device

[ally99]

Just let it rest! He spoke his mind, we spoke ours, so let's agree to disagree and not keep . Cheers! Go outside and ride!

[backinthesaddleagain]

James - sending aspirin your way. Ally - went out and rode!

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

James - sending aspirin your way. Ally - went out and rode!

*opens box*

What...no stripper?

[backinthesaddleagain]

all out of them, and box was too small anyway.

[JMcDonald]

Originally Posted by ally99

Just let it rest! He spoke his mind, we spoke ours, so let's agree to disagree and not keep . Cheers! Go outside and ride!

For the horse to die, an issue must be resolved. Agreeing to disagree is not resolving an issue. But, if nobody else wants to try to get the real details worked out, then forgive my desire to learn.




BTW, I've found I've been mostly putting my weight on the inside peg. I've been getting pretty far off the bike, being able to see my outside shoulder through the inside mirror while sliding a whole cheek off at the same time, so it would be pretty difficult to get much weight on that outside peg.

[backinthesaddleagain]

lots of inside peg weight here. article blamed the right side pipes as making it hard to keep a peg on the right peg during a left turn.

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by JMcDonald

For the horse to die, an issue must be resolved. Agreeing to disagree is not resolving an issue. But, if nobody else wants to try to get the real details worked out, then forgive my desire to learn.

J, what was the issue you wanted resolved? (I'm seriously asking, as I don't feel like reading the past responses...too many convoluted explanations and whatever).

[JMcDonald]

Yeah, it seems like in some cases trying to keep enough weight on the outside foot to "weight" the peg would actually prevent the rider from getting off as far as he could otherwise. Of course, if one has enough traction to really lean the bike over, then there is not as much need to get as far off the bike (because the elbow would already rubbing heh). But, I definitely don't get anywhere near that traction from the tires, so for me trying to keep weight on the outside peg would prohibit the optimal body position for best manipulated traction.

[JMcDonald]

I have also been using my inside knee against the tank to help push my weight off the bike.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

Re the bmx example is that because the rider's weight far exceeds the bike's? Code says you can't steer a road bike with your feet, though he does say you can with a dirtbike (wicked paraphrased). Not that he is the only answer in town.
Misti - your thoughts?

Originally Posted by manos33rd

This isn't about steer, its about lean angle, and how lean angle affects knee point, and pointers on how to remove it. You can't steer a bike with the pegs, and I never said that. As far as the example of the bmx, the weight of the vehicle is not as important as how the balance point is affected by a bias to the right or left in weight. And Code is not the only answer, but undisputable due to his ridiculous amount of years in the game, road and track experience, and other riders that have put his theories to the test and saw immediate riding improvements. Again. Just to be clear. Never said anything about steering with the pegs. Jesus. -shakes head-

Holy smokes, take a weekend away from the forum and look what happens Discussion explosion!!!

I don't have enough time to read every single post (my kid is due to wake up from his nap any minute now) but I scanned through and think I have the gist of the discussion. Here is my two cents.

As mentioned here, you cannot steer the bike by weighting the pegs (this seems to be agreed upon). The main questions appears to be, how does peg weighting effect hanging off, body position and knee dragging.

As we know, the main point of hanging off and of having good body position is to be able to reduce the amount of lean angle needed for cornering at a certain speed. The faster you go the more you have to lean the bike, so by hanging off and giving yourself more available lean angle you will enable yourself to go faster. Less lean angle makes the bike more stable, gives you more ground clearance, gives you more traction, leaves you with a margin of error in case you had to lean it over a little more and all that allows you to go faster.

One of the things we talk about when discussing good body position and hanging off is lower body stability. The more stable you are on the bike the better all of your control actions will be. You are able to remain more relaxed, have better and more effective steering inputs and keep some of the weight off the seat to allow the suspension to work better.

At the Superbike School we teach a skill called Pivot Steering which involves weighting the OUTSIDE PEG. This technique is all about efficiency. By using the outside peg as a pivot point the rider is able to get a more effective steering input. Steering is quicker with less effort. As the rider approaches the corner he weights the outside peg and presses on the inside handlebar to initiate steering. From Twist II "His body is stronger in this position because he is like a camera tripod; the farther out you spread the legs, the more stable it becomes."

Not only does this create an effective steering input but weighting the OUTSIDE peg also helps to "reduce your weight on the seat and and puts the majority of the weight on that lower, outside peg." This helps steer the bike as already mentioned but it also helps to allow the suspension to work better underneath you and is ideal for riding surfaces that are less than smooth. Picture a jockey riding a horse, he is up in the saddle letting the horse move up and down below him.

Pressing on the outside peg helps to anchor the outside leg into the tank which allows you to easily keep your weight off the seat and helps with overall rider stability.

I'll try to read all the posts individually and comment if I have the time.....

Misti

[JMcDonald]

The last few days I've been working on keeping weight off the handlebars when riding aggressively. I'm slowly getting used to supporting myself with my legs and back. I rode for about an hour this morning, and everytime I was hanging off the bike I would get my body position, and then take my left hand off the bar to obviously force myself to support all my weight with my legs and back.

I never thought I'd get to the point where I could do that (I saw it in a video once, where the guy was dragging knee with only one hand in figure-eights), but I guess I'm barely starting to get it! I notice I am still squeezing the tank with my inside knee, so I am not anywhere nearing draggin' it, and I still can't understand how someone could only hold on eith one hand (supporting no weight) and only one leg.

I like learning!

Just sharing .

[Misti]

Originally Posted by JMcDonald

The last few days I've been working on keeping weight off the handlebars when riding aggressively. I'm slowly getting used to supporting myself with my legs and back. I rode for about an hour this morning, and everytime I was hanging off the bike I would get my body position, and then take my left hand off the bar to obviously force myself to support all my weight with my legs and back.

I never thought I'd get to the point where I could do that (I saw it in a video once, where the guy was dragging knee with only one hand in figure-eights), but I guess I'm barely starting to get it! I notice I am still squeezing the tank with my inside knee, so I am not anywhere nearing draggin' it, and I still can't understand how someone could only hold on eith one hand (supporting no weight) and only one leg.

I like learning!

Just sharing .

Try putting the bike on a center stand or even on the kickstand and adjusting your Body Position from there. Doing it statically, before you have the bike in motion will really help pinpoint exactly what you are doing.

Get into the same BP that you use when riding and try to take the inside hand off the handlebar. If you notice that you are slipping off the bike or that you can't let go without falling off then adjust your BP until you can do it.

Most of the time you just need to sit a little further back in the seat, hang your butt off a little less or (hint) lift your outside heel up and push your toes into the footpeg. This often helps you get a better push/anchor with your outside leg onto the tank.

Try that before riding and then see if you can get it while on the move. Hope that helps!

Misti

[Yoda]

Saw a video somewhere that showed one way to work body positioning. Bike was on stands and folks were practicing going from one knee lock to the other. Once there taking hands off bars. If weight and position are correct letting go of the handle bars shouldnt change your position.

Here are the two videos that helped me.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[JeffM]

Experimented with the body positioning as explained in the above videos. Wow, now I know what a stable position feels like. That little hip twist just locks you into a solid spot and allows for light pressure on the bars in a turn. +1.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by JeffM

Experimented with the body positioning as explained in the above videos. Wow, now I know what a stable position feels like. That little hip twist just locks you into a solid spot and allows for light pressure on the bars in a turn. +1.

Glad it helped.

Safety note: Between those vids and putting the clip ons on the 250 found myself having to double check my turning. Without realizing it I started turning in later to corners and dropping lower. Since I dont wear armor pants/knee pucks riding to and from work that could be bad.