Is Ethanol harmful to a Ninja 250?

[n4mwd]

I was reading on another website that ethanol is being increasingly mixed with the gasoline supply. In Florida, the requirement is that all pumps be mixed with up to 10%. There is now a quiet move to increase this to 20%.

The Florida law that I found said that motorcycles are exempt from having to run Ethanol fuel, but unfortunately, there aren't many places that sell "motorcycle-only" gas.

One possible problem with the Ninja is that it uses a vented gas tank such that the alcohol in the fuel could mix with the humidity and take on water.

Does anybody have any insight into the use of Ethanol in Ninjas? Just how harmful is it? (Aside from lowering fuel mileage.)

[FrugalNinja250]

Some info:

http://www.fuel-testers.com/understa...l_percent.html

http://www.fuel-testers.com/florida_..._news_e10.html

Do you have a link to the Florida law mandating E20? That's really odd because most cars still cannot run on anything more than E10 and mandating a change to E20 or higher is certain to generate billions of dollars in damage claims as well as multiple class-action lawsuits. I can't see any lawmaker or fuel industry wanting to set themselves up for that kind of liability.

Edit to add:
Also, because of certain Constitutional Amendments it's not legally possible for a law to mandate that a vehicle run on a fuel other than what it was originally designed and certified to run on, though it's possible to mandate what fuels are made and sold. That's how lead was finally (thankfully) done away with in fuels. With ethanol percentages it's a little different because vehicles that weren't designed to run on high ethanol contents won't run on them well, if at all. Near as I can tell, current FL law limits ethanol content to 10% (E10) and it can be less unless the refinery mixes it incorrectly. EPA figures indicate that only 15% of the current fleet of vehicles in this country are capable of running higher than E10.

[bob706]

Aside from the decrease in mileage the only harm would be to the fuel system in the bike. I would not let the bike sit for very long without running it.

[Cuongism]

E15 would be next and you'll definitely be able to distinguish the pumps that carry it once it's introduced.

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/additive/e15/

Generally speaking, 2007 and newer cars may handle it, but most other vehicles including ALL motorcycles won't be able to. It's not a direct replacement of E10 when it happens since it'll damage most vehicles so you really have nothing to worry about. There'll be large signs and literature warning you about misfueling.

[TenaciousD]

Florida hasn't mandated E20, but the EPA has approved E15 for cars newer than 2007.
Will gas stations add a pump for E15 so newer cars can use it? I doubt it.

Here's the story: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/business...,4552816.story

[n4mwd]

I heard the E20 mentioned on "Democracy Now" a few days ago. It wasn't Florida specific.

Its possible to make a fuel injected engine flex fuel capable, but for carburetor engines, a drastic change in alcohol percentage may require rejetting.

That is ignoring the potential for damage to the fuel system parts. I called a lawnmower service center this morning and the guy said that a large number of lawn equipment engine failures he sees are the direct result of using E10 gas. He specifically mentioned rubber parts and diaphragms.

I personally have noticed that the gas from some stations has more power than others. I haven't seen anything really bad yet, but the difference in power is interesting and the E10 percentage seems a likely culprit.

I have also noticed that some people who have the pre-88 Ninjas are reporting bad mileage (like 40-50 mpg) while others (like me) are seeing 60-70 mpg. I am wondering if the actual E10 percentage may have something to do with that.

[Yoda]

Here in the NE they definitely hit that 10% mark as the colder months roll in. Bike has dropped from averaging 55mpg to about 50ish, same commute route same riding habits.

Our 94 exploders (more then half dead anyway) bucks and sputters with this stuff till it gets good and warm.

[FrugalNinja250]

We've been 100% E10 for several years now, mainly because our refiners get a 45-cent tax subsidy for every gallon of corn ethanol added to gasoline sold here. During the change (before I had a bike) I noticed about a 10-15% decrease in gas mileage of my car. On the bike, I was getting in the mid-50's with the stock gearing, and that jumped to the low to mid 60's with the change to a 15T front sprocket. I've gotten as high as 68 mpg, mostly low-speed highway (<60 mph), and as low as 45 on a leg of a recent long trip where I was averaging 80+ with full saddle bags (lots of wind resistance).

I haven't noticed any damage to any of the carb parts of my bike, or my mower for that matter.

[rockNroll]

gas with ethanol needs a richer mixture than straight gasoline, so either you're running lean with ethanol mix or you're running rich with straight gasoline. The higher percentage the ethanol in your fuel, the leaner you're running.

20% ethanol isn't gonna run proper in cars that aren't designed for it, they'll be throwing lean codes and putting out too much pollution. Requiring the use of 20% in cars not designed for it just isn't gonna happen.

[highpsiguy]

20 percent is coming. I run several blowers and small engines everyday. I am having one heck of a time trying to keep them running right with the 10 percent.

The small engine shop that does my work has small cans of fuel that you can buy that doesn't have any of the harmful stuff in it. Right now I cannot see how I could afford to run it. When it goes to 20 percent I won't have any choice.

My small engine mechanic says many many small engines will no doubt be ruined.

I already use Sta-bil fuel additive in any machine that I let sit over 2 to 3 weeks. The fuel just goes bad right away.

I suggest putting Sta-bil additive in your bikes tank every tank if you don't ride it all the time. A little dab with do you and its not that expensive figuring our fuel mileage.

Maybe, the Sta-bil additive will help with the 20 percent as well? Dunno...

[Racer x]

The E 20 will be the death of old bikes. The carbs will be trashed and not may people will want to pay to fix them . Now with E 10 I have a full spring cleaning jets and carb. I tell people to use fuel stabilizer. But not all do it .

Drain the carbs if the bike is going to sit for more than a month. Either run the engine till it stops or open the carb bowls and let it out that way, Carefull not to make a fire or ecological disaster.

[M]

Originally Posted by Racer X

I tell people to use fuel stabilizer. But not all do it .

+100

I use Sta-bil year-round on my cycles, and small engines, as 99% of the fuel around me is E10. An ounce of prevention...

[n4mwd]

Running E100 would be kinda cool, but not if its going to hurt the bike.

I'm still looking for a good E0 supplier. Currently I have 2 definite sources, Marine fuel and avgas. The only avgas that is acceptable is called MoGas and there are not very many airports in Florida that sell it. The standard avgas is 100LL (100 octane leaded) which would likely either not run or damage the bike or both.

The third potential source is from a gas wholesaler who sells off-road gas. Around here there are several that sell off road diesel, but I don't know of any that sell off road gas. There just aren't that many people using gasoline powered tractors and heavy equipment.

So far, I have not had any problems with my Ninja, but I am reading a lot of "It was running and then it quit" posts on the web that have me concerned. Especially when they ultimately track the problem back to the fuel system.

[FrugalNinja250]

I'm just now coming up on 20k miles riding on the '06 I bought in March '09 with 2k miles on it. The carbs were completely crudded up, but I attributed that to the fact the bike sat outdoors at an apartment complex for most of its 3 year life being ridden (and refilled) only occasionally. To make matters worse, the PO modified the petcock so that it was on *all the time*, resulting in every gallon of gas put into that bike for those three years evaporating out via the carb float bowls.

Since cleaning the carbs and putting the bike in service I've had no problems with the carbs. My bike quit because a coil connector corroded and frayed apart, and it's hard to start after it's been sitting for more than a week (which I attribute to the carbs being dry and the time it takes for them to refuel while cranking vacuum is applied to the petcock), but all in all it's been very reliable on E10. I also have several small engine items such as mowers, weedeaters, and blowers. The lawnmower used to need a couple of carb cleanings a season, but I fixed that with an inline fuel filter. I haven't had to get into the carb on the main mower in two years, and it still starts on the first pull, on E10 mixed with bad gas from a parts bike I bought a couple of years ago. I mow a 25,000+ sq. foot yard, FWIW. Same for the blowers and weedeaters, since installing new fuel tank filters in them I've had no problems with the carbs at all.

I don't know why there is so much hysteria and misinformation circulating around about a supposed move to E20 fuel any time in the near future; it just isn't going to happen. Only 15% of the vehicles on the road today will run properly on anything higher than E10, and those are mainly flex-fuel vehicles. The only thing the EPA has done is to simply study (research, learn, understand) how many vehicles will run on E20. It's just a study. Not a mandate, not even a good indicator of any future legislative intent since the EPA cannot legislate anything.

Believe it or not, but not every "sky is falling" rumor on the internet is true.

[bdavison]

You want my opinion...
Ethanol is the $&*#)($&*(&#$&*(#$&*#(&$)@)($*(#)@*$*#() choice of fuel ever.

Its absolute CRAP.

It burnishes valves, it cruds up exhaust packing, eats rubber, it sucks up water, it gums up carbs and jets, and its completely useless after ONE week of sitting, and it runs like $&@_

Its freakin corn syrup for cryin out loud. What idiot would want to feed a combustion engine corn syrup.

Stupid hippies and the EPA....grrrrrr

[n4mwd]

Regarding Ethanol, there is a movement to refine technologies to make it out of cellulosic materials - rather than corn syrup and cane sugar. In other words, make it out of lawn waste.

The interesting thing is that some of the processes used could be used to make other things that are more suitable for cars such as heptane and octane. I'm not sure why they don't just do that. Alcohol has too many storage and MPG problems associated with it.

But as a history note, when Ford started making cars, they were designed to run on pure alcohol and not gasoline. The reason was because when cars first came out, there wasn't a network of gas stations around like there is today. So people basically had to make it themselves or visit the local distillery.

Then came prohibition and alcohol was outlawed. The oil companies didn't waste any time stepping up to the plate and factory made alcohol burning cars went into the history books. When prohibition ended, cars didn't change back. No reason to. Gas was cheap and plentiful back then.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Then came prohibition and alcohol was outlawed. The oil companies didn't waste any time stepping up to the plate and factory made alcohol burning cars went into the history books. When prohibition ended, cars didn't change back. No reason to. Gas was cheap and plentiful back then.

Not exactly. Prohibition didn't happen until 1920, at which point gasoline was far and away the most prevalent fuel already being used. Ford's Model T, the first mass-production car, was in fact designed to run on alcohol, gasoline, or even kerosene. But very early on, gasoline became the most prevalent, well before prohibition (due to availability, price, ease of use, etc.).

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by bdavison

You want my opinion...
Ethanol is the $&*#)($&*(&#$&*(#$&*#(&$)@)($*(#)@*$*#() choice of fuel ever.

Its absolute CRAP.

It burnishes valves, it cruds up exhaust packing, eats rubber, it sucks up water, it gums up carbs and jets, and its completely useless after ONE week of sitting, and it runs like $&@_

Its freakin corn syrup for cryin out loud. What idiot would want to feed a combustion engine corn syrup.

Stupid hippies and the EPA....grrrrrr

Technically, ethanol is not corn syrup. It's commonly made from corn due to ADM lobbying efforts to get subsidies, but can be made from many other products (usually cheaper and easier than corn). Pure or high percentage ethanol would have the effects you listed (except "burnishing valves, I don't understand that one) if attempts were made to run it in an engine not designed for it, of course. Likewise, running gasoline in an engine designed to run only on ethanol would result in severe damage to fuel systems and internal parts. Guess what? Running diesel in a motor not designed for it will cause damage, as would running other fuels in a motor designed for diesel.

The drift of what I'm saying, in case it's not obvious, is that engines have to be designed for their expected fuels, and vice versa, fuel has to be designed for its engine. The two go together hand in hand. Once that basic fact is realized it's easy to see that there are no inherent "better" or "worse" fuels, just different fuels and engine designs.

And the "hippies and EPA" rant is just that, a rant that has no real meaning, borne out of the anti-environmentalist movement. Hating ethanol because it's associated with environmentalists is, well, strange. Hating it because it represents a multibillion dollar subsidy program designed to make just one corporation and its CEOs wealthier, namely Archer Daniels Midland, makes more sense.

In and of itself ethanol is a perfectly viable transportation fuel, as is diesel, gasoline (in all the variations it's been made in over the last 100 years), kerosene, etc. All fuels have advantages and disadvantages, in engineering, environmental, and sociological terms. Making a choice based on rational thought and a full understanding of all the implications is better than ranting IMHO.

[Sailariel]

I have been following this Ethanol debate for quite some time because I am involved in Marine Interests--a member of our Harbour Committee. The E-10 really wreaks havoc on 2 Cycle Engines. Remedy: Use Marine Sta-Bil (The Blue stuff) all the time. That applies to Chain Saws, Weed Whackers, Leaf Blowers, and so on. For us Ninja owners--why not do the same thing? Put Sta-Bil in everytime you fill up and add the appropriate amount. Full Tank:3/4oz. I have been doing that for two years, still get great milage, and have had Zero fuel related problems. I have a 4oz leakproof plastic bottle that I fill with Sta-Bil Blue and keep under the seat. The tank gets the appropriate squirt at each fillup. It is a cheap way to keep safe. Has worked for my Ninjette for two years.

[Boom King]

Based on what I've read, my understanding is that fuel mixed with ethanol creates a hygroscopic mixture meaning it likes to absorb water from the air. If you let the fuel sit long enough, it continues to collect all that moisture and eventually the gas and water separate. Your gas will float to the top with the water sitting at the bottom. If you don't treat it with a good fuel stabilizer, that water will mix in with the dirt and deposits in your gas and tank and this where you get the gum and varnish formation. When you start your engine after letting it sit for a while, all that gum formation will move through your lines and clog them up.

A good stabilizer will not be able to prevent phase separation but only effects the cleanliness of the water after separation, meaning it helps prevent the water and dirt from binding with each other and forming all that gunk. If you use your bike regularly, E10 fuel should be fine but if you ever let your bike sit for a week or more, definitely drop in some good stabilizer in your tank during a fill up.

[coondog]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Running E100 would be kinda cool, but not if its going to hurt the bike.

I'm still looking for a good E0 supplier. Currently I have 2 definite sources, Marine fuel and avgas. The only avgas that is acceptable is called MoGas and there are not very many airports in Florida that sell it. The standard avgas is 100LL (100 octane leaded) which would likely either not run or damage the bike or both.

The third potential source is from a gas wholesaler who sells off-road gas. Around here there are several that sell off road diesel, but I don't know of any that sell off road gas. There just aren't that many people using gasoline powered tractors and heavy equipment.

So far, I have not had any problems with my Ninja, but I am reading a lot of "It was running and then it quit" posts on the web that have me concerned. Especially when they ultimately track the problem back to the fuel system.

In the tropics you WANT to run lean, so if yout carbs haven't been adjusted then the E10 may be doing it for you (just the end result however). Ethanol is BAD for motorcycles, besides stabil, which I just now heard of, all I've been told by my mechanic is to start using chevron fuel due to their "techron" additive having some sort of negating process for ethanol. So I switched from Shell to Chevron. Happy Trails Bro.

[Racer x]

I spend all spring rebuilding carbs that sat with gas in them over winter. That stuff is poison

[TenaciousD]

I use this stuff in my motorcycle regularly. It stabilizes the fuel for short term storage and it keeps the ethanol from absorbing water and separating from the fuel. Or so they say. For long term storage you still want something like Sta-bil.

[Racer x]

The best stuff to use is Sta-bil marine formula. But for long term storage .More that a month or two I just drain the tank and the carbs . It is easy to do and will definitely work.

[Archerzz]

The guy I bought my bike from had sta-bil in the tank and said that when I start running regular gas again I will notice an increase in power and the fuel stabilizers cut down on HP, is this true? I was only going to use it in my tank when I put the bike away for the winter or I go on extended trips.

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by Archerzz

The guy I bought my bike from had sta-bil in the tank and said that when I start running regular gas again I will notice an increase in power and the fuel stabilizers cut down on HP, is this true? I was only going to use it in my tank when I put the bike away for the winter or I go on extended trips.

Stabil isn't gasoline, and your engine is designed to run on gasoline, so the more non-gasoline products you mix with your gasoline the worse the engine will run.

[coondog]

Follow Racer-X advice and use marine sta-bil for storage, ride after you add to FULL tank so it gets in carbs and line. Negating ethanol is something we should all share about and back it up in real world and R&D of our own. I'm using Chevron with Techron on someones word (mechanic or not) and I'm looking into it anyway. Luck, keep in touch on subject matter bro.

[clintalmighty]

what about with FI bikes?

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by clintalmighty

what about with FI bikes?

I'm just guessing here, but its probably the same with FI cars. The gas tanks are pressurized and there is a high pressure fuel pump in the system. As such, the alcohol can't really suck up water from the air. The only thing you have to worry about on FI bikes would be decomposing rubber parts.

In a Ninja, the tank is vented to the atmosphere and the alcohol can suck up water from the humidity in the air. The only thing that makes the gas flow is gravity which is less than 1 psi. Considering the how small the passages are in a carb, it doesn't take much of a blockage to stop up a 1 psi gas flow.

[kkim]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

I'm just guessing here, but its probably the same with FI cars. The gas tanks are pressurized and there is a high pressure fuel pump in the system. As such, the alcohol can't really suck up water from the air. The only thing you have to worry about on FI bikes would be decomposing rubber parts.

In a Ninja, the tank is vented to the atmosphere and the alcohol can suck up water from the humidity in the air. The only thing that makes the gas flow is gravity which is less than 1 psi. Considering the how small the passages are in a carb, it doesn't take much of a blockage to stop up a 1 psi gas flow.

yep, it's the venting to atmosphere that really screws up the gas. moisture is allowed in through the vent and forms with the alcohol to form a sludgy material in the tank and carbs.

The injected motors are way better in this respect, but clogged injectors are not unheard of, either. Moisture can enter the fuel system on them from condensation on the inside of the tanks, no matter how "sealed" they design the systems. The pressurizing of the fuel system does help to minimize problems, though.