Emergency stopping

[andre430]

So I approach a stop sign at a four way stop and I slow down. It is my turn to go and a car I see from about 300 feet decides to not stop at their sign. They did not even stop and roll. Just a clear show of weckless driving. I was able to stop hard just as they pasted their stop sign. I followed the car and felt like getting out to tell them how dangerous she drives and to please be more careful. Please be aware and be safe out there. I am sure gald I practiced my emergency stopping. I was able to stay cool during the situation. Trust no cars, even if the light is green for you or if it's your turn to go.

[Snake]

Great advice. We should all practice more emergency stops.

[JeffM]

In my opinion, the most important skill to master.

[Yoda]

Specially for when that rear tire locks up and starts fish tailing around.

Had one of those the other day with a cop right behind me. Lady whipped out of the left turn lane into main traffic and I locked it all up to keep from plowing into her passenger door and ended up fishtailing right over against the curb.

Thankfully once I was clear the cop lit her up. Tickets for wreckless driving, unsafe lane change, failure to use turn signals and expired registration.

[JMcDonald]

I did a few hundred practice stops from various speeds in my first week. I have dwindled some since then, but I try to do a few per week at least.

A friend of mine, having done no practicing except the MSF course, almost endo'd at low speed his 4th day of riding, Someone started pulling out as he was leaving a 4-way stop (with the right-of-way), and he panicked and grabbed a handful of front, lifting the rear. Luckily, he was going slow enough to not go over the front, but he was so panicked that he never let go of the front brake until he was rolling off the bike as it fell over.

Practice so it is second nature. I've had a few emergency stops, and never once panicked because I practiced often. It was no surprise to hear the tires chirping, or having the rear start to kick out, or whatever.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by JMcDonald

I did a few hundred practice stops from various speeds in my first week. I have dwindled some since then, but I try to do a few per week at least.

A friend of mine, having done no practicing except the MSF course, almost endo'd at low speed his 4th day of riding, Someone started pulling out as he was leaving a 4-way stop (with the right-of-way), and he panicked and grabbed a handful of front, lifting the rear. Luckily, he was going slow enough to not go over the front, but he was so panicked that he never let go of the front brake until he was rolling off the bike as it fell over.

Practice so it is second nature. I've had a few emergency stops, and never once panicked because I practiced often. It was no surprise to hear the tires chirping, or having the rear start to kick out, or whatever.

Good points here. It is important to practice your emergency stops so that you can become really good and safe at executing them and so that they become second nature.

Some of you have mentioned stopping so hard that the rear end lifts off the ground or that the rear locks and fishtails, neither of these options are really desirable in an emergency stop. What are some of the most important tips for being able to come to a safe and effective stop? Front brake only, rear brake only, grab a fistful, loose or tight on the bars??? What do you DO to be able to make a good emergency stop?

Misti

[bob706]

Originally Posted by JeffM

In my opinion, the most important skill to master.

+1

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by Misti

Good points here. It is important to practice your emergency stops so that you can become really good and safe at executing them and so that they become second nature.

Some of you have mentioned stopping so hard that the rear end lifts off the ground or that the rear locks and fishtails, neither of these options are really desirable in an emergency stop. What are some of the most important tips for being able to come to a safe and effective stop? Front brake only, rear brake only, grab a fistful, loose or tight on the bars??? What do you DO to be able to make a good emergency stop?

Misti

Tips: Keep eyes up, relaxed arms, squeeze the brake lever and pedal - no grabbing or stomping. Practice, practice, practice: Develope braking skills that work consistantly at the speeds you ride at.

Edit: Grip the tank with your knees.

[tjkamper]

Glad you were able to stop. Another word of advice to everyone... "No matter how upset you are, or how sure you think it will help, do not purposefully follow a car that you had an altercation with just to tell them off." It is a problem just waiting to happen.

[andre430]

Originally Posted by tjkamper

Glad you were able to stop. Another word of advice to everyone... "No matter how upset you are, or how sure you think it will help, do not purposefully follow a car that you had an altercation with just to tell them off." It is a problem just waiting to happen.

The bad part is the person who leaped past the stop sign lives just around the corner from me. So I did not intend to follow her/him. I was able to notice the path they took to get home. I am glad I did not exchange words while I was heated. But it's so frustrating when someone almost crashes into a motorcyclist who follows the laws of the rode. It's like no matter how hard you try to be safe, it only takes 1 time to make your life flash before your eyes. What a wake up call. I even contemplated riding after that. Thanks to all of you who took the time to read my experience. Thanks for all the advice.

[JMcDonald]

It is very rare that my rear tire will left before the front tire locks. I don't desire to lock the rear, but I have never been able to do an emergency stop without doing it. Front-brake-only is probably safest overall on a sportbike like this because you get probably 80-90% of your braking done with the front, and you don't run the risk of locking the rear and low-siding when you otherwise would have made it just fine.

But, on the other hand, it bothers me to not be using the full potential of both tires (even if the rear can only add maybe 10% to the stopping force), and I have never been nervous with the rear skidding. Also, modulating the front brake can be used to keep a skidding rear from stepping out too far, but this was developed over 10 years of dirtbiking.

[TenaciousD]

In a true emergency stop the ~10% that the rear brake provides could be really important. It could make the difference between plowing into the side of that RV that just pulled out in front of you or not. If the rear tire locks and the bike gets sideways and then you release the rear brake you're going to highside when the rear tire regains traction. So most recommendations I've heard is to just keep it locked and ride it out to a stop. Again, this is an EMERGENCY stop so there's no point in trying to recover and ride on. Just get it stopped. Best case scenario is to use both brakes to their fullest extent without locking either wheel or lifting the rear tire, so practice practice practice. This is why more bikes are coming with ABS these days.

[JMcDonald]

Originally Posted by TenaciousD

In a true emergency stop the ~10% that the rear brake provides could be really important. It could make the difference between plowing into the side of that RV that just pulled out in front of you or not. If the rear tire locks and the bike gets sideways and then you release the rear brake you're going to highside when the rear tire regains traction. So most recommendations I've heard is to just keep it locked and ride it out to a stop. Again, this is an EMERGENCY stop so there's no point in trying to recover and ride on. Just get it stopped. Best case scenario is to use both brakes to their fullest extent without locking either wheel or lifting the rear tire, so practice practice practice. This is why more bikes are coming with ABS these days.

Yeah. The thing is, because so little weight is on the rear, it is very difficult to actually feel when it is locked or not. I tried and tried and tried to apply lighter and lighter pedal pressures, but everytime I would do a stop I would still go back and see a very faint skid-mark where the rear tire was locked.

And yeah, the best thing to do is to keep the rear locked, though at lower speeds and small degrees of step-out I have never had any problem releasing the brake. In wet conditions, especially on asphault, however, I would be wearing of riding it out. The crowned shape of some roads combined with the slick conditions will kick the rear out in a hurry, and there is often not enough friction to get it back in line on its own, so be wary of trying to ride out the skid in those conditions.



But, it is all about just weighing the risks. On the one hand, using only the front brake there is a chance you will have needed that extra 15 feet of stopping distance the rear could have provided to not hit the stopped car in front of you.

On the other hand, with there being such a liklihood of locking the rear, this loss of control of the rear end could very easily result in a crash when you otherwise could have been fine. Say you come over a hill and there is stopped traffic just ahead. With a locked rear, you now cannot steer, which means you couldn't just steer over to the shoulder if stopping in time wasn't possible (and / or you didn't want to be crushed from behind). If you try this with a locked rear, not only will you not go where you want to, but you will now be even more sideways and that much closer to going down. And, if you try to let go of the rear at a 60mph skid and it has stepped out 6" from the centerline, that also will likely not end well either.

On top of that, the front brake is more intuitive. With the rear brake, when the tire skids and starts stepping out, the instinctive thing to do is to let go of the button you just pressed which is causing problems, which happens to be exactly the worst thing you can do in extreme cases. With the front brake, however, when bad things start to happen from squeezing too hard (front chirping / locking), the instinctive thing to do is to let go, which is exactly the best thing to do.

So, it is just something to consider. I use both brakes, and will typically just accept a locked rear and then apply front brake force as necessary for the stop.

[SVBS]

learned how to stoppie the other day, when it landed, it landed slop side, almost drop her, lol now I can emergency stop

[JMcDonald]

I have been working on downshifting through the gears while hard front braking. This both does a lot of the job of the rear brake (with so much weight on the front, even doing this is it easy to get the rear wheel to start hopping), AND keeps me in the right gear for accelerating quickly if I need to. I am actually getting more consistent at doing this than in using the rear brake without locking it. I haven't done it nearly enough to make it a subconscious action, but I am considering focusing on trying. Thoughts?

[Alex]

If it's truly an emergency stop situation, spending an iota of energy trying to downshift smoothly at the same time has your focus where it shouldn't be.

[JMcDonald]

Compared to the MSF instruction of simultaneous downshifting (with the clutch in), it is actually (to me) less distracting than trying to count down gears in my head while calculating their speed ranges and making sure I end up in the correct one when it is time to accelerate again. Actually downshifting and hearing / feeling the engine is a more automatic way (again to me) of making sure I am downshifting at an appropriate pace for my rate of deceleration (not going down too many gears if I don't need to come to a complete stop, while still remembering to downshift at all--between which I cannot find a balance).

At the moment I can indeed probably stop more safely and consistently just using the brakes, but I am 100% sure I wouldn't downshift. So, say I am going 80mph in 5th and suddenly need to slow to 10mph coming over a hill. If I don't downshift I am going to be lugging along at 1100 rpm trying to get to the shoulder before being rear-ended, wasting precious moments either working the hell out of the clutch or trying to fiddle down through the gears before getting creamed by following traffic. If I end up in 1st through downshifting (with the drivetrain already being fully engaged), I would be able to immediately start forward to get out of the danger area.

Now, consider if I only have to slow to 40mph before making a swirve to avoid the obstacle and accelerate out of the way before getting hit from behind. If I don't downshift, 5th gear (especially mine) would not be good for this. If I try to downshift by just clicking through the gears with the clutch in and up going down too many gears, that would cause just as many problems The rear wheel might lock when re-engaging the clutch because the engine is near (or past, on a stock-geared bike) redline, which would be bad if trying to swirve. Also, instead of accelerating ahead, the rider will actually continue slowing (especially on a stock-geared bike). The rider might again have to waste precious moments trying to upshift to a more appropriate gear. All of this would be avoided because the downshifting for me is a more automatic process, and will pretty much always leave me in the correct gear for when I need to get going again.


Now, I have never actually done this in a true emergency stop, and I don't think it would be my first reaction if someone pulled out in front of me on my commute this morning. But, I do think it is a reasonable option if it could be done with enough consistency.

[Havok]

I have got lazy with using the back brake so I focus more on using it. On my commute I do every thing I can to avoid this stuff though, if I am at a stop sign and a car is rolling up I wait till try are stopped to go my turn or not. Green lights I spend looking at the right side then left as I approch them doing everything I can to avoid having to stop. When I do have to quick stop I don't worry about gears or clutch it is all brakes. I slide my ass back some get on the front brake then ease in on back. When I do happen to lock the back up I ride it out, I would rather low side the bike from a fish tail then high side and go over the bars to my doom. For quick stops I'll cycle down the gears but an emergency it's just too much wasted time.

[Alex]

Hi J - (oklahoma J, not LA J. :-))

Neither of those examples sound like emergency stops to me, they sound like brisk slowing. And being in the right gear when you want to speed back up has it's perks, but it only takes a few tenths at the end of the process to get down a few gears as necessary when you need.

Emergency stopping is balls out, 70+ mph to nada in 50ish yards, in under 2 - 3 seconds. It can be done with full concentration on the brakes (primarily/almost exclusively the front), but balancing the front and rear with the right amount of clutch work & blipping to manage the rear traction takes a portion of focus, that will invariably add length to the stop.

[JMcDonald]

Yeah I was thinking about that on the way home, and you are exactly right .

[backinthesaddleagain]

On non-ABS bikes I grab a good amount of both brakes and move my weight rearward to offset the forward weight transfer. Bike straight up of course. On the 600 w/ABS I just grab front and rear and let the electronics do their thing. Actually on the CBR if I don't hit the rear the ABS will still apply if it needs it. Hope it doesn't make me lazy though.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by JMcDonald

It is very rare that my rear tire will left before the front tire locks. I don't desire to lock the rear, but I have never been able to do an emergency stop without doing it. Front-brake-only is probably safest overall on a sportbike like this because you get probably 80-90% of your braking done with the front, and you don't run the risk of locking the rear and low-siding when you otherwise would have made it just fine.

But, on the other hand, it bothers me to not be using the full potential of both tires (even if the rear can only add maybe 10% to the stopping force), and I have never been nervous with the rear skidding. Also, modulating the front brake can be used to keep a skidding rear from stepping out too far, but this was developed over 10 years of dirtbiking.

On most sportbikes you can manage 100% of the braking with the front only. I never use the rear brake for emergency stops for the exact reason that you described above. It is really easy to lock up the rear and that can cause a lot more problems.

We have a brake rig bike at the California Superbike School which has outriggers so that it is very difficult to crash and we coach our students through emergency braking. We teach using the front brake only and don't do any downshifting. in an emergency stop there is just no time to be worried about shifting, you grab the brakes as fast and as hard as you can, squeeze them progressively and smoothly and stop as quickly as possible. This doesn't mean that you are jerky or hectic with the motions, just that it all gets done FAST. We coach our students to the point of locking up the front brake, 1st of all so they understand how much brake force it takes to lock up the front and second so that they learn what to do if they do lock up the front brake.

We also coach military schools where the guys ride their own bikes and we measure the stopping distances of the riders. All of them (on sportbikes) were able to cut their stopping distances when they went to front brake only. Even some cruiser riders (on bikes that have good front brakes) were able to get better stopping power with front only.

That being said, there are some things to keep in mind when practicing and learning emergency stops. 1st of all as someone mentioned you want to keep your arms nice and relaxed and that can be accomplished by squeezing the tank with your knees to keep your body from sliding forward.

Also, as I mentioned you want to get maximum braking as quickly as possible and sometimes that means getting to the point of locking up the front, but the biggest mistakes people make are letting go of the brakes when they feel the front lock (which means that they don't come to a stop) or maintaining the same pressure on the lever when the front locks so that it continues to lock (they skid and or crash) or they stoppie and go up and over the bars.

So, what do you do if the front locks up?

Misti

[backinthesaddleagain]

move my weight back and "feather" the FB lever

[Misti]

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

move my weight back and "feather" the FB lever

It would probably be hard to move the weight back in the middle of a front brake lock up. Ideally you would be squeezing the tank with your knees already so that your weight didn't slam forward into the tank, but yes, if you feel the front tire locking up you should release the lever slightly (so that it doesn't remain locked).

What a LOT of riders do though is let go of the lever completely when the front locks up. They panic and release it which often results in them still hitting the thing they were trying to avoid. So, the key is to release it a little bit so that it stops the front from being locked but still allows you to come to a safe and quick stop.

Our brake rig exercise is designed to let our students know what it feels like when the front locks up and to give them the opportunity to practice getting it to the point of lock up and releasing it just enough so they can still stop quickly but that they don't skid and possibly crash.

Another common mistake riders make is to tense and straighten their arms. What kinds of problems could this cause when trying to emergency brake?

Misti

[austexjg]

That would shift all your weight to the front (loading up the front suspesion), and make it difficult to add any steering input.

[Cab305]

A riding boot to the rear view mirror is a good reminder.

[JMcDonald]

Having ridgid arms just means if your body bouces or whatever you are more likely to have unforavle inputs on the bars.

Btw on 98% of surfaces around here my front will start locking before the rear will lift. That does tell me there is some additional stopping force that can be had through the (inevitably locked) rear. But I have to weigh thaat against the reduction of control a locked rear causes.

The only time the rear will consistently lift is on clean, rough concrete which is only found in the occasional older neighborhood here. Otherwise, it takes a lot of aggresive riding on warm pavement to get my tires sticky enough to lift the rear on other surfaces :P .
Posted via Mobile Device

[Alex]

Originally Posted by JMcDonald

Btw on 98% of surfaces around here my front will start locking before the rear will lift.

This is surprising to me. I can get the rear to lift on the vast majority of surfaces here, and I don't know what would make them vastly different from other riding environments.

Most front brakes can be made to lock pretty easily, but that's more often due to less than great technique while pulling the lever itself. If a rider grabs the lever too forcefully and stops the front wheel before that weight transfer has begun to significantly press the front end of the bike into the ground, front wheel lockup / skidding can occur. In that same exact scenario, pulling the lever firmly (but not harshly), can use that increasing weight transfer to progressively provide more and more braking to the front, and pretty quickly popping the rear up in the air if the rider wishes.

[rceezy]

Thank you for the reminder. I'll need to brush up on these skills myself.

[JMcDonald]

Oh yes, when I first read that my bike should consistently lift the rear, I was concerned. I tried all over town over several days trying to get the rear to lift. Turns out my technique was not the problem, as no matter how softly I do it on most surfaces the front will start chirping before the rear really even gets close to lifting. On those aforementioned rare surfaces (clean, rough concrete), I could jab on the front almost as roughly as I wanted and still get the rear to lift everytime.

I even practiced several times today and found exactly the same thing.

The only thing I can think of is my tires. I am going to BT016s in the spring (from my current Avon Roadriders), so maybe that will make the difference.

But, I can definitely tell the difference in stopping distance when adding even the locked rear. It isn't huge or anything, but if it makes the difference between 85 and 100 feet, I have a hard time giving that up when I've never personally had any real problems associated with locking the rear before.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by JMcDonald

The only thing I can think of is my tires. I am going to BT016s in the spring (from my current Avon Roadriders), so maybe that will make the difference.

I think they may very well be a factor. I haven't ridden on them, but they are marketed as long-wearing touring tires, and Vex swears they were the worst tires he's ever had the displeasure of riding on. With BT-016's, Sport Demons, or other relatively sticky tires on the front, things might be noticeably different.

[JMcDonald]

Yeah I actually recently read his thread talking about them, heh. Maybe when I make the switch I will be able to enjoy all this front-only braking everyone seems to love .

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Alex

This is surprising to me. I can get the rear to lift on the vast majority of surfaces here, and I don't know what would make them vastly different from other riding environments.

Most front brakes can be made to lock pretty easily, but that's more often due to less than great technique while pulling the lever itself. If a rider grabs the lever too forcefully and stops the front wheel before that weight transfer has begun to significantly press the front end of the bike into the ground, front wheel lockup / skidding can occur. In that same exact scenario, pulling the lever firmly (but not harshly), can use that increasing weight transfer to progressively provide more and more braking to the front, and pretty quickly popping the rear up in the air if the rider wishes.

Good points here. A lot of times it is due to the way the rider is grabbing at the lever, whether forcefully or jerky it can cause the front to lock quickly. If a rider allows his weight to slide forward into the tank while jabbing on the front brake it can easily lift the rear. As mentioned in my previous posts the ideal situation is hard and fast stopping with smooth application of the lever.

Originally Posted by JMcDonald

Oh yes, when I first read that my bike should consistently lift the rear, I was concerned. I tried all over town over several days trying to get the rear to lift. Turns out my technique was not the problem, as no matter how softly I do it on most surfaces the front will start chirping before the rear really even gets close to lifting. On those aforementioned rare surfaces (clean, rough concrete), I could jab on the front almost as roughly as I wanted and still get the rear to lift everytime.

I even practiced several times today and found exactly the same thing.

The only thing I can think of is my tires. I am going to BT016s in the spring (from my current Avon Roadriders), so maybe that will make the difference.

But, I can definitely tell the difference in stopping distance when adding even the locked rear. It isn't huge or anything, but if it makes the difference between 85 and 100 feet, I have a hard time giving that up when I've never personally had any real problems associated with locking the rear before.

Stick with both brakes if that works better for you and you can get more stopping distance. Some people are able to stop better with both brakes, some are just too heavy footed to avoid not locking the rear and do better with front only. Tires will make a difference as will tire pressure to whether or not the front skids and locks easily and that should be taken into consideration when riding. Good on ya for continuing to practice such an important skill!

Misti