Group Buy: EFI (Fuel Injection) Conversion Kit

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

The Ninja 250 pregen alternator puts out about 10 amps at idle (120W) and 15 amps at speed (180W). The headlight draws 60W. Then 45W for the EFI. The brake and tail light are 30W together. That means that at idle, the charging system is running a 15W deficit. This is a typical situation at a traffic light and more than a few minutes like that and the battery will drain to the point it wont be able to run or crank.

But since most of the time the bike will be running at speed (with 45W to spare), it should even out as long as there aren't too many other things plugged in such as heated gloves (30W), etc..

Regarding the check engine light, exactly what does it signify? That is, what's broken when its lit? Does it flash with a code or something?

n4mwd, you are talking about the worst case for 15W deficit, with all lights on and idle.

MIL light, or "check engine light", is for our EFI parts diagnostics only. If any of the sensors, like TPS, MAP, IAT, ECT, O2s, is malfunctioning, it will be on. Obviously if you forget to plug in a sensor it will tell you.
No it does not flash, only ON, you'd have to plug in your laptop and read the DTC code. With everybody having a laptop nowadays, flashing code is not worhwhile, I think.

[Palero]

Originally Posted by Ninja_Moose

Got something in the mail today

Sweet! I see the cool new tank petcock replacement!

The NewGen and PreGen petcocks are interchangeable, correct?

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by Palero

Sweet! I see the cool new tank petcock replacement!

The NewGen and PreGen petcocks are interchangeable, correct?

yep just need a newgen gasket

[n4mwd]

The ecotrons fuel tap is a big improvement over previous incarnations of the kit. In past versions you had to drill holes in the tank. However, the new fuel tap is not a petcock. That is where it is lacking. With the OEM petcock, to remove the tank, you just unbolt and disconnect it - no worries about gas leaking out.

With the new fuel tap, to remove the tank you have to drain the tank (by making a flammable mess). There is no way to cut the fuel off. I plan to add inline fuel cutoff valves (it takes two).

Hopefully, future versions of the petcock will incorporate valves so that ON, OFF, and RESERVE will work. That is, when ON, fuel enters the higher tube and is returned to the lower tube. When set to RESERVE, fuel enters the lower tube and is returned to the higher tube. It would also be great if it had a switch to turn off the fuel pump when the valve is OFF and came with its own screens and gaskets.

[choneofakind]

Reserve wouldn't be the same though. With the carbs, the bike sputters and dies a little, but still gives you a solid 30-40 seconds of cruising before you realize *derp! I need to switch to reserve.

The EFI would sputter and die much more quickly if I had to guess...
Maybe @greg737 can help on this subject a little bit.

This is when having the Euro-spec 250R would be nice. It has a fuel light that lights up when there is only a certain amount of fuel left, acting like a reserve tank. Fuel light = need gas.


Although, I guess if the "petcock" had a reserve, the bike would just die, and you could switch it over, and then restart the bike? It would just be annoying having to restart the bike every time you hit the reserve

[n4mwd]

The newgens have a fuel gauge on them. I'm not sure if they have a low fuel light. I don't think the kit will impact them in that regard.

If the petcock had a wire probe into the gas, it could measure a low condition by reading the resistance and capacitance of the wire and then light an indicator on the dash. But a petcock with a dual valve in it would work too and be simpler.

[n4mwd]

Matt, The fuel pressure regulator and the fuel pump don't look like they were designed for hose clamps. That is, they don't have hose barbs. Both look like they were designed for O-ring fitting connectors. This is especially true of the regulator inlet.

Considering the pressure (3 bar), I am concerned that the barbless hose attachments may vibrate off over time and cause fuel to spill everywhere. Do you know what the original connectors for these look like so we can fabricate them?



Also, regarding the throttle body, there are bypass screw valves under each TB. (Idle passages?) I was wondering if these were being used or if they should be closed off. Mine has an idle screw on the end so it seems like these screw valves are extra.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

The newgens have a fuel gauge on them. I'm not sure if they have a low fuel light. I don't think the kit will impact them in that regard.

If the petcock had a wire probe into the gas, it could measure a low condition by reading the resistance and capacitance of the wire and then light an indicator on the dash. But a petcock with a dual valve in it would work too and be simpler.

The petcock on a new gen cant be accessed easily while rolling, but i always liked having a reserve capacity.
One of the ideas i had for the choke lever was to use it as a reserve switch.

Ill weld a lever on to an old petcock and see if it works.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by lgk

The petcock on a new gen cant be accessed easily while rolling, but i always liked having a reserve capacity.
One of the ideas i had for the choke lever was to use it as a reserve switch.

Ill weld a lever on to an old petcock and see if it works.

I'm just going to start carrying a quart of gas in my trunk. Reserve capacity is better, but it doesn't look like we get to keep that with the conversion. Also, I want to save the choke cable for the economy/sport switch.

[Palero]

I see that there are 3 possible installation types for this kit:
Pregen 88-94,
Pregen 95-07,
and
Newgen 08-12

The 95 and up models can be ordered with a specific harness for those model years.
Is an 88-94 harness available for this kit yet?

[flurbadurba]

i wanna get this done but i've got pod filters. has anybody been able to do efi w/ the k&n r0990 pods?

[Ninja_Moose]

Originally Posted by flurbadurba

i wanna get this done but i've got pod filters. has anybody been able to do efi w/ the k&n r0990 pods?

I am currently setting up my 09 250r with pods and full AreaP for EFI.

[flurbadurba]

Originally Posted by Ninja_Moose

I am currently setting up my 09 250r with pods and full AreaP for EFI.

nice. i'd hate to undo my pods but i'll order mine as soon as i know it can be done and how to do it. thanks.

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by flurbadurba

i wanna get this done but i've got pod filters. has anybody been able to do efi w/ the k&n r0990 pods?

I don't see why pods would be any hardship. If anything it makes installation simpler as you are not limited by the stock airbox dimensions.

My install of the kit, I actually had to cut the supplied intake boots to ~35mm to fit the stock airbox (2007).

I have a set of r0990 pods on order.

BTW. My kit is installed and working without the o2 sensors. I have the bungs @greg737 mentioned on order from Amazon.

I just have a few things to clean up (fuel plumbing, throttle cable).

[flurbadurba]

ok i'm liking the sound of things. i'll look for installation guides to see how difficult it would be but i'm thinking i'll be ordering mine soon. thanks again.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by flynjay

BTW. My kit is installed and working without the o2 sensors. I have the bungs @greg737 mentioned on order from Amazon.

I just have a few things to clean up (fuel plumbing, throttle cable).

Link to the amazon O2 bungs please!

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Matt, The fuel pressure regulator and the fuel pump don't look like they were designed for hose clamps. That is, they don't have hose barbs. Both look like they were designed for O-ring fitting connectors. This is especially true of the regulator inlet.

Considering the pressure (3 bar), I am concerned that the barbless hose attachments may vibrate off over time and cause fuel to spill everywhere. Do you know what the original connectors for these look like so we can fabricate them?

Also, regarding the throttle body, there are bypass screw valves under each TB. (Idle passages?) I was wondering if these were being used or if they should be closed off. Mine has an idle screw on the end so it seems like these screw valves are extra.

Fuel pressure regulators in the future will have barbed tubes.
Fuel pumps not likely. The surface of fuel pump tubes are rough and with a tight hose clamp, the fuel lines will stick to there and not be "vibrated off". Proved by many miles on the road already.

If you still feel uncomfortable about this, you can buy a fuel pump that has the barbs (make sure it has 25L/h plus flow rate, 3bar output pressure and 2A current draw). "Fabricate your own pump" is certainly not cost effective.

The idle screws are pre-adjusted, please read the earlier posts of mine. Do NOT try to change them, or you end up unbalanced cylinders.

There are small things like barbed hoses to be improved. It's matter of how much you want to pay for that.

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by flurbadurba

i wanna get this done but i've got pod filters. has anybody been able to do efi w/ the k&n r0990 pods?

Pod filters should not be a problem. It will likely give more power (more air flow) after some self-tuning or manual tuning.

The stock air box has those "ear" shape plastics pieces to hold the stock carbs. They are not good for air flow dynamics, with Ecotrons' rubber hose adaptors squeezed in there. The whole air flow channels could be narrowed down. We actually cut those "ears" out for throttle body installations. It is recommended to do so for your guys.

If you use pod filters, then you don't have that problem.

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by setasai

Link to the amazon O2 bungs please!

Here is the link. These are mild steel which is not a problem for me since I plan on painting them. There are stainless ones but they were out of stock when I ordered.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...00_i00_details

[Palero]

Is there a harness for 88 to 94 Ninjas? I know we have different wiring compared to 95 and up. I had to swap pins when I installed 07 hand controls.

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by Palero

Is there a harness for 88 to 94 Ninjas? I know we have different wiring compared to 95 and up. I had to swap pins when I installed 07 hand controls.

so far no engine codes it took me like 5 mins to repin the harness just basing it off of color code and works. i got the bike to idle for a bit but having some fuel problems i think

[Palero]

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

so far no engine codes it took me like 5 mins to repin the harness just basing it off of color code and works. i got the bike to idle for a bit but having some fuel problems i think

Oh no. What kind of fueling issues are you getting on your early newgen?

BtW, how many pins did you have to swap? I think I did 5 to swap my hand controls to 07 controls.

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by Palero

Oh no. What kind of fueling issues are you getting on your early newgen?

BtW, how many pins did you have to swap? I think I did 5 to swap my hand controls to 07 controls.

think it was only 5 pins. real easy. and idk if it fuel it starts and idles but Matt is helping me out with it. so will keep posted

[n4mwd]

I've decided to just use the ecotron nuts for bungs. The sensor will stick into the pipe about 3/8", however I have been talking to other people and they believe that if not enough of the sensor is in the gas stream, it wont get hot enough to operate and will have to use its internal heater - thus possibly shortening its life. Another reason to use the nuts for bungs is that if you ever need to remove the sensor and it puts up a fight, you have another place to put a wrench on to prevent twisting the bung off.

So 3/8" is a pretty good compromise.

I'm still not very crazy about how heavy it is.

BTW, I said earlier that it was 16mm threads. That was a mistake. Its 18mm x 1.50 threads.

[justinswidebody]

So anyone driving there's around? I just finished tonight and took it for a test spin. I already have the oxygen sensors and everything in. I must say the ecu does a lot of learning. At first on my test drive I made a turn and realized the motor had shut off. So I stoped and it took about 5 min before it would crank. After that I drive around for about 20 min stop and go , and the ecu got a lot better. So far I like the kit. Took a while to install but if I where to do it again I could do it in a quarter of the time.

[Palero]

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

think it was only 5 pins. real easy. and idk if it fuel it starts and idles but Matt is helping me out with it. so will keep posted

Thanks for the reply. The reason I'm asking is because El250 said he had to wire up a resistor when moving from an 1988-1994 igniter to a 1994-2007 style igniter, but it looks like that resistor is for the anti-hotwire feature. http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...077#post425077

[el250]

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

so far no engine codes it took me like 5 mins to repin the harness just basing it off of color code and works. i got the bike to idle for a bit but having some fuel problems i think

Is the pinning like this:




ecotrons wiring -> main wiring harness color 1988-1994 (1995-2007)

keysw +12vdc:
pink -> red (brown/black)

coil 1:
gray -> black

coil 2:
brown -> green

pickups:
green -> black/white
orange -> yellow

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by el250

Is the pinning like this:




ecotrons wiring -> main wiring harness color 1988-1994 (1995-2007)

keysw +12vdc:
pink -> red (brown/black)

coil 1:
gray -> black

coil 2:
brown -> green

pickups:
green -> black/white
orange -> yellow

yeah thats how i pinned it, but what does the resistor do? i never saw that part. let me know when u can might solve my problem

[el250]

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

yeah thats how i pinned it, but what does the resistor do? i never saw that part. let me know when u can might solve my problem

I don't think the ecotrons ECU cares about the safety switches and does not have anti-hotwire. So those wires are not used (Green/Blue and Gray) and no need for resistor for 1988-1994 bikes.

It even looks like the Black/Yellow ground wire isn't used from the igniter connector of the main wiring harness as the ECU gets its main ground through another wire?

[setasai]

How long exactly is the 650R throttle cables? I'm wondering if the Versys or ZX series throttle cables are long enough. The versys throttle cable has an adjuster nut just like the 250R carb throttle cables but I have no idea how long it is.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by setasai

How long exactly is the 650R throttle cables? I'm wondering if the Versys or ZX series throttle cables are long enough. The versys throttle cable has an adjuster nut just like the 250R carb throttle cables but I have no idea how long it is.

I have the 2009 650 cables here. These are rough measurements:

Accel - sheath = 32" cable = 35.5"
Decel - sheath = 30.5" cable = 36.5"

The ZX has their own thing and is incompatible with the Ninja. According to Ron Ayers, the versys has the same kind of cables as the 650 with no nut adjusters at the end.

[setasai]

Got it... Cool thanks for the measurements. I went ahead and bought some 650 cables off ebay as well. Hope it gets shipped soon. I'll probably get started early next week.

[n4mwd]

I'm having problems with the black rubber tubing. It looks like its 3/8" ID and the biggest thing in the kit is 5/16". Is anybody else having problems with it?

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by justinswidebody

So anyone driving there's around? I just finished tonight and took it for a test spin. I already have the oxygen sensors and everything in. I must say the ecu does a lot of learning. At first on my test drive I made a turn and realized the motor had shut off. So I stoped and it took about 5 min before it would crank. After that I drive around for about 20 min stop and go , and the ecu got a lot better. So far I like the kit. Took a while to install but if I where to do it again I could do it in a quarter of the time.

I just road mine around about a 5 mile loop through my neighborhood (in open loop mode since my o2 sensor bungs won't be here until next week). rpm above 4000 worked fine, definitely more torque and acceleration was noticeably more brisk.

Below 4000 it didn't really want to run. It would idle all day but the transition to > 4000 took some work. I'm sure open loop mode will fix that.

[Ninja_Moose]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

I'm having problems with the black rubber tubing. It looks like its 3/8" ID and the biggest thing in the kit is 5/16". Is anybody else having problems with it?

I am having a similar problem with the high pressure tubing, it only fits the injectors and the tee, everything else to too small.

[justinswidebody]

I just went to a auto parts place and bought 2' of 1/4 fuel line. It was like 4 dollars. I had better luck with that and no leaks. Mine right now has issues w popping when shifting gears and decelerating. Turns out the 2012 ninjas use different cables which caused tiny complications with my install. However I think I'm gonna order the 650 cables and put the injectors on top . Matts working with me trying to figure out the popping when shifting gears and decel. Sometimes decel is really smooth cause it cuts the fuel.

Flynjay,

My bike still runs a little ruff under 2500-3000 rpms. I'm gonna hook up my laptop today and see what's going on.

[n4mwd]

I'm going to try to get to Napa and get some of this stuff.

Its alcohol resistant 5/16" high pressure tubing. The only thing I'm not certain of is the outside diameter. It needs to be thin enough that it can fit on the fuel pump ports next to all the other stuff that is there.

Also, I'm going to get a package of the correct clamps. The ones in the kit are not the right kind for high pressure fuel.



On a 3/8" high pressure fuel line, there is about 5 lbs of force trying to pop the connections off - so they need to be tight fitting. Basically, if I can pull it off by yanking on it, then its too loose.

I'm going to use the clear blue 1/4" hose that came with the kit for the return line. Its low pressure and any clamp will work with that.

[justinswidebody]

I got those clamps from advances auto parts. That's what I used on mine. They were about 2.99 for 4 clamps.

[choneofakind]

@justinswidebody are you sure that popping is caused by the EFI system? I bet the EFI is going to run leaner than the carbs on decel. the Kleen system leans the exhaust further to try and burn off all unburnt fuel (from rich carbs) and it might be worth it to try the bike with/without the Kleen system to see if there's any difference.

[justinswidebody]

Hey guys ,

Just so everyone knows. Make sure you get the oxygen sensors inside the exhaust tubing enough. You do not want to be shallow. I double checked my work today and realized I measure wrong. So I cut my bungs off and rewelded them where the o2 sensor hits the middle of the airflow and its a night and day difference in driving. Much better now.

Justin