December 11th, 2011, 08:58 PM | #41 | |
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The O2 sensors are "WB" a.k.a. "wide-band". If they were NB (narrow-band) the Ecotrons kit wouldn't be capable of "self tuning". The O2 sensors shown on the Ecotrons page appear to be Bosch LSU4.2 5-wire, Wide-band O2 sensors which is the same sensor I used in my 2005 EX-250 project bike. |
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December 11th, 2011, 09:53 PM | #42 |
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Not sure yet. Got any suggestions? I had planned on doing some research on BARF as I wait for the parts to come in next month. Some have suggested that a welding shop would be better than an exhaust shop.
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December 11th, 2011, 11:06 PM | #43 | |
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December 12th, 2011, 01:03 AM | #44 | |
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http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showp...3&postcount=94 |
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December 12th, 2011, 11:56 AM | #45 |
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come visit me. Ill weld it for you
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December 12th, 2011, 01:56 PM | #46 |
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December 12th, 2011, 05:03 PM | #47 | |
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Edit to add: When I mentioned autotuning, I was assuming the desire to tune to stochiometric, 14.7:1. How my car does it, and my car is a 1980's model, is that it cycles the mixture rich to lean and back very quickly, more than once a second. As a result the O2 sensor voltage, and it's a 1-wire narrow band sensor, cycles between 200mV and 800mV, with 450-500mV being considered stochiometric. The ECM then adds and subtracts from a fuel trim table such that the average time spent on the rich and lean side of stochiometric is about the same. The voltage is not linear with mixture, that's correct, but it's fairly symmetrical around 14.7:1. So, in effect, my PCM is autotuning. There's no fundamental reason why this can't be done as it's basically math (averaging) and recording data within the ECM. There's a basic tune already programmed into the ECM, so in this case the autotuning is working over an existing fuel map, but that was done mainly for production consistency and cost as the software needed to start from scratch would be much more involved and expensive to implement (at that time, anyway). Now, typically one would like a slightly rich mixture at WOT. My car doesn't directly tune that regime since it can't measure mixture accurately very far from stochiometric. What it does do is to adjust the WOT fuel tables (BTW, WOT means Wide Open Throttle, for those that are wondering) proportionally to the cruise and idle fuel tables, under the assumption that whatever altered the fuel requirements at cruise also applies to other parts of the overall fuel map. That's why I stated that it would be difficult, and would not be as accurate. I still stand by that statement. If I had the programming skills I'd use a knock sensor to check for detonation and add fuel to the WOT tables until it stopped, with a threshold alarm of some percentage higher than what I might expect. As a side note, there are heated NB O2 sensors, I've got one in another car. That car is an early 80's product that I added long-tube headers to. With 26" primaries the new O2 sensor location was too far down the exhaust stream and wouldn't light off most of the time, leaving the car in open-loop configuration with terrible fuel economy. I discussed the issue with a GM engineer and he specified a part number for a heated sensor which I installed, wiring an auxiliary circuit to run the heaters. It was a four wire sensor (separate grounds for the sensor cell and heater). Worked great. Last futzed with by FrugalNinja250; December 13th, 2011 at 04:53 PM. |
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December 12th, 2011, 05:26 PM | #48 | |
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VROOOM vrooom >.> |
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December 12th, 2011, 05:27 PM | #49 | |
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Here's a example graph of the information you get from both a wide-band and a narrow-band. As you can see the narrow-band O2 sensor (blue lines) can only be relied upon to tell you when the air/fuel ratio hits "gasoline stoichiometric" (14.7/1), that's its only definitive datapoint, whereas the wide-band O2 sensor can sense and report any air/fuel ratio from crazy-rich to bone-dry-piston-burning-lean. So with a narrow-band O2 sensor how could you tune (or use an ECU's "auto-tune" function)? For example, on my 2005 FI project bike my idle air/fuel target ratio is 13.5/1, how could I use a narrow band to tune for that? Another example: for my "tip-in" zone for throttling out of idle at a stop I have targets of around 12.5/1 (which is gasoline's "best horsepower" air/fuel ratio). If my only definite datapoint from a narrow-band O2 sensor is 14.7/1 then how can I tune for 12.5/1? |
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December 13th, 2011, 07:24 AM | #50 |
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When do we think this is going to happen?
I prefer end of Dec., beginning of Jan. |
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December 13th, 2011, 07:39 AM | #51 |
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Probably not till mid to late Jan after the holidays in case people got cash for xmas and want to spend it on this. I'll discuss it with @Jiggles and come up with a fair and reasonable end date to close the group buy. We'd also like to get 5 people so that we can get the maximum discount.
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December 13th, 2011, 09:40 AM | #52 |
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are these ECU's programmable? can you get the ECU custom tuned for mods - full exhaust/filters etc? would suck if your stuck at a generic base map.
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December 13th, 2011, 09:45 AM | #53 |
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The ECU is self tuning, the map changes as the ECU "learns" your bike. You can adjust the major factors if your setup falls outside the ability for the system to self tune.
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December 13th, 2011, 11:06 AM | #54 |
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self tuning ECU? first time i've heard that an aftermarket ECU can do that. usually don't they just come pre-loaded with 1 or 2 maps. sounds pretty kewl if it works good. someone try it and let us know how accurate it is versus having it dyno tuned.
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December 13th, 2011, 11:34 AM | #55 | |
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But when you're talking about a full-up aftermarket ECU, the "self tuning" capability is probably the biggest selling point. I use a Microsquirt ECU (it's the smaller version of a Megasquirt ECU). Based on my experience with my own FI project I think the Ecotrons ECU is a very interesting piece of technology because it can do the "self tune" all by itself while most other aftermarket ECUs (like my Microsquirt) require you to hook up a laptop/netbook/tablet PC to the ECU so you can run a seperate software package that does the "self tune" in real-time and then sends the data back into the ECU (my Microsquirt depends on the TunerStudio software package for this function). And yes, "self tuning" works great. The ECU has a user programmable air/fuel ratio target table that it looks at while you ride. Many times a second the ECU uses the current engine RPM and Throttle Position and/or Manifold Absolute Pressure readings to look up a target air/fuel ratio which it compares to the current wide-band O2 sensor reading. If the two don't match the ECU makes an adjustment in the Volumetric Effeciency table which is the table that is the bike's "fueling map". As you ride for a while you'll be hitting the same datapoints over and over so the ECU gets a chance to re-check and tweak the fuel map even more. It's amazing that you can "ride" your motorcycle into a better state of tune, but that's exactly what you do with an aftermarket ECU. It's the ultimate "Italian tune-up". |
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December 13th, 2011, 12:04 PM | #56 | |
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December 13th, 2011, 01:23 PM | #57 |
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You got two kidneys?
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December 13th, 2011, 02:06 PM | #58 |
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Tempting, but I'm going to hang on to my carbs until they go bad. The cost is plenty and I'm not convinced that he has adequately solved the fuel return problem. But I'm thinking that at least 5 of you will let me know.
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December 13th, 2011, 02:11 PM | #59 |
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I'll trade you my Cali pregen tank
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December 13th, 2011, 02:24 PM | #60 | |
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A few posts ago I was trying to point out the fact that you don't have to run the excess pump output fuel back to the tank as long as you deal with the temperature build up of the return loop some other way. The easiest way to dump the excess heat (without going back to the fuel tank) is to run the return loop through a fuel cooler. I've got several thousand miles on my version of the old-gen "no-return" FI system and it works great. I used a Flexalite 4130 cooler which I cut down to 3 and 1/2 inches (of finned cooling surface) and I hung it under the K&N 0990 air filter. It's a very efficient fuel cooling setup with the K&N continuously pulling air across the cooling element. In summer my return fuel loop ran at a temperature just barely over ambient. If you can measure and solder, this is an easy setup to build. |
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December 13th, 2011, 03:46 PM | #61 |
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December 13th, 2011, 04:15 PM | #62 |
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December 13th, 2011, 04:40 PM | #63 | |
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December 13th, 2011, 04:47 PM | #64 |
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@greg737 Just wanted to thank you Greg for the wealth of information. I read up on FI but you're explanations and comparison with your own developed system really helped me.
I dont really have $500 laying around either. I dedicated this money as a new year/xmas gift to myself... It was between a new exhaust and EFI. You know which one I decided on.
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December 13th, 2011, 04:59 PM | #65 | |
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Tank-->line-->pump-->injector rail-->line-->cooler-->line-->Tee on fuel pump inlet line? So the fuel cycles continually between pump and cooler, with whatever the injectors take removed from the loop volume and replaced with fuel from the tank? I assume there's a checkvalve upstream of the Tee? |
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December 13th, 2011, 05:02 PM | #66 |
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December 13th, 2011, 05:14 PM | #67 |
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If I go FI, I'll probably want to either get a CA tank or machine a new petcock adapter where fuel can return through the petcock. The fuel cooler idea might not work that well down here when ambient temperatures hit 100F.
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December 13th, 2011, 05:46 PM | #68 |
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Nice..I'm keeping my eye out for a pre-gen black. Mine has a little rust build up and both fairing bolts were punctured.
Leaks have been fixed by jbwelding some studs into the holes and using acorn nuts. As for the tank, I will try removing the diaphram in the petcock. If that doesn't work, I will drill and install a fuel return tap. |
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December 13th, 2011, 06:33 PM | #69 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
Your fuel tank doesn't posses some magical property that cools the fuel, it's dependent upon: A. the volume of gasoline that's in the tank, and (to a greater degree) B. transfering the heat from the gasoline in the tank into the fuel tank wall and finally dumping it off into the atmosphere. So the overall effect of running a "return to tank" system vs. a "fuel cooler" system is exactly the same. The bottom line is that your lowest possible fuel temperature will be no lower than the ambient outside air temperature. Yes, I'll give you the fact that if you start off with a full tank of cold fuel it will take you longer to reach the point where the lowest possible fuel temperature is the ambient outside temperature, but over the course of a medium to long ride distance you will get there. That's not important anyway, though, because any engineer will tell you that you have to build your system to effectively deal with the upper limit it will regularly experience, not a "gift" situation like happening to have a tank full of cool fuel because the bike was in the garage. Eventually you're going to have the situation where you're riding your EX-250 on a really hot day with not a lot of fuel in the tank. That's when the "rubber meets the road". I don't know what temperature will cause gasoline to convert to vapor and "vapor lock" my FI system, but I know it's got to be well over 100 degrees (I mean way over). |
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December 13th, 2011, 06:58 PM | #70 | |
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It goes: Step 1. Fuel leaves the fuel tank through the petcock (just "on" and "off"), down a fuel line and into one branch of a three-way Tee. The second branch of the Tee recieves fuel coming back in from the return loop (more on that later) and the third branch of the tee takes that return fuel and new fuel from the tank to the bike's fuel pump. Call this combination "input fuel". Step 2. The fuel pump (Suzuki LT-R450 Quadracer) pressurizes this input fuel to about 50 psi and sends it down a line into the fuel pressure regulator (also a Suzuki LT-R450 Quadracer part). Step 2.a. A "bubble line" or you could call it a "vapor-relief" line also leaves the fuel pump. This line is hooked up to what used to be the vacuum port on the bike's petcock. (Side note: when you take out the petcock's vacuum diaphram the vacuum port turns into a useful fuel line). Step 3. The fuel pressure regulator reduces the line pressure to 42 psi and sends that pressure down the line to the throttlebody fuel rail and into the injectors. Step 3.a. The remainder of the fuel pump's output volume (that doesn't go to the fuel rail and out through the injectors) is bled off into a return line. Step 4. This return line fuel is routed through the cut-down Flexalite 4130 fuel cooler that's mounted to the bottom of the K&N 0990 air filter before it continues back to the Tee mentioned in Step 1. If you've got time on your hands and you believe that "a picture is worth a thousand words" heres a video I made this summer that must be worth about a million words (if you're interested in the subject matter, that is). |
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December 13th, 2011, 10:23 PM | #71 |
self wrencher
Name: john
Location: houston
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Hey guys
I saw Ecotrons offers OEM Kawi FI throttle bodies for $199 more with diff injectors. What's the advantage of this? Is it needed? |
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December 14th, 2011, 01:15 AM | #72 |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
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The advantage is that they are the OEM throttle bodies, the disadvantage is that they are used and $199 more expensive. Honestly, I doubt they make any difference at all.
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December 14th, 2011, 06:25 AM | #73 | |
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The same is true of water. No matter how high you turn up the stove, a pot of boiling water will not exceed 212F. But as a better example, a thermos bottle (like the kind in a lunch box) that is filled with liquid nitrogen will just sit there and smoke a little bit. Huh? That's because as the nitrogen evaporates, it cools the surrounding liquid to below the boiling point. Thus, liquid nitrogen in an open thermos bottle just sits there and smokes rather than just going whoosh. The same example works for dry ice. But in a cooler like you pictured, the gasoline cannot be cooled lower than ambient temperature. In that system, if the gas evaporates, it ruins everything. Sorry, but I must disagree with your closed loop cooling method. At least for hot climates.
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December 14th, 2011, 08:21 AM | #74 |
self wrencher
Name: john
Location: houston
Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): 08 250r and 07 600r Posts: A lot.
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If i sign up and decide to go with the $199 OEM throttle body, does the 20% off apply to it as well?
($599 + $199) x 0.8 = $638 ?? |
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December 14th, 2011, 08:21 AM | #75 | ||
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Wow. Was there any actual logic in that post? I couldn't find any. That post is such a mess of pseudo-scientific sounding garbage I'm having trouble figuring out how to address it. Okay, the first three paragraphs are complete fantasy so there's no need to respond to any of it. But then you get around to saying: Quote:
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December 14th, 2011, 09:07 AM | #76 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
In any case, feel free to disagree with a closed loop cooling method and come up with a better one on your own. Greg has designed one based on his knowledge and experience and it is obviously working great for him and more than likely others. We can only work with what our members have tried and/or willing to "test" on their own. Please test out some designs and report back on it's performance so that we may help further refinement of this conversion.
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December 14th, 2011, 10:07 AM | #77 | |
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As I've said in prior posts, I've got several thousand miles on my system and most of those miles were during this past summer, in the heat and in stop and go traffic around downtown Spokane. It's been thoroughly tested as far as protection against heat buildup in the fuel system is concerned. Also, I think the use of the term "closed loop" is confusing people. It's not my term. I don't think I've ever used that term to describe my system in any of my posts because it simply doesn't appy. Both my system and a "return to tank" system are exactly the same in how they vent bubbles or vapor: both do it through the fuel tank. My "fuel cooler" system and the "return to tank" system are equally "open loop" systems. The "return to tank" is simply more obvious in its openness (if that's even a word). My "fuel cooler" system is open because it has a vent line that returns bubbles/vapor to the fuel tank through the converted (ex-vacuum port) petcock line. |
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December 14th, 2011, 11:04 AM | #78 | |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
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Quote:
"For group buys, Ecotrons' throttle bodies only, because we do not have a lot of in-stock Kawasaki throttle bodies" I'm not sure if they would allow just one to be the OEM throttle body though.
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December 14th, 2011, 11:57 AM | #79 | |
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Quote:
If you were to apply heat to increase the fuel's temperature to its boiling point (extremely dangerous, don't attempt) the temperature of the fuel will not increase past that as long as there's some place for the fuel "steam" to go. If you seal the tank then the temperature and pressure will climb. |
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December 14th, 2011, 01:08 PM | #80 | |
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Quote:
The end result is fuel cooler "closed loop" vs return to the tank as the "cooler" is essentially the same thing since the tank (where all fuel ultimately goes back to regardless of system) is vented to atmosphere. Pressure should be EXACTLY the same inside vs outside and the difference in temperature is going to be negligible. I mean really? If you're concerned about hot climates, get a white tank and insulate it with a layer of foam because if there were problems with temperature, we'd have FI bikes breaking down and exploding all over the place. Haha, I teach undergraduate students immunology. I dont have a lot of patience either but Gin definitely helps.
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