335cc

[Somchai]

Originally Posted by bruce71198

I dont think im at the flow limimt of this head as the engine pulls HARD to the rev limiter.

I think you're on the right way, take a look at the attached picture and one thing you'll see is that even the rpm for torque (Coppia massima) with the 250 engine is lower than the 300.

I wish you good success in this project and then many FUN



I'll follow this interesting thread.

For those who never saw how many work tuning means, please look the movie from Dr. Suda tuning a ZXR 400 and enjoy it.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[nickjpass]

Jesus if I have to see ONE MORE CAMSHAFT


I SWEAR lolololol

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by nickjpass

Jesus if I have to see ONE MORE CAMSHAFT


I SWEAR lolololol

MotoCzysz has designed a motorcycle engine with a triple overhead camshaft configuration, with the intake ports descending through the cylinder head to two central intake ports between two outside exhaust camshafts actuating one of two exhaust valves per cylinder each.[9]

[cuong-nutz]

I'll donate towards a dyno run to see numbers.

[bruce71198]

Originally Posted by cuong-nutz

I'll donate towards a dyno run to see numbers.

Should have had jets today, I just checked the mail box, nothing there. As soon as I see them its off to the dyno.

[cuong-nutz]

Originally Posted by bruce71198

Should have had jets today, I just checked the mail box, nothing there. As soon as I see them its off to the dyno.

Ninja edit.

So you ever get the base gaskets?

[Racer x]

Good luck.
Remember the trans is oiled from the engine pump. Don't shut off the engine and let the rear wheel spin free. It will weld fifth gear to the output shaft.

I hope you can break the forty HP barrier

[bruce71198]

Originally Posted by cuong-nutz

Ninja edit.

So you ever get the base gaskets?

Yes. Thank you so much, that was kind of you to send those and ask for nothing in return. I hope I can return the favor somday. Just so you know both of those currently reside between my crankcase and cylinder block.

[bruce71198]

Originally Posted by Racer x

Good luck.
Remember the trans is oiled from the engine pump. Don't shut off the engine and let the rear wheel spin free. It will weld fifth gear to the output shaft.

I hope you can break the forty HP barrier

I remember this discussion from some time ago and would never have thought they would pressure feed the gear set. Some things you have to see to beleive.
Stay tuned for HP results....

[Racer x]

Can you tel me what you did to the head.

[bruce71198]

Originally Posted by Racer x

Can you tel me what you did to the head.

Bolted it on... Seriously, cleaned the gasket surface, checked the valve clearance and put it back on.

[garth285]

So you are running the 300 crank and rods and big bore pistons correct?

I know you said you may go to flat slides but have you considered swapping over to fuel injection or does your class not allow that?

I am in the process of putting the entire ninja 300 Fuel injection system, ECU and all on a 09 250r. I think it would be fairly easy to do.... and the plus to that is you can direct tune the ECU with a tuning cable as well. Just an idea!

[Racer x]

I can't wait to see numbers.

[Somchai]

Originally Posted by garth285

I am in the process of putting the entire ninja 300 Fuel injection system, ECU and all on a 09 250r. I think it would be fairly easy to do.... and the plus to that is you can direct tune the ECU with a tuning cable as well. Just an idea!

Since the oem-ecu is (very) restricted I wonder why you don't go this way?
https://www.diyautotune.com/

This gives you all chances without any limit.

I wish you good luck for your project also.

[BoBO]

^I was just going to suggest that, he can build his own standalone ecu. I did that on a few of my cars. I'm pretty sure diyautotune can customize him something or the OP can build his own. Either way it's a good option.

[garth285]

I have thought about going that route but I did not want the hassle of having to start directly from scratch. The thing is for just the same amount of money you can buy all the 300 parts for a conversion and if you buy a woolich racing ECU flasher for the 300 you can tune all you want with it in there. Not saying something like a microsquirt would be a great way to go. I'm just going to approach it a different way and see how it comes out!

[sharky nrk]

I would be interested to see some before and after work on the ninjette head. Being such a low cost bike/design; surely there would be some potential for even basic cleanup and flow work, and to the Nth degree on somethinge like a 335 build.

[cuong-nutz]

Originally Posted by sharky nrk

I would be interested to see some before and after work on the ninjette head. Being such a low cost bike/design; surely there would be some potential for even basic cleanup and flow work, and to the Nth degree on somethinge like a 335 build.

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...8&postcount=93

Very big gains can be had with a good clean up and port job. There are some sharp bends near the intake throats that can be smoothed out.

On the 300 head. The intake ports are larger and the roof is higher and smoother flowing into the valves. It also helps that the intake valves are larger on the 300 head. Main thing in still wondering is the port velocity.

[bruce71198]

Originally Posted by sharky nrk

I would be interested to see some before and after work on the ninjette head. Being such a low cost bike/design; surely there would be some potential for even basic cleanup and flow work, and to the Nth degree on somethinge like a 335 build.

Ideally the 300 head would be the best to start with, it already has the bigger valve. If you check out mgentz 250 NA build thread he has some photos you may be interested in.

[bruce71198]

jetting complete, one hour of dyno time and here are the results

[xorbe]

Making more power at 6.5K than my poor ninja at 13K lol that thing must scoot!!

[cbinker]

ok, i definitely need to know how to do this!

[psych0hans]

[Somchai]

Congrats, but it's not only the power - also the curve makes it looking

G R E A T

[Racer x]

Great job

[micoulisninja]

impressive !!!!
love the torque curve... who needs a gearbox now ?? hahaha
and you got over 40 from 9k all the way to 12+ and it keeps on strong to the limit !! wow, great job Bruce !!!
now I've got a record to break...

[bruce71198]

Thanks . At 11,700 rpm the HP dropped off, on the fuel ratio graph the engine went rich at that point too, no matter what I did with the needles and jets it kept going rich. I'm thinking the carbs are to small?
I think my next mod will be 300 head, cam timing, and big carbs..

[garth285]

How about the Ninja 300 Fuel injection and throttle bodies?

Looking great, that's some damn good power out of that small motor!

[subxero]

yeah, that power and torque curve look great. I might have to start squirreling away some cash to make this happen. I was already planning on doing some engine work this winter so I might just up the ante

[choneofakind]

brilliant! Keep a good list going with exactly what you've done. If you can just frankenstein parts together and build an awesome motor, it might be worth keeping track of for other riders.

This is great! Nice work. Can't wait till you get the fuel sorted. Might be able to hit a nice 45 hp.

[Bigballsofpaint]

Too bad my 300 class doesnt allow anything done below the heads. But if i dont end up racing, i will definetly have to do this! GJ bruce

[ninjamunky85]

Impressive no doubt. That dyno chart is even making my 300 jealous.

[bruce71198]

Originally Posted by garth285

How about the Ninja 300 Fuel injection and throttle bodies?

Looking great, that's some damn good power out of that small motor!

I have not considered the fuel injection. Not that I wouldnt, Im just old school. I have it stuck in my head that more power can be derived from carburetors.

[garth285]

Originally Posted by bruce71198

I have not considered the fuel injection. Not that I wouldnt, Im just old school. I have it stuck in my head that more power can be derived from carburetors.

LOL I got ya! Well I'm converting a stock 250 to fuel injection.... I'll post some results when done, will be interesting to see if it makes any power what so ever with fuel injection. I just love the fact that you can tune every single area of the RPM you want. I'll be adding a turbo on top so even if it doesnt pick up power stock I'll be using it a lot with a turbo.

[Somchai]

If you ever want to feel the difference between carburetor and injection then the only way I know from is to drive the Ferrari 308 in both versions.
The injection-model is smooth and powerful, while the carb-version feels aggressive and more powerful.
And to stay on-topic from my pov I think flat sliders should the best option.

[subxero]

Dilemma....

more totaled 300's = greater availability of used parts and cheaper prices

but

more totaled 300s = more riders going down...

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by bruce71198

I have not considered the fuel injection. Not that I wouldnt, Im just old school. I have it stuck in my head that more power can be derived from carburetors.

have read, seen, debated about that before... facts prove otherwise...
However in YOUR case (i.e. the small 250/300/3whatever cc engine on your side of the atlantic) there is one big advantage going on with the carbs... they are by far cost effective !!! if you choose the FI way you are definetely going to get 0,5-1hp more and better driveability, user friendly engine with a tiny bit smoother torque curve BUT you're gonna need... ECU, TBs, fuel pumps, harness, PC V, wideband II or autotune, O2 sensors blah blah blah -a pricey list and many more working hours and mind squeezing riddles for ??? 1 hp more at the most ?? never mind, loose a couple of pounds and we' re gonna be the same on the road or track performance-wise...
Bruce I've looked through these engines and their potentials... I don't know what choice you're gonna make as far as feeding it but you definetely need a 300 head and a well ported one...with wilder cams...
if you go carbs.. I have absolutely no experience or knowledge to advise you...and I bet you won't need much anyway...I am sure of your success in advance, judging from your current results !!
if you pick the EFI mountain to climb, I'll be glad to share any info with you and help you as much as I can...

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by bruce71198

I have not considered the fuel injection. Not that I wouldnt, Im just old school. I have it stuck in my head that more power can be derived from carburetors.

Originally Posted by Somchai

If you ever want to feel the difference between carburetor and injection then the only way I know from is to drive the Ferrari 308 in both versions.
The injection-model is smooth and powerful, while the carb-version feels aggressive and more powerful.
And to stay on-topic from my pov I think flat sliders should the best option.

the 308 was sold as FI only in countries with very strict emission control rules therefore it was "choked" from the 37 (ok, a bit exagerated number but you get the picture...)catalytic converters it had to use...
but I agree totally with you on the flat sliders aw far as Bruce's project is concerned...

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by garth285

LOL I got ya! Well I'm converting a stock 250 to fuel injection.... I'll post some results when done, will be interesting to see if it makes any power what so ever with fuel injection. I just love the fact that you can tune every single area of the RPM you want. I'll be adding a turbo on top so even if it doesnt pick up power stock I'll be using it a lot with a turbo.

Shawn don't fall into the trap of using those tiny 28mm 250 TBs... go ahead for the 32mm ones from the 300... don't forget you can tune anything and however you want on FI no matter what the rpm or throttle position... you can work miracles with a PC V or bazzaz etc...
and to show you how thoroughly "crazy" I am about modifying I have a new way of porting throttle bodies... you see I admire the work the Megabore guys do but it is expensive and there is always an alternative... besides if noone has tried it, I will
can any of you give me a crash course of an example of how to upload pics from imageshack to show you what I mean??

[micoulisninja]

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/540/2725e6.jpg/]
here it is almost done, just a tiny bit of polishing to do... flow is ncreased as if +1mm more inside diameter
[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/538/e0f8c6.jpg/]
on this pic you can see the one on the left is before I touch it, the one on the right is almost finished... carefully notice the difference of how much space is taken by the screws and the shaft is edged and fat...
this is the first thing to do for my new project...
if I mess up, I hope Alex can fix it up and give me some advice... I am a bit "no" school on computer stuff...sorry !!