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Old August 1st, 2016, 12:02 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
You can't "really" fix it, adding rubber to the tire is not an option. The pain has already been inflicted. Safety is ALWAYS my #1 concern. So I would just buy a new tire and sleep better at night while having the best possible confidence in my bike's tires in all conditions.

If not.... What would "I" do in your shoes?
Step 1 - Stop it from rubbing.
Do you have plenty of chain slack? If so, adjusting things back a mm or two may cure the rubbing problem. As long as your chain still has the proper slack after moving it and a 107 link chain is an option fyi. As you ride, the line will wear itself out. ie. heal itself.

Sell the tire as a "take off" and buy a more fitting size. If you go this route, do it NOW! Before the line gets too deep. A new rear tire is cheap enough but if I couldn't sell the larger tire, I would replace it anyway and store it in the garage for a later time or until it does sell.

I look at it like this, it's pretty much the same if you had a more "routine" issue with a new tire; a nail, a screw, a manufacturing defect, won't hold air well, whatever... If it needs replaced, then replace it and chalk it up to the cost of doing business. We ALL make mistakes that cost $$ sometimes. As riders, we forever will need to eval our own risk in tires and what we are willing to "bet our arses" riding on. It's the T in tclocs remember? Some riders will ride happily on that tire, others... no so much.

Adding a link to the chain is considered taboo at best, please DO NOT be tempted to do this. "Adding" risk elements should be avoided at all costs.
the only option financially right now is to try to see if I can move it back a little. 1" chain slack is what it's supposed to be right? I cannot afford to spend another 100 right now I guess I'll just be very careful until I can find a solution...
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Old August 1st, 2016, 12:04 PM   #42
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http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do_...chain_slack%3F
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Old August 1st, 2016, 12:10 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
"Too tight: Less than 35mm" "Too loose: More than 45mm"

pretty sure mine is much more loose than the model shows on this URL. I'll check it once i get home. I wonder if I can find a ruler like he has at auto zone or something! All I have at my house is a measuring tape.
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Old August 1st, 2016, 12:13 PM   #44
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A tape is fine enough, that is what I use. Just snug the axle bolt just over hand tight, the measure. Once within spec, torque as needed.
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Old August 2nd, 2016, 07:18 AM   #45
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Chain length?

Quote:
Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
Adding a link to the chain is considered taboo at best, please DO NOT be tempted to do this. "Adding" risk elements should be avoided at all costs, and you just be replacing one with another.
Csmith12, please clarify... Do you mean adding links to an existing chain? Or, changing a chain to a longer length? Changing the chain out would be a cost effective fix for this problem. Plus you have a new chain, but still the drawback of old sprockets.

Thanks for your input, Jim
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Old August 2nd, 2016, 07:42 AM   #46
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Yes Jim, adding a link to an existing chain. The easiest and cheapest fix would be to just pop another master link on the chain. BAM! instant 107 links, giving some extra length to slide the tire back some. It fixes the rubbing problem by adding another another risk to the chain. Buying a new chain and cutting it to 107 links would be a less risk option. But depending on the cost of a new chain vs a new tire well.... ya know, they both blow a $100 dollar bill to bits. :\

And then there is the preference of many riders who prefer to swap chains and sprockets together, so they wear together for maximum longevity.

Full disclosure: I have seen a rider at the track add a second master link to fit a 190 on his bike. He said he would replace it when he got home but it worked fine for the rest of the day. The extra link was rivet style, perhaps the fear of 2 master links comes from running to clip style links? imho, I don't like the risk of even one clip style, so only rivet style go on my bikes but that is just me and how I do things. I lost the clip (common issue) on my last clip style master link and finally said "never again."
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Old August 2nd, 2016, 08:06 AM   #47
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This is only my opinion, of course, but I don't think that adding a couple shallow water channels will have any noticeable effect on wet weather performance. If anything, they might help slightly, but probably not noticeably. My guess is that dry weather traction will be slightly but not noticeably reduced when the bike is upright, because of the slightly reduced contact area. In a thousand miles or so, they'll be gone anyway.

If I were a government safety official, I'd recommend throwing the tire away. If it were my tire, I would not be the least bit concerned, I'd keep an eye on it, and I'd buy a smaller tire next time.
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Old August 2nd, 2016, 02:40 PM   #48
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I don't think you can add "one link", the minimum is a whole link which will take you from 106 to 108. That gives 12.7 mm more room. The other option would be to change the sprocket, that way you can free up a half link, to give you 6 mm more play.

Adjusting the chain from loose to tight will give a fraction of a mm in my experience, I can never adjust more than 2 sixths of a turn on the adjustment bolts (in one go). One turn is 1 mm on those bolts I think. Or possibly 0.75 mm.
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Old August 2nd, 2016, 03:14 PM   #49
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I think I see where you are a coming from Rolf, but that is not how I would do it. You can't put two master links together as my post would read to the novice. That is my bad... sorry. The extra "inner plate" link would put it into 108 count. You would have to cut the chain in another place and add the extra master to get 107. Unless my hillbilly math is wrong, yes it happens. It's the difference between counting rollers vs plates. I feel where you are coming from though.

Your spot on about the sprocket though, I don't know how I missed something so obvious. lol
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Old August 8th, 2016, 06:19 AM   #50
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*Update 2*
got up to 85 ish 90
https://video.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t43.179...50&oe=57A8B2D1

I cant find out how to download this to upload it to youtube because I posted it to facebook and my phone didnt save it. But As you can see its gotten slightly worse, not horrible though. I did notice it melted to rubber to cover the very end of y treads. I can just carelfully peel it off, i did do it with one, but not sure if thats safe. I went to a different shop to see if they can move it back for me a few mm, but they want to charge me 88 an hour... they said it would take about an hour -_-. I dont know if I am confident enought to do it on my own, but looking at this video, doesnt it look like my tire is slightly out of allinement anyway/
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Old August 8th, 2016, 10:07 AM   #51
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The video link does not work. If it's still rubbing enough to melt the rubber, something is wrong. You should not be riding at 85-90 to "test" it any more at this point, you've confirmed something is wrong and now you're essentially ignoring it. Move the tire/wheel yourself, or pay shop rates for them to do it for you. Any other choice just doesn't hold up at this point.
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Old August 8th, 2016, 10:17 AM   #52
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Old August 8th, 2016, 10:21 AM   #53
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Old August 8th, 2016, 10:27 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
Yes Jim, adding a link to an existing chain. The easiest and cheapest fix would be to just pop another master link on the chain. BAM! instant 107 links, giving some extra length to slide the tire back some. It fixes the rubbing problem by adding another another risk to the chain. Buying a new chain and cutting it to 107 links would be a less risk option. But depending on the cost of a new chain vs a new tire well.... ya know, they both blow a $100 dollar bill to bits. :\

And then there is the preference of many riders who prefer to swap chains and sprockets together, so they wear together for maximum longevity.

Full disclosure: I have seen a rider at the track add a second master link to fit a 190 on his bike. He said he would replace it when he got home but it worked fine for the rest of the day. The extra link was rivet style, perhaps the fear of 2 master links comes from running to clip style links? imho, I don't like the risk of even one clip style, so only rivet style go on my bikes but that is just me and how I do things. I lost the clip (common issue) on my last clip style master link and finally said "never again."
It's a little different with rivet style links, I still wouldn't run a double master link due to increased risk but it is much better than running 2 clip style master links for sure. The chain will most definitely not last as long if it is set up this way as having an extra weak spot is far from ideal. Rivets, properly installed, are far more secure

I'd swap the rear sprocket out for a smaller one temporarily if $$$ was a major concern. No way I'd feel safe on a dragging tire

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroGravity360 View Post
*Update 2*
got up to 85 ish 90
https://video.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t43.179...50&oe=57A8B2D1

I cant find out how to download this to upload it to youtube because I posted it to facebook and my phone didnt save it. But As you can see its gotten slightly worse, not horrible though. I did notice it melted to rubber to cover the very end of y treads. I can just carelfully peel it off, i did do it with one, but not sure if thats safe. I went to a different shop to see if they can move it back for me a few mm, but they want to charge me 88 an hour... they said it would take about an hour -_-. I dont know if I am confident enought to do it on my own, but looking at this video, doesnt it look like my tire is slightly out of allinement anyway/
video didn't work but if it's heating up that much that's very bad given the conditions. There comes a point where you have to think of the value of your safety. Any crash will cost more than $88, and on top of that you are running the risk of personal injury. At this point I would install a different rear tire, or at a minimum adjust the bike farther back via sprocket change, tightening the chain a hair if it's loose or replacing the chain with a longer one. Ideally a new tire would be in the works, these things happen.

The ideal scenario is to replace the tire and possibly sell the current one as a takeoff to someone who has a bike it will properly fit. It is a shame you are not closer to me or I would provide you with one of my rear tire takeoffs free of charge (wouldn't have too much life left but it would have enough for you to have time to budget a new one)
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Old August 8th, 2016, 10:38 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
Yes Jim, adding a link to an existing chain. The easiest and cheapest fix would be to just pop another master link on the chain. BAM! instant 107 links, giving some extra length to slide the tire back some.
If you count your links this way you can't have an odd number of links
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/pict...ictureid=12989

And "popping in another master link" would only be possible with one of these
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/pict...ictureid=12990
Quote:
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It's a little different with rivet style links, I still wouldn't run a double master link due to increased risk but it is much better than running 2 clip style master links for sure. The chain will most definitely not last as long if it is set up this way as having an extra weak spot is far from ideal. Rivets, properly installed, are far more secure
Why is the master link any weaker than the rest of the links?
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Old August 8th, 2016, 10:45 AM   #56
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Why is the master link any weaker than the rest of the links?
Human imperfection in installation,
the rest of the chain is assembled by machines at exact tension so as to last as long as possible without stretching. A clip style link runs the risk of simply falling off, properly installed that risk is very minimal and safety wired it is almost non existent. A rivet link can be riveted either too tightly or too loosely very easily (the more common is too tightly) Even installed properly it is not the same tolerance as the rest of the chain so it will tend to wear slightly quicker than the rest of the chain as the miles pour on. In the short term there is no difference

None of this matters unless the chain is properly maintained, speaking of which I recall a post about the chain being poorly maintained by the previous owner of @ZeroGravity360 's bike so swapping that out may be the way to go in this scenario if it could use replacing anyway
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Old August 8th, 2016, 10:55 AM   #57
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oh my, so many responses. @Alex is wasn't really a "test" I was on a highway where the speed limit was 70 and I was trying to pass a truck. I just thought I would make an update to get peoples feedback, didnt mean to make anyone angry.

I'll put another link up because I feel the video in very important.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BI0gR8Qh...y=miss_shift89
@csmith12 I know I might do the work myself, it only need to be moved back a tiny bit, but I just dont want to mess things up too bad. Maybe I'll watch a few videos..
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Old August 8th, 2016, 11:24 AM   #58
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxZCoYq2j5w

This video is very helpful, I think I will follow his instructions to fix the problem. I really wish the shop would have told me to save me this headache -_-
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Old August 8th, 2016, 11:29 AM   #59
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Old August 8th, 2016, 11:30 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by ZeroGravity360 View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxZCoYq2j5w

This video is very helpful, I think I will follow his instructions to fix the problem. I really wish the shop would have told me to save me this headache -_-
I'm not sure you're understanding. You can't just adjust the chain slack to pull the wheel back unless the chain is actually that long to do so. If you pull the wheel back to gain clearance, but the chain is now too tight, you'll be risking more damage in a variety of places (more chain wear, damaged output shaft on the transmission). That's why all the posts above are debating how many links to add to the chain if you really do want to make the chain longer and pull the wheel back enough to gain clearance.

Stop blaming the shop. This is a basic problem caused by you buying a tire that is way too large for your bike.
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Old August 8th, 2016, 11:31 AM   #61
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I've found even with a good shop, you kind of have to watch them, and what they do or don't do. Sometimes they do extra things you don't want or need, other times they do exactly what you tell them to, even when you should have something different done, or something more.
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Old August 8th, 2016, 11:31 AM   #62
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Shops don't make much money telling you how to fix your own problems, nor do they give you advice you don't ask for -_-

Hope you get it sorted out
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Old August 8th, 2016, 11:35 AM   #63
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I'm not sure you're understanding. You can't just adjust the chain slack to pull the wheel back unless the chain is actually that long to do so. If you pull the wheel back to gain clearance, but the chain is now too tight, you'll be risking more damage in a variety of places (more chain wear, damaged output shaft on the transmission). That's why all the posts above are debating how many links to add to the chain if you really do want to make the chain longer and pull the wheel back enough to gain clearance.

Stop blaming the shop. This is a basic problem caused by you buying a tire that is way too large for your bike.
I'm pretty sure the manual says its supposed to have 35-45 mm slack. This means it can be up to 35mm and still be in regulations. I AM blaming the shop because even though I bought a tire too big they could have TOLD me I needed to do X,Y and Z I am inexperienced at this and they made me buy my own tire. I even ASKED them if the 140/80.17 was okay they said I needed to make sure it wasnt to wide to rub the SIDES of the swig arm. I really dont understand why you dont like me having a basic conversation with people to LEARN for next time and help people that search "140/80/17 on a ninja 250" because I sure as heck did and found nothing
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Old August 8th, 2016, 11:41 AM   #64
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That shop wasn't very good to begin with or they woul have done X, Y, Z in the first place

What size tires did come up in your searches? Inquiring minds n all
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Old August 8th, 2016, 11:45 AM   #65
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You bought a tire that was too big. People warned you to confirm it wasn't rubbing. You've confirmed it's rubbing, to the extent that in your own words, part of the tire is melting. It makes a "scary" sound at high speed as the tire expands and rubs more. You're still riding the bike.

The shop isn't risking their life. You are. The shop isn't ignoring advice. You are. The shop isn't being overly defensive. You are.

I hope you get it sorted, and I hope you continue to learn about how to properly ride, maintain, and enjoy your bike.
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Old August 8th, 2016, 11:45 AM   #66
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That shop wasn't very good to begin with or they woul have done X, Y, Z in the first place

What size tires did come up in your searches? Inquiring minds n all
The only thing I could find was 140/70/17 and 150/70/17
But the tire I was buying said the 140/70/17 version only fit a 4.0 rim. The 140/80/17 said it was for a 3.5 rim (ninja 250 size in the manual for the rear tire) So I searched this Forum and even google and NO ONE said anything about being careful about it rubbing the BACK of the swing arm so it never even crossed my mind. So what I did is went back to their website and made sure the width of the tire would fit. I took measurments of my old tire and made sure! So i DID do my research before buying this tire! It's not like I went out and just willy nilly bought a tire. I checked the measurements and everything! This is why I am so frustrated lol! I spend a lot of time trying to make sure this tire would fit and then this happens...
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Old August 8th, 2016, 11:51 AM   #67
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If you count your links this way you can't have an odd number of links
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/pict...ictureid=12989
I am from KY... hahahahahahah

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Old August 8th, 2016, 11:52 AM   #68
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You bought a tire that was too big. People warned you to confirm it wasn't rubbing. You've confirmed it's rubbing, to the extent that in your own words, part of the tire is melting. It makes a "scary" sound at high speed as the tire expands and rubs more. You're still riding the bike.

The shop isn't risking their life. You are. The shop isn't ignoring advice. You are. The shop isn't being overly defensive. You are.

I hope you get it sorted, and I hope you continue to learn about how to properly ride, maintain, and enjoy your bike.
the "scary" sound was not my tire it was 9k RPMs which has been confirmed to be wind hitting my helmet in a weird way. I was riding my bike because when I first posted it most of the people said it "didn't look bad" and I should "ride it to the end of its life" the only one who said he wouldn't ride on it was csmith. Again, I am trying to figure things out. yes it was rubbing but I thought all of it had been rubbed off, didnt expect it to expand MORE than what it already did. That is the difference between bias ply and radial tires, which is it was a radial tire it might not have happened (I am guessing)
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Old August 8th, 2016, 11:58 AM   #69
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Well folks put those tires on their because they fit and don't rub, and I don't know of any 150 designed for a 3.5 rim.
Most threads about putting larger tires on these bikes talk about rubbing issues, ive read them all (I like fat tires too)
I wish someone would have given you more advice, or the right advice the right way for you, I hope you have enough slack to get it moved out enough without causing other problems.
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Old August 8th, 2016, 12:04 PM   #70
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Your instagram video of it now is visible. This isn't minor surface rubbing. You're affecting the integrity of the tire. If I'm interpreting this right, you've worn/cut a channel 1/2"+ into the surface of the tire, splitting the tread. Here is your tire, next to a new BT45. That entire channel that the arrow points to is new on yours, right?

damaged tire:



new BT-45:



Buy a new rear tire (not a 140/80/17), and chalk it up as an investment in your riding education. If you're including shop costs to modify any of the chain links and adjust the chain slack, getting a new tire put on correctly isn't much more.
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Old August 8th, 2016, 12:07 PM   #71
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that's not good at all!
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Old August 8th, 2016, 12:08 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by JohnnyBravo View Post
Well folks put those tires on their because they fit and don't rub, and I don't know of any 150 designed for a 3.5 rim.
Most threads about putting larger tires on these bikes talk about rubbing issues, ive read them all (I like fat tires too)
I wish someone would have given you more advice, or the right advice the right way for you, I hope you have enough slack to get it moved out enough without causing other problems.
yeah :-/ but always on the sides. I don't think I read one about being careful on the back of the swing arm. This is why I didn't buy a 150 is because of the rubbing issue on the sides. Oh well, you live and you learn. The only thing I can do at this point is move it back (if there is enough slack) and start saving for a new tire (a radial tire this time)
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Old August 8th, 2016, 12:10 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyBravo View Post
Well folks put those tires on their because they fit and don't rub, and I don't know of any 150 designed for a 3.5 rim.
Most threads about putting larger tires on these bikes talk about rubbing issues, ive read them all (I like fat tires too)
I wish someone would have given you more advice, or the right advice the right way for you, I hope you have enough slack to get it moved out enough without causing other problems.
Dunlop Alpha 13.

They're on the race bike, a New Gen Ninja. They don't rub at all and stick like glue. 150/60-17.

I do, however, have suspension properly sprung for rider weight. See below, allowed rim width is 3.5-4.0. DOT tires, good for street use.

http://dunlopracing.com/tires-products/alpha-13/

Quote:
Fitment specs Rear: 150/60Rx17 Alpha 13
Recommended Rim range (3.50-4.00), Best Rim (4.00),
Width (149mm), Diameter (619mm)
Available Compounds: 1
Suggested Pressures: Hot on the warmers 33psi, or cold 28psi
Note: For street riding, follow the motorcycle owner’s manual for air pressure recommendations. For track or race use, optimal air pressures vary with track conditions but general suggested air pressures are above.
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Old August 8th, 2016, 12:10 PM   #74
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Human imperfection in installation,
the rest of the chain is assembled by machines at exact tension so as to last as long as possible without stretching. A clip style link runs the risk of simply falling off, properly installed that risk is very minimal and safety wired it is almost non existent. A rivet link can be riveted either too tightly or too loosely very easily (the more common is too tightly) Even installed properly it is not the same tolerance as the rest of the chain so it will tend to wear slightly quicker than the rest of the chain as the miles pour on. In the short term there is no difference

None of this matters unless the chain is properly maintained, speaking of which I recall a post about the chain being poorly maintained by the previous owner of @ZeroGravity360 's bike so swapping that out may be the way to go in this scenario if it could use replacing anyway
This interested me beacause at the track a few weeks ago I told another racer to lengthen his chain for more wheel base by adding a few links and he replied that you cant run 2 master links because it will weaken the chain. I asked him why the master would be any weaker than a standard link. He never answered. I was just wondering what the "general consensus" was.
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Old August 8th, 2016, 12:11 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Alex View Post
Your instagram video of it now is visible. This isn't minor surface rubbing. You're affecting the integrity of the tire. If I'm interpreting this right, you've worn/cut a channel 1/2"+ into the surface of the tire, splitting the tread. Here is your tire, next to a new BT45. That entire channel that the arrow points to is new on yours, right?

damaged tire:



new BT-45:



Buy a new rear tire (not a 140/80/70), and chalk it up as an investment in your riding education. If you're including shop costs to modify any of the chain links and adjust the chain slack, getting a new tire put on correctly isn't much more.
def not a 1/2 inch maybe like 3-4 mm

EDit: if you saw the video I put my finger nail in the hole and i have short nails. I touches the bottom on the tread I created. My nails are not more than 4-5 mm. I guess the video makes it look bigger, but the groove on the other side is about 1mm @Alex , When I get home I will put a ruler in it to show you.
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Old August 8th, 2016, 12:12 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by ZeroGravity360 View Post
yeah :-/ but always on the sides. I don't think I read one about being careful on the back of the swing arm. This is why I didn't buy a 150 is because of the rubbing issue on the sides. Oh well, you live and you learn. The only thing I can do at this point is move it back (if there is enough slack) and start saving for a new tire (a radial tire this time)
I would get a new tire.

There are a bunch of us that are recommending the Pilot Streets including a review from a former AMA rookie of the year(Jason).
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Old August 8th, 2016, 12:15 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by bruce71198 View Post
This interested me beacause at the track a few weeks ago I told another racer to lengthen his chain for more wheel base by adding a few links and he replied that you cant run 2 master links because it will weaken the chain. I asked him why the master would be any weaker than a standard link. He never answered. I was just wondering what the "general consensus" was.
Oh for sure it can be done, but I'd rather avoid it if at all possible. I wouldn't consider it with a clip style master link but with rivets I'd do it temporarily. It's done regularly on stretched bikes and with drag racing but they go through chains stupid fast to begin with. It creates a higher potential for a failure, nowhere near a guarantee. The real issue I have with it is accelerated wear
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Old August 8th, 2016, 12:18 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by ZeroGravity360 View Post
def not a 1/2 inch maybe like 3-4 mm

EDit: if you saw the video I put my finger nail in the hole and i have short nails. I touches the bottom on the tread I created. My nails are not more than 4-5 mm. I guess the video makes it look bigger, but the groove on the other side is about 1mm
4mm is 0,15 inch.

That's way more than that. At least 1/4 inch, probably more.

Get a new tire before that one blows up.
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Old August 8th, 2016, 12:19 PM   #79
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Amanda, the type of tire doesn't really have anything to do with this. A radial tire that is too tall would have had the same issue. :\ With a stock setup, you really want to stay with a 130\70 or 140\70 size tire. There are only a few larger tire options outside of those that are known to be commonly compatible without issue or customization (gearing, chain, swing arm mods).

Sadly, this tire is now trash and you really, really, REALLY need to think about alternate means of transportation other than the bike until fixed. I will head up to the garage and see if I have a take off that might get you through the rest of the season. You pay shipping and you can have it, it shouldn't be so bad from my area to yours.

EDIT: You will look cool too! No chicken strips!!!
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Old August 8th, 2016, 12:19 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex View Post
Your instagram video of it now is visible. This isn't minor surface rubbing. You're affecting the integrity of the tire. If I'm interpreting this right, you've worn/cut a channel 1/2"+ into the surface of the tire, splitting the tread. Here is your tire, next to a new BT45. That entire channel that the arrow points to is new on yours, right?

damaged tire:



new BT-45:



Buy a new rear tire (not a 140/80/70), and chalk it up as an investment in your riding education. If you're including shop costs to modify any of the chain links and adjust the chain slack, getting a new tire put on correctly isn't much more.
You have already made a weak point in the tire. DO NOT just bump the tire back, that thing needs replaced before the next time you ride going 90 miles and it blows.

That is no bueno
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