turbo / turbocharger / turbocharging

[Alex]

Hans, the only intellectual challenge in this thread is trying to determine if you truly believe what you are saying, or if this is an extended troll attempt. I and everyone else here eagerly anticipate interesting build threads of just about all sorts of modifications, and that would certainly include turbocharging our ninjettes.

You will receive much less flak once you actually buy and or start to build something. Up until then, people will continue to progressively discount all of the supposed research and analysis, especially when it comes up against people who have, you know, actually built something.

I want to stay optimistic, but your continued attacks on naysayers, supported by nothing at all other than supposed intellectual prowess, says to me that this is that much less likely to ever reach any sort of fruition. Time will tell.

[Lowspeed Lowside]

Originally Posted by Alex

Hans, the only intellectual challenge in this thread is trying to determine if you truly believe what you are saying, or if this is an extended troll attempt. I and everyone else here eagerly anticipate interesting build threads of just about all sorts of modifications, and that would certainly include turbocharging our ninjettes.

I already shelled out $44.36, so unless you think I'm dishonest, you should assume that I'm committed.

Originally Posted by Alex

You will receive much less flak once you actually buy and or start to build something. Up until then, people will continue to progressively discount all of the supposed research and analysis, especially when it comes up against people who have, you know, actually built something.

The most flak is coming from the instant-gratification crowd. At present there is exactly one committed developer of whom it is apparently expected to solve every economic and technical problem by, you know, next Tuesday.

Without being able to delegate partial problem-solving to competent individuals, seven months is a very short time. Something like "Hey, why didn't you get turbo X? It's cheaper, more suitable for our engine and makes fresh coffee!", isn't very helpful when you've just made flanges that fit turbo Y.

Originally Posted by Alex

I want to stay optimistic, but your continued attacks on naysayers, supported by nothing at all other than supposed intellectual prowess, says to me that this is that much less likely to ever reach any sort of fruition. Time will tell.

If you think that I'm 'bat-sh*t crazy', 'a joke' lacking intellectual prowess, then wanting to stay optimistic is nonsense. But, if I were you I'd worry much more about the attempt being successful, but useless to the community.

A reminder: the decision to release any source code under an open source license, will be certainly be influenced by how much the community contributes (just to make it clear: we're talking about ideas, not cash).

Originally Posted by Racer x

I guess the problem is the budget, at least it is for me . Even if all the electronics are FREE and work perfect . The mechanical part will be more than the budget will allow.
I am trying to keep an open mind. From my experience that involves THIS motorcycle for over 4 years of land speed racing and another 30 years of hot rodding and engine modifications tells me that getting something to work at all is the first thing.But failure means the engine is damaged and then where is the budget?

The gamble is that the electronics will warn us when we're about to break something.

Originally Posted by Racer x

There is ONE turbo 250 ninja I know of .The owner I know personally. And I work with the builder on a project with my bike . The owner spent over 50,000 dollars on the bike. So forgive me for being skeptical that you can do it for 1000 dollars .

I doubt he spent $50,000 on the parts that are currently in operation. One thing to consider is that we humans are prone to the fallacy of sunk cost. For example, if someone spent $20,000 they are more likely to spend another $10,000 to justify the expense, rather than cutting their losses, starting over and getting the job done for $5,000.

Originally Posted by Racer x

From you posts up to this point I have to ask if you even have a 250 ninja. Or have done any engine modifications. Even with my experience I am putting holes in pistons and breaking things . So does your budget include damaged parts? OR is it 50,000 dollars of R&D then 1000 dollars to build a system AFTER the R&D is done.

The budget does not include unintentionally damaging parts that are currently in operation.



My ninjette is a bit shy, so she's trying to hide behind the seriously gutted 1929 Ford, hoping to avoid being spotted. We can seeeeee you, baby!!!! Yes, those are ZX-6 mirrors. Yes, that is duct tape. Yes, those are yet-to-be-installed clip-ons and mirrors with integrated LED's. Yes, we have a person suffering from DM1in the family and that is one of her discarded walkers. Oh, lookie! The weed-whacker managed to squeeze himself into the picture. Awwwwww, ain't he cute? Well, I think Rosie (Blue) and Herbie (Black/Green) are such a beautiful couple, I don't care what people say about them being full of trash!!

Happy, now?

Originally Posted by Racer x

IF I where you I would dispense with name calling . You are a member of MENSA that to me means you can calculate the angle and friction coefficient of a knot .But are incapable of tying you shoes . No offence.

None taken. There is even rumor of a member who doesn't do his laces, because they'll only come undone again. Fortunately, I only do exceptionally well in the tests that correlate highly with reasoning abilities, which means that if I need to know the friction coefficient of Velcro I have to look it up like everybody else.

[Racer x]

He has had some of the best people build things like the fuel system and the engine and that cost money. REAL money.
50K is what he will admit to. I was looking at spending close to 10 K on a ignition system alone.
As for warning about things ABOUT to break . Good luck. From what I have seen things happen fast .And even with electronics that move at the speed of light. The problems are hard to just stop once they start to happen. Like detonation.Everything was going along fine .Bike was going over 122 mph then the power dropped off. No warning not even a puff of smoke.

I am not one to look for quick fixes .I have spent four years trying to go 125 mph. Instant gratification comes from buying a Hyabusa.

But I assume you will be trying this out on your bike

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Lowspeed Lowside

If you think that I'm 'bat-sh*t crazy',

I think the thread speaks for itself:

Originally Posted by Lowspeed Lowside

The weed-whacker managed to squeeze himself into the picture. Awwwwww, ain't he cute? Well, I think Rosie (Blue) and Herbie (Black/Green) are such a beautiful couple, I don't care what people say about them being full of trash!!

There's no problem with being 'bat-sh*t crazy', btw, you just need to conform to the agreed upon norms here on this site. Keep the personal attacks to a minimum, continue to post on-topic in the appropriate sub-forums, and nobody will stop you. But once again, taking months to think about something, and threatening to not release things depending on the help you receive from a whole bunch of other supporters who may or may not think you are truly, in your own words, 'bat-sh*t crazy', means this thread continues to be nothing more than mindless entertainment that will grow stale over time.

[Lowspeed Lowside]

Originally Posted by Racer x

He has had some of the best people build things like the fuel system and the engine and that cost money. REAL money.
50K is what he will admit to. I was looking at spending close to 10 K on a ignition system alone.

Wow, talk about commitment. But, we are not only faced with rapidly diminishing returns, we'll also run into trouble arguing that that bike is still a Ninja 250r, rather than a $49,000 custom made motorcycle which happens to have $1,000 worth of Ninja 250r parts.

Originally Posted by Racer x

As for warning about things ABOUT to break . Good luck. From what I have seen things happen fast .And even with electronics that move at the speed of light. The problems are hard to just stop once they start to happen. Like detonation.Everything was going along fine .Bike was going over 122 mph then the power dropped off. No warning not even a puff of smoke.

At 12,000RPM one revolution is 5 milliseconds (200Hz), our hardware should let us easily sample at rates up to 200KHz which gives a computer 2000 samples between ignitions in a chamber - plenty of time to detect something fishy and shut off the ignition. Unfortunately you didn't have any engine monitoring equipment running, so the following is mere speculation, but if there was e.g. a 'ping' which put a pit into the piston creating a hot spot in the previous cycle, then the 'pong' in the next cycle could have been prevented.

Originally Posted by Racer x

But I assume you will be trying this out on your bike

Ouch. One of the reasons I would like to have four oversized fuel injectors is that I want to see for myself what effect different fuel injection patterns have.

Originally Posted by Alex

I think the thread speaks for itself:

Sorry, I couldn't resist: those happen to be the actual, official names of the Lexington trash containers. I kid you not:

http://askusheraldleader.wordpress.c...nny-and-rosie/

Apology accepted.

Originally Posted by Alex

There's no problem with being 'bat-sh*t crazy', btw, you just need to conform to the agreed upon norms here on this site. Keep the personal attacks to a minimum, continue to post on-topic in the appropriate sub-forums, and nobody will stop you. But once again, taking months to think about something, and threatening to not release things depending on the help you receive from a whole bunch of other supporters who may or may not think you are truly, in your own words, 'bat-sh*t crazy', means this thread continues to be nothing more than mindless entertainment that will grow stale over time.

I think you interpreted something as a 'threat' that isn't one: as soon as there is a community interest, then publishing all source code becomes absolutely mandatory! After all, we're talking about technology that can potentially drain the gas tank and shoot flames out of the exhaust.

Trust the programmer but by all means verify the code. Even a novice can detect sloppy programming and anti-patterns in the design.

FYI, 'bat-sh*t crazy' are not my own words. I used them in reference to the 'minimal personal attack' against me in this post:

Originally Posted by greg737

About year from now I'm going to search around and find this thread (it'll be long dead and you'll be long gone from this forum). Then I'm going to give it a "bump" to get it to the top and my post will be, "Remember this guy? How Bat-sh*t crazy was he?"

Now that that's settled, I presume we can continue to post on-topic in the appropriate sub-forums.

[Racer x]

You are going to to learn a lot once you go from theatrical discussion to putting together parts.

I still say the budget is unrealistic.

[Lowspeed Lowside]

Originally Posted by Racer x

You are going to to learn a lot once you go from theatrical discussion to putting together parts.

The first thing I'm going to study is how the guys at Kawasaki engineered the ignition circuit. Unless someone comes up with a better idea, I'm going to do it the old fashion way by taking a peek inside the black box.

Originally Posted by Racer x

I still say the budget is unrealistic.

Here's some food for thought: a new Kawasaki Ninja 250R Igniter Unit 21119-0096 at Bike Bandit is $379.55, used ones are offered on ebay for $125.

In theory we have agreed that our budget cannot be supplemented by selling used parts, yet in practice there is an actual chance of ending up with extra cash before we even get started.

What do you think is inside the ignition box that justifies an asking price of $380?

Gold? State-secrets? Pictures of Tom Cruise making out with John Travolta?

[Lowspeed Lowside]

Originally Posted by Racer x

I was looking at spending close to 10 K on a ignition system alone.

If setting a land-speed record is your goal, you're better off spending 10K on running the following ad in as many newspaper classifieds as possible:

Wanted: anorexic amputee (right leg). Maximum hight 4'6". Must be willing to work nights & weekends & ride a motorcycle without wearing a helmet. Thong and pasties will be provided. Baldness considered a plus. Serious inquiries only!

[Racer x]

The Brt-Tis ignition system cost 375 dollars and is fully programmable . It woks great
I have set or borken over 20 land speed records with it.And I ran that ad already .That is how I how I got a girlfriend.

[Liber]

Originally Posted by Lowspeed Lowside

Wow, talk about commitment. But, we are not only faced with rapidly diminishing returns, we'll also run into trouble arguing that that bike is still a Ninja 250r, rather than a $49,000 custom made motorcycle which happens to have $1,000 worth of Ninja 250r parts.

Sorry, I couldn't resist: those happen to be the actual, official names of the Lexington trash containers. I kid you not:

http://askusheraldleader.wordpress.c...nny-and-rosie/

Apology accepted.

I think you interpreted something as a 'threat' that isn't one: as soon as there is a community interest, then publishing all source code becomes absolutely mandatory! After all, we're talking about technology that can potentially drain the gas tank and shoot flames out of the exhaust.

Originally Posted by Lowspeed Lowside

I already shelled out $44.36, so unless you think I'm dishonest, you should assume that I'm committed.


I doubt he spent $50,000 on the parts that are currently in operation. One thing to consider is that we humans are prone to the fallacy of sunk cost. For example, if someone spent $20,000 they are more likely to spend another $10,000 to justify the expense, rather than cutting their losses, starting over and getting the job done for $5,000.

The budget does not include unintentionally damaging parts that are currently in operation.

None taken. There is even rumor of a member who doesn't do his laces, because they'll only come undone again. Fortunately, I only do exceptionally well in the tests that correlate highly with reasoning abilities, which means that if I need to know the friction coefficient of Velcro I have to look it up like everybody else.

First off, this thread is dildos.

Since you are so good at reasoning with available information, you should have been able to see that Alex lives in the Bay Area, not in Lexington. He owes you no apology, because you intentionally pretended to talk nonsense in order to lure someone into confronting you, so you could bait them again by implying they owe you an apology for said confrontation.

Why are you so worried about what other people think when it comes to the bike? This is Your project. You will know that it is a ninja 250, and imho everyone who wants to waste their time arguing over whether it is custom or not is an idiot.

Actually, you seem quite obsessed with what other people think about you and your ideas, a trademark symptom of low self-respect. Instead of wasting your time arguing on a point by point basis about things completely unrelated to your project, I'm sure you could be doing far more productive things with your life.

I'm not sure what you mean community interest? Anything can be misconstrued as community interest. Do you mean community investment?

$44 isn't much to be "committed" to and you are pointing out that humans are prone to sunk cost fallacies?...lol

You are either a complete idiot or you are a failtroll, or both.

[Lowspeed Lowside]

Originally Posted by Liber

You are either a complete idiot or you are a failtroll, or both.

Originally Posted by Alex

Keep the personal attacks to a minimum, continue to post on-topic in the appropriate sub-forums, and nobody will stop you.

[Liber]

eh, whatever, I'm not the one baiting people into confronting me so I can portray myself as intellectually superior.

Honestly, calling you an idiot and failtroll is keeping it to a minimum. I'm just calling you out because I'm tired of reading your spam regarding concepts you are completely unfamiliar with.

Don't try to troll and expect that no one is going to call you out on it. This whole thread is full of you adding your nonsensical digressions that only serve to confuse your audience. Since you are obviously well versed in making yourself look knowledgeable(knowledge =/= intelligence) about a wide variety of topics, I would think you would know how to keep the illusion intact.

I have almost no knowledge about any of this stuff, so I didn't expect to grasp much of it since it all seemed pretty in depth, but when you have experienced mechanics and gearheads shooting you down, it's time to take a different approach and consider what they have to say instead of arguing them into a hole.

I'm sure you will go through this and pick it apart, since thats what those who get called out do, but everyone else should be warned about what you are up to, and I for one don't think you are contributing much. How about you go out and do something, take a picture and post it.

[kamikaze]

Originally Posted by Lowspeed Lowside

So, far almost every self-proclaimed expert has announced that it cannot be done because he cannot (or thinks he cannot or has heard from his cleaning lady's mother-in law's second cousin once removed that he cannot) do it.

For example, this is useless:



Anybody who has actual experience in R&D knows that we're running a large risk of wrecking a lot of stuff during development. Experimenting with expensive components is just plain foolish. The primary objective is to get stuff to work. The secondary objective is to get stuff to work well.

Compare this to:



The next time this guy posts something, I'm going to pay much more attention, because he made several successful attempts before he concluded that it was NOT FUN. This post and the fact that electronics are cheap has made conversion to EFI a sub-goal.

Nevertheless, I'm beginning to suspect that a very large number of posters tries to compensate the higher bodily injury risk of motorcycling by displaying extreme cowardice when it comes to intellectual challenges.

Shoestring budget?

You don't seem to realize that the cost of developing the software alone will be approximately $50,000. However, our actual expenses will be much lower because we are doing all the R&D and installation ourselves. Why is that so hard to understand?

Why do you insist on being an ignoranus (a person who is both stupid and an anus)?

Firstly, Anyone who is serious about putting together a well made kit probably isn't going to be posting on a message board like this. Now I understand trying to put together a kit on a budget, but a budget kit isn't going to have one off EFI systems with custom homebrew firmwares. I don't know that I'd trust anything like that if I wrote it myself, because I don't have the ability nor the means to test it properly before potentially endangering others by releasing it to them without proper testing.

Secondly, all your calculations and numbers and other crap to me seem like a way to make yourself seem more credible. That you admitted that you've got a whopping $45 invested in this project with 3 pages of mostly you talking to yourself seems to support this argument.

Third, you don't want people to insult you, yet anyone that doesn't agree with you gets **** like this:

Why do you insist on being an ignoranus (a person who is both stupid and an anus)?

might want to take some of your own advice buddy. I'm telling you, straight up, that I believe that someone with 10 years experience with forced induction is someone you might want to listen to. You are a self proclaimed n00b according to your first post. 10 years real world experience (even if he blew up every motor he boosted) vs your internet research is no contest. If you honestly believe that you can do better with $45 and ~6 hours of internet research then I'm sure there's a boatload of NHRA teams (amongst other people) that would love for you work for them because you must be a genius.

Good luck in your endeavor. I'm not religious in the least, but god be with anyone that tests this contraption, cause when it fails at 140mph in a corner cause someone forgot a semicolon in their custom firmware it's going to hurt. A LOT.

[Lowspeed Lowside]

Originally Posted by kamikaze

Firstly, Anyone who is serious about putting together a well made kit probably isn't going to be posting on a message board like this. Now I understand trying to put together a kit on a budget, but a budget kit isn't going to have one off EFI systems with custom homebrew firmwares. I don't know that I'd trust anything like that if I wrote it myself, because I don't have the ability nor the means to test it properly before potentially endangering others by releasing it to them without proper testing.

Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow. (Linus' Law)

I think I understand your concerns, but I also think that you're short-selling your abilities. Maybe you have been listening to too many experts telling you that you don't have means or ability. The problem with experts is that their experience helps them to be right considerably more often than wrong. Fortunately, there is irrefutable evidence supporting the claim that experts are not always right.

Originally Posted by kamikaze

Secondly, all your calculations and numbers and other crap to me seem like a way to make yourself seem more credible. That you admitted that you've got a whopping $45 invested in this project with 3 pages of mostly you talking to yourself seems to support this argument.

I think you are getting the wrong impression. I post calculations so that people can check the underlying assumptions and the arithmetic. Nobody is perfect and getting the math wrong is expensive.

FYI, $50 is 5% of the maximum budget. We'll definitely need a microcontroller to record the rate-of-change in crank-shaft RPMs, so that we can substitute expensive dyno-runs, by picking a flat stretch on a road and recording timing deltas with open throttle in 2nd gear. We should even be able to compute absolute rear wheel hp according to E=1/2mv^2 + corrective term for air resistance, which we can compute by doing the same thing in 3rd gear. Even if you don't want a turbo, this can assist you to tune your carburetors properly, without having to rely on the current expert advice to check whether 'it feels like it pulls harder'. Using interpolation you should also be able to choose the right jets, taper, shims and whatnot else with much less effort.

I can see that spending $500 on dyno-runs signals commitment, but unfortunately it also signals a severe lack of creativity and thriftiness, both of which are detrimental to reaching our goal.

Originally Posted by kamikaze

Third, you don't want people to insult you, yet anyone that doesn't agree with you gets **** like this:

I know that was childish (but you started!)

Originally Posted by kamikaze

I'm telling you, straight up, that I believe that someone with 10 years experience with forced induction is someone you might want to listen to. You are a self proclaimed n00b according to your first post. 10 years real world experience (even if he blew up every motor he boosted) vs your internet research is no contest.

All the experts with 10 years of experience claim it cannot be done, not by me or anybody else. Why should anybody listen to them if a successful attempt means that they were wrong?

Therefore, it's entirely logical to ignore those who excel at flashing credentials, yet fail to provide a single non-fallacious argument why the attempt cannot be successful.

Isn't reasoning fun?

Originally Posted by kamikaze

If you honestly believe that you can do better with $45 and ~6 hours of internet research then I'm sure there's a boatload of NHRA teams (amongst other people) that would love for you work for them because you must be a genius.

With those constraints I don't qualify as a genius. I probably average about six hours of research for every post in this thread, which means that I have $45 and approximately 250 hours invested into the project.

Originally Posted by kamikaze

Good luck in your endeavor. I'm not religious in the least, but god be with anyone that tests this contraption, cause when it fails at 140mph in a corner cause someone forgot a semicolon in their custom firmware it's going to hurt. A LOT.

You have the same problem running OEM firmware, with the big difference that you're forced to trust the OEM, because it's very difficult to verify whether the firmware doesn't have serious bugs and in many cases it's even illegal to reverse-engineer because of copyright restrictions.

[Racer x]

So now. You are going to Test on the street. Does your budget include legal fees and towing?

[rusninja]

44 bucks commited? I have spent about 350 bucks on safety gear when i have no job and just a dream of getting my little ninja even when my parents try to talk me out of wanting a motorcycle. :S

Putting things on paper isnt really concidered a build, so unless you have the money you claim it costs to build the turbo for the 250. You are not commited :S

also i would not go pokeing fun at people with experience, when all you have is your opinion if you do ever get around to investing your money into a turbo no one you insulted will want to give you any advice.

[Lowspeed Lowside]

Originally Posted by Racer x

So now. You are going to Test on the street. Does your budget include legal fees and towing?

Yes, it includes all legal fees and towing, which I expect to be $0

The stock gearing ratio for 2nd gear is 34/19, the stock final drive ratio is 14/45, so with stock 130/70/17 tires the speed at 12500 rpm is 50.6 mph.
The stock gearing ratio for 3rd gear is 31/22, the stock final drive ratio is 14/45, so with stock 130/70/17 tires the speed at 12500 rpm is 64.3 mph.

I can do the measurements during my commute to work, which means data collection is free. Another advantage is that timing advances will have to be made in a conservative fashion (probably around 10us), which means that putting a hole in my piston will remain an unlikely event. It will be very rewarding to study the diminishing marginal increase of power vs. the increasing amount of unexplained variance in engine noise.

For example, if an advance by 10us si predicted to increase power by 1%, but we predict an increase in variance by 1000%, we know that we're so much more likely to blow a hole in our piston, that it's not worth trying. According to my calculations, 1% more power should translate into a difference of approximately 0.6 mph at 122mph.

Originally Posted by rusninja

44 bucks commited? I have spent about 350 bucks on safety gear when i have no job and just a dream of getting my little ninja even when my parents try to talk me out of wanting a motorcycle. :S

Until now I spent about the same amount of money on the bike as I have spent on gear, although at any one time the gear I'm wearing is only about $1,000.

Originally Posted by rusninja

Putting things on paper isnt really concidered a build, so unless you have the money you claim it costs to build the turbo for the 250. You are not commited :S

At present I don't even know the final cost, but I do know that if I go out now and spend the remaining $955.64 (which I have earmarked), and need to order a $0.02 resistor later on, then I didn't build it for under $1,000.

It you want to help, please take a look at the list of required materials. For example, we'll need plastic male/female connectors for the electronics, preferably with different characteristics. I can buy a pair for $1, but if you can locate a supplier selling them by the pound for $20 please post the link. We'll also need heat resistant silicone tubing, worm-drive clamps, exhaust piping (or a substitute), etc. I've found piezoelectic pressure sensors (0-29 psi) 5 for $20, but if you can find a supplier that sells them for $3 we might have only saved $1, but saving 25% on everything leaves $250 unallocated, which means we can afford higher grade materials.

Originally Posted by rusninja

also i would not go pokeing fun at people with experience, when all you have is your opinion if you do ever get around to investing your money into a turbo no one you insulted will want to give you any advice.

It's a two-way street.

At present people are pokeing fun at me, so I take your argument to mean that once I gain experience I shouldn't give any advice to anybody who insulted me.

Not my style.

Adding code to display the following pop-up after you turn off the ignition is:

[Racer x]

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com...park-Plug.aspx
http://www.amazon.com/Repsol-MOTO-RA.../dp/B0036GG1TY
http://www.bikebandit.com/engine-ice

This is 150 dollars for oil and spark plugs and coolant. That and your 44 dollar thingey leaves 800 dollars for a turbo charger, fuel system, ignition system ,engine work ,inter cooler, fabrication of pipes and flanges.wiring ,solder ,shrink tubing, tape,electrical connectors, nuts, bolts, washers ,paint and a whole lot more.

I wish I could get elevated from a "so called" expert an actual expert. This is my shop with 3 250 ninjas 6 engines, fairings ,tool, parts ,junk and cats

Do you have a photo of you work shop? where are you going to build you turbo 250.

[bob138]

Originally Posted by Lowspeed Lowside

At 12,000RPM one revolution is 5 milliseconds (200Hz), our hardware should let us easily sample at rates up to 200KHz which gives a computer 2000 samples between ignitions in a chamber - plenty of time to detect something fishy and shut off the ignition. Unfortunately you didn't have any engine monitoring equipment running, so the following is mere speculation, but if there was e.g. a 'ping' which put a pit into the piston creating a hot spot in the previous cycle, then the 'pong' in the next cycle could have been prevented.

That is assuming the reaction isn't already going. If the cylinder wall is just about overheated then simply killing ignition won't reset the whole motor. The piston will keep moving (friction) and could be enough to push the cylinder wall over the edge.

Just some food for thought.

Bob

[Racer x]

The pit in the piston causing a hot spot is slightly inacurate. The hot spot is the ground side of the plug. It heats up because it is sticking out .The glowing hot ground electrode will set off the fireing cycle before the spark plug sparks. This is called pre ignition.There will be more than a "PIT"in the piston.
The cure is serface gap plugs they are 48 dollars each .That is 480 dollars a case.

[Lowspeed Lowside]

Originally Posted by Racer x

This is 150 dollars for oil and spark plugs and coolant. That and your 44 dollar thingey leaves 800 dollars for a turbo charger, fuel system, ignition system ,engine work ,inter cooler, fabrication of pipes and flanges.wiring ,solder ,shrink tubing, tape,electrical connectors, nuts, bolts, washers ,paint and a whole lot more.

1. Oil changes have to be done whether you have a turbo or not, so it's not fair to count oil. Also, synthetic is expected to get us 2.2% more power, but since we'll be able to generate enough power with a turbo to wreck the engine twice, synthetic is a complete waste of money.



2. Give me one good reason why we wouldn't want to tweak the coolant by mixing our own from antifreeze and distilled water. Water has higher specific heat, so the same volume of an 80/20 mixture will carry more heat away from the engine. As a perk the price per gallon of finished product drops to about $2, which is less than one tenth of the price of Engine Ice.

3. The quoted price is for a 10-pack of spark-plugs. We only need two, which we already have.

Since you like to exaggerate cost, maybe we can agree on you budgeting $10K in which case you should base your calculations on the most expensive supplier and highest-end parts you can find.

Originally Posted by Racer x

I wish I could get elevated from a "so called" expert an actual expert. This is my shop with 3 250 ninjas 6 engines, fairings ,tool, parts ,junk and cats

Experience makes the expert. You have no experience in successfully controlling costs, proper budgeting, and conducting a cost-benefit analysis under uncertainty, but you do have really nice shop.

I sent you a friend request, just so that we don't misunderstand each other again.

As soon as we get to a stage where we actually put stuff together, I'll gladly take your advice on how to do it properly, unless it requires $15,000 of platinum-based solder that was designed to be used on a mission to mars. In that case, I'll consider using loctite to secure the electronics to the $7.11 prototyping breadboard, neither of which is currently included in the budget.

Originally Posted by Racer x

Do you have a photo of you work shop? where are you going to build you turbo 250.

See above picture of my garage. It's the spot currently occupied by the gutted 1927 Ford, which is for sale. The owner (a friend of the family) would be thrilled to get $15K, but he'd probably accept for $10K. I think the price includes pistons and a bunch of other stuff, but I'm not sure.

[Lowspeed Lowside]

Originally Posted by bob138

That is assuming the reaction isn't already going. If the cylinder wall is just about overheated then simply killing ignition won't reset the whole motor. The piston will keep moving (friction) and could be enough to push the cylinder wall over the edge.

Just some food for thought.

Bob

Yummy! Munch, munch.

In principle we can ignore unpredictable engine failures, because there is really nothing we can do to prevent them. Yet, as soon as we know that something's not right, we at least have a chance to stop it from getting worse. In addition to killing the ignition we could open the fuel injector(s) for the entire cycle for additional cooling. If we want to slow down the engine as fast as possible, we can consider pre-igniting the other chamber with an as-lean-as-possible mixture, with the hope of trading off a small catastrophe against a big one. In a (likely futile) attempt to prevent the inevitable wave of that's-so-bat-sh*t-stupid-this-guy-needs-to-be-institutionalized comments, I'll point out that the tactic is almost an exact analog to fire-fighters trying to gain control of an uncontrolled wildfire by starting defensive fires.

[backinthesaddleagain]

I regret having read this thread. Friend has a CX650 Turbo honda (factory oem). Never uses it, just has it 'cause its different.

How about making your own fuel, perhaps from the moonshine you've been drinking.

Someone above mentioned the bottom end not being up to the task. RacerX mentioned Carillo rods. I hadn't heard that name in ages (back to my interest in cars). Now I find out that they make rods for MX bikes. Speaking of MX bikes, Honda is pushing the CRF450R engine so hard that in Reed's bike they switch engines between motos.

I smell troll, yes troll.

My 2 cents on this project:
fuel the bike with moonshine
go to hydaulic lifters and pushrods
remove excess drag by using a high quality bicycle chain for the final drive and for the camshaft (2 chains obviously)
use wd40 for oil (use a gravity fed can of wd40 (not the aerosol) and chill it prior to the run
hollow out the crankshaft, and drill holes in the con rods to lighten the mass

[Racer x]

You are 100 percent wrong about me.I have one of the fastest 250 ninjas on earth .I have spent less money than most. I have been runing a race team for four years on my one money.I am unemployed half the year to race and have very little money to work with ,But with 100 passes at Maxton in copetition I have 25 records and two top ten finishes in the points .Plus I am in forth place as we speek .I have collected note books worth of data from real world competition at the highest level .All on a shostring.

Thanks I want to be friends with anyone.

[Lowspeed Lowside]

Originally Posted by Lowspeed Lowside

[...]gutted 1927 Ford, which is for sale. The owner[...]

[...]is a 69-year-old tool-maker and auto-nut with 55+ years of experience, which - unbeknownst to me when I started this thread - includes turbocharging a Honda CB750 approximately 35 years ago, although all he remembers about the experience was being "scared sh*tless". Every cubic foot of his 3-bedroom house resembles Racer X's entire shop crammed into a Folger's coffee container, hence the commandeering of half my garage. He thinks eight weekends are more than sufficient for any motivated individual to do the job, provided that all the necessary materials and tools for the final assembly are on location. As the set time-frames aren't in dispute, I don't think any of this is pertinent, but if expert X says Y is the only form of reasoning that the trolls understand maybe that piece of information helps to keep this thread more focused on R&D.

That said...

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

fuel the bike with moonshine

A simple rule of thumb for this is to keep the first 50 mL (reflux still) you collect (per 20 L mash used), or 100-200 mL from a pot still, and use it as a substitute for race gas.
Original text here: http://homedistiller.org/methanol.htm

[Racer x]

I like that "Expert X" it has a ring to it.

So the plan is to blow up half the engine to prevent engine failure. OK Let's leave blown up engines oil changes and towing out of the 1000 dollar budget. Heck let's make it easy . Leave out the dyno time. Yes you can test on a back road.But I am a firm believer in keeping it on the track. I don't want anyone to get hurt

[backinthesaddleagain]

This is the most stupid thread ever, entertaining when bored, but getting tiresome. Build the bottom end like a diesel, put rotors in from a wankel engine, add a rotary valve from an old 2 stroke kawi, and change the cylinder configuration to resemble a Guzzi, and fabricate an ECU from an old cell phone.

[ducducgooseit]

My napkin says that the 80MHz PIC32MX795 is not fast enough to control the ignition of the "turbo to be".

[Racer x]

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

This is the most stupid thread ever, entertaining when bored, but getting tiresome. Build the bottom end like a diesel, put rotors in from a wankel engine, add a rotary valve from an old 2 stroke kawi, and change the cylinder configuration to resemble a Guzzi, and fabricate an ECU from an old cell phone.

Can you do that?

[Racer x]

This would be a good turbo to use for the project . Mitsubishi TD02
http://cgi.ebay.com/Turbocharger-Tur...#ht_1016wt_905

[TnNinjaGirl]

Originally Posted by Lowspeed Lowside

The turbo he uses for his stock 22hp engine is the Lombardini (aka Mitsubishi)
TD025-03C.

I have one of those sitting on a shelf in my office. They aren't too hard to come by.

[Lowspeed Lowside]

Originally Posted by Racer x

This would be a good turbo to use for the project . Mitsubishi TD02
http://cgi.ebay.com/Turbocharger-Tur...#ht_1016wt_905

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/44...173_02410.html sells them for $430/pair. That's two from China for the price of one from Japan, although the Japan one looks like it includes a couple of goodies.

All things considered, I think the TD02 is the one we'll end up using, but I also think it's waaaaay too soon to pull the trigger on a turbo.

The RHB31/VZ21 (you had already suggested this one) should have similar characteristics (frequently the choice for people turbocharging their scooters, etc., see below) and is $350.00 (link), but probably a good deal less if ordered from China.

The question is unanswered, whether these turbos might actually be too small. According to the compressor map in this thread http://www.scooterinvasion.net/forum...?p=21808#21808, it appears that we can expect 10 psi to be the maximum sustainable pressure, which means that might not need/want intercooling, which should be cheaper and require less R&D.

I'm glad that I'm not trying to get a turbo working on a 2T engine and don't have to think about CADing parts so I can have a shop in OH make them according to my design and send me the parts in the mail.

The approach we're taking has much more character (read: it will work and it will be ugly).

Originally Posted by TnNinjaGirl

I have one of those sitting on a shelf in my office. They aren't too hard to come by.

At what price would you be willing to sell it? In what condition is it?

[Racer x]

My only experence with a chinese turbo was watching one fail on a Buell. Glad they sell two.

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by Racer x

Can you do that?

Eric, I could probably do it in an uninterrupted (except for a 6" sandwich from subway) 8 hour day, for $1,900. However my father has all my tools right now as he is opening his pool, and the kids have extra bicycles in the garage.

[Racer x]

Could you use two cell phones to cut costs?

[Lowspeed Lowside]

Zenithink 10" Touchscreen Android 2.1 Tablet (ePad) $163.49 incl. S&H

Although, a tablet isn't really required (our PIC32 has sufficient capabilities), I nevertheless feel that it must be included for the setup to be usable. A device with 10" screen will not fit in the space where the gauges are located, but as delivery will take 3-5 weeks, I'll have lot of time to come up with a solution. The worst case scenario is that I'll save ~$60 by substituting a 7" tablet, as I was planning on getting a 10" tablet anyway, to replace an unused (bad battery) and unusable (Intel Atom) netbook.

Today's lagniappe:

Irony? It's like goldy and bronzey only it's made of iron.
- Baldrick

Originally Posted by Racer x

Can you do that?

People have succeeded in making all sorts of weird contraptions, such as bar-stools capable of going 90mph, but since backinthesaddleagain is too much of a coward to ever try, we'll never know whether he can or not.

Originally Posted by Racer x

Could you use two cell phones to cut costs?

He should consider using at least 1,000-5,000. After that, ordering stuff in bulk doesn't get much cheaper and the cost for financing and storage becomes prohibitive.

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

Eric, I could probably do it in an uninterrupted (except for a 6" sandwich from subway) 8 hour day, for $1,900. However my father has all my tools right now as he is opening his pool, and the kids have extra bicycles in the garage.

I'd like to know what trick you think of using to do it in that time-frame with those tools. The only thing I can think of is the following:

Unit cost of manufacturing, e.g. a Kawasaki 250r, is considerably less than $1900, so if your father happens to own a production facility for motorcycles with the stated specifications, then your garage is probably large enough to fit to all stages of the pre- and final assembly modified for a single worker. Assuming two 10-minute breaks, a half hour lunchbreak and 5-minute stages, would mean that if you memorize 86 (admittedly rather complex) work-instructions, I wouldn't think it's impossible for you to accomplish the task in 8 hours.

[Racer x]

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

This is the most stupid thread ever, entertaining when bored, but getting tiresome. Build the bottom end like a diesel, put rotors in from a wankel engine, add a rotary valve from an old 2 stroke kawi, and change the cylinder configuration to resemble a Guzzi, and fabricate an ECU from an old cell phone.

I don't know about the apex seals in the rotors. They had problems with the rotary diesel Guzzi No one could pronounce it after drinking beer and designing them on the napkins. A fight broke out . I would not do it. Stick with turbo charging.

[backinthesaddleagain]

The pronunciation went from gut c, to goo z, to guz z as the drinks flowed.

[Liber]

If you are going to properly troll, an activity which is largely based on deceiving/misleading an audience, you have to base your deception largely on fact. Manipulation of the facts to support an obvious falsehood is one of the easiest/most effective ways of trolling. When mere deception/manipulation doesn't work, the troll is forced to overwhelm the audience with a flood of data, applicable and inapplicable, in order to force the audience to waste time picking apart the useful from the useless.

In that vein, I'll help you out, since your understanding of costs seems rather amateur.

I hope you are taking opportunity costs into account. While you are comparing your costs to those of others, you are constantly saying how much cheaper it is for you to do it yourself. While this may be true in purely monetary terms, I doubt it is true in non-monetary terms.

I don't know what your background is or what degrees/certifications you hold, but as others have pointed out, you seem to lack hands-on experience and are more familiar with working from the drawing board.

The cost of learning a new diversified skillset in fields you are unfamiliar with are incredibly high in terms of time and present a reduction in efficiency due to your lack of specialization.

There is a whole slew of other costs you are not taking into account.

You must gain an incredible amount of utility from the mere idea of turbocharging a 250, trying to accomplish something that has cost so much to other people who possess more beneficial skills for this type of work. Have you even asked yourself what kind of activities you are foregoing? Have you asked yourself what kind of income you are foregoing? What else could you be working on right now that would earn you more money/utility for your time spent on this endeavor? That figures into the true cost. Manufacturers/Businesses figure this in, as do most reasonable people.

Eric obviously has a goal, and I'm sure accomplishing the goal of having the fastest ninja250 in the world comes with some kind of reward that he values.

As for me, I have to be sitting at this desk to earn my paycheck, and reading these threads is entertaining on my breaks so I'm actually gaining utility by responding, probably more than doing anything else with this time.

[Lowspeed Lowside]

Originally Posted by Liber

I don't know what your background is or what degrees/certifications you hold, but as others have pointed out, you seem to lack hands-on experience and are more familiar with working from the drawing board.

There is a very small minority here who has hands on experience with programming microcontrollers. Drilling holes into a flange, so that the holes match up and you can bolt them together is easy by comparison. If you have your brain in gear, you'll drill the holes first and then do the welding. I'm sure that some people here would call making every mistake "hands-on experience", just because they've learned not to do it anymore.

Also, someone can have years of experience with e.g. hands-on tuning of ignition timing software, but if the crystal used for the timer has a frequency of 32kHz, then at 12000rpm there are only about 30 different settings for the timing (60 with a hardware trick). This is equivalent to a 3% error, because sometimes the computer will initiate early, and sometimes late, depending on the clock skew. In addition there is variability in the spark itself, eventually we're going to be unlucky when the errors done't cancel, the engine will go boom.

Btw, see footnotes of first post.

Originally Posted by Liber

The cost of learning a new diversified skillset in fields you are unfamiliar with are incredibly high in terms of time and present a reduction in efficiency due to your lack of specialization.

Don't try to learn anything new because it's hard?

Originally Posted by Liber

You must gain an incredible amount of utility from the mere idea of turbocharging a 250, trying to accomplish something that has cost so much to other people who possess more beneficial skills for this type of work.

Not really, I simply like solving puzzles. Turbocharging a
250 has been done, so that's no challenge. So, let's see if we can do it for $1,000. This is much more fun than doing crossword-puzzles where you know that the solution will be published in tomorrow's paper.

Originally Posted by Liber

As for me, I have to be sitting at this desk to earn my paycheck, and reading these threads is entertaining on my brakes so I'm actually gaining utility by responding, probably more than doing anything else with this time.

For a sufficiently rational individual it's not probable but certain. Remember, trying to figure out what to do with your time also involves a cost, we don't need perfect, as good enough will do. There are millions of possible mates to start a family with, but most married couples are happy with what they got (although a good way to stay married is to never tell your spouse that).