DIY EFI KIT for our 250r

[spooph]

Greg, that sounds fantastic! I can't wait to get to this point in the project. I've finally given up on riding for long enough to do some work to the bike, so I should still be on track to do this over the winter....

Also, what kind of boots are those? That look great!

[greg737]

Also, what kind of boots are those?

I really should get some real motorcycle riding boots.

All my other motorcycle gear is relatively up to date and good quality, but those are acutally U.S. Air Force issued flight boots that are at least 10 years old (for better or worse my basement closet is full of old Air Force clothing and etc. from a 20 year flying career).

They feel good to ride in but I'm sure they wouldn't provide much protection in a crash/slide situation. No real ankle or instep protection, the leather is pretty soft and they have exposed laces that could catch on things. Every time I put them on I feel like I can't truly claim to be ATGATT.

[Indetrucks]

Originally Posted by ducducgooseit

Probably would be best to read the entire thread and then ask questions.

But that's just it. I don't have the time nor the interest.
It would be VERY convenient if the first post was edited with this info is all.

In fact, you could have posted the response in less words than what you wrote above. But meh... no biggy.
I wouldn't be interested in this mod anyway. It would make my bike illegal in all 250 classes. Just thought it would be neat to see what the cost to hp ration was.

Nice mod, from the 1.5 pages I read, it looks like it's working for ya

Carry on

[greg737]

Originally Posted by Indetrucks

But that's just it. I don't have the time nor the interest.
It would be VERY convenient if the first post was edited with this info is all.

In fact, you could have posted the response in less words than what you wrote above. But meh... no biggy.
I wouldn't be interested in this mod anyway. It would make my bike illegal in all 250 classes. Just thought it would be neat to see what the cost to hp ration was.

Nice mod, from the 1.5 pages I read, it looks like it's working for ya

Carry on

You're so much cooler than anybody here.

Sorry if you didn't mean to come across that way, but you definitely did.

(I've flown jet aircraft for a living since I was 23, but I'm willing to admit it when I've been out-cooled)

[Alex]

So cool.

[forbitel]

Hello Everyone, The DIY got updated, Checkout the 1st post.
Thanks,
Forbitel. 9-11-11

[bprayogo]

We are at Sportisi have also tried this kit, perhaps we're one of the first to purchase from Ecotrons. The reason why it took so long even for us to post a feedback and a dyno result is because the system at first is not really a PnP.The software itself is not user friendly , the positive side is Matt gives a very helpful and supportive customer support. So we are back and forth updating and flashing the ECM. Perhaps because of this effort with us now you guys can experience the Ecotrons with almost Plug n play capability

The other reason that we havent promote this product yet, even in Indonesia is because the POWER generated cant yet compared with the carburetor version. We have our racer bike which just won the Asian road Race Championship for the ninja 250 class , and it generated over 36hp . I promised Matt not to reveal the dyno figures, or the difference in HP between his kit and the carb bike , at least until he can figure out or replace the throttle body with a bigger one . But for information - it will drop our laptime by 3-4 seconds in the same track .

Yes its responsive, yes it accelerate more quickly , but the lack of top end power just doesn't work for us .
As a Dynojet Tuner we were actually ready to retune using a powercommander which is much more user friendly, but looking at the dyno figure,we decided to hold everything back.

This product maybe good for a standard setup - or a standard engine with upgraded exhaust, but for more power and racing application, I still cant recommend this . - And Matt from Ecotron is still a great guy to work with

Cheers
www.sportisimotorsport.com

Link to original page on YouTube.

[forbitel]

bprayogo, man, what a sweet looking bike you got right there!

I only noticed a power drop at the top end during the first couple ECU firmware, after some updates, I did't see any more power drop. Like you said, I was an early adopter too, and had to go through several firmware updates to make it work like i want it, thankfully Matt was always in top of the game providing me with updates really quick. Hopefully that will help new adopters to obtain the latest firmware with all those fixes already implemented . I mentioned that my bike was totally stock, not exhaust or intake mods, so maybe for a highly tuned bike like yours it will need some more tweaking.

Sorry if I state the obvious, but did you check if you are running lean at the top end? 36 HP for this engine sounds like you highly modified you intake and exhaust for lower flow restriction which usually leads to lean condition if you don't supply more fuel. If that is the case, and running in RICH mode is not enough, you might be suffering of inappropriate injector sizing.

The supplied injector size (80g/min = 10.58lb/hr) is good to up to 34HP (in theory at least)

http://www.gtsparkplugs.com/InjectorSizeCalc.html

So for 36HP or more you might need injectors with higher flow rate.

Of course this is just my humble , I'm not a Pro Tunner by any chance, just trying to help.

Let me know if you find out more about it,
Forbitel.

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by bprayogo

We are at Sportisi have also tried this kit, perhaps we're one of the first to purchase from Ecotrons. The reason why it took so long even for us to post a feedback and a dyno result is because the system at first is not really a PnP.The software itself is not user friendly , the positive side is Matt gives a very helpful and supportive customer support. So we are back and forth updating and flashing the ECM. Perhaps because of this effort with us now you guys can experience the Ecotrons with almost Plug n play capability

The other reason that we havent promote this product yet, even in Indonesia is because the POWER generated cant yet compared with the carburetor version. We have our racer bike which just won the Asian road Race Championship for the ninja 250 class , and it generated over 36hp . I promised Matt not to reveal the dyno figures, or the difference in HP between his kit and the carb bike , at least until he can figure out or replace the throttle body with a bigger one . But for information - it will drop our laptime by 3-4 seconds in the same track .

Yes its responsive, yes it accelerate more quickly , but the lack of top end power just doesn't work for us .
As a Dynojet Tuner we were actually ready to retune using a powercommander which is much more user friendly, but looking at the dyno figure,we decided to hold everything back.

This product maybe good for a standard setup - or a standard engine with upgraded exhaust, but for more power and racing application, I still cant recommend this . - And Matt from Ecotron is still a great guy to work with

Cheers
www.sportisimotorsport.com

Link to original page on YouTube.

Very honest feedback. Appreciate it.

[bprayogo]

Originally Posted by forbitel

bprayogo, man, what a sweet looking bike you got right there!

I only noticed a power drop at the top end during the first couple ECU firmware, after some updates, I did't see any more power drop. Like you said, I was an early adopter too, and had to go through several firmware updates to make it work like i want it, thankfully Matt was always in top of the game providing me with updates really quick. Hopefully that will help new adopters to obtain the latest firmware with all those fixes already implemented . I mentioned that my bike was totally stock, not exhaust or intake mods, so maybe for a highly tuned bike like yours it will need some more tweaking.

Sorry if I state the obvious, but did you check if you are running lean at the top end? 36 HP for this engine sounds like you highly modified you intake and exhaust for lower flow restriction which usually leads to lean condition if you don't supply more fuel. If that is the case, and running in RICH mode is not enough, you might be suffering of inappropriate injector sizing.

The supplied injector size (80g/min = 10.58lb/hr) is good to up to 34HP (in theory at least)

http://www.gtsparkplugs.com/InjectorSizeCalc.html

So for 36HP or more you might need injectors with higher flow rate.

Of course this is just my humble , I'm not a Pro Tunner by any chance, just trying to help.

Let me know if you find out more about it,
Forbitel.

INjectors is not the problem, Matt has the AFR graph I sent him . and its a good AFR, can be a bit richer on top. but that wont make the differenceof power between this kit and the carb. The problem is more likely to e the throttle body, need at least 30mm instead of 28mm . After that then we see if the injectors can cope with the engine need.
Our bike only uses open air filter, full system exhaust and some internal mod.
Lke I said the kit will be good for standard bike at least with simple mod.

and you guys with Old Gen NINJA you can USE THIS KIT TOO.

[greg737]

The problem is more likely to e the throttle body, need at least 30mm instead of 28mm .

The Kawasaki factory Fuel Injected EX-250 model uses 28mm bores in its throttlebody. It seems to me you should easily be able to make a good bit of horsepower above the stock Carbureted or Fuel Injected models by using 28mm throttlebody bores in combination with a high-flow air filter and a good quality aftermarket 2-into-1 exhaust.

A 28mm bore is a very good choice for a 125cc cylinder. Plenty of capacity.

Let's lood at the Kawasaki Ninja 650R in a comparison to prove this point because it's also a parallel twin. The Kawasaki Ninja 650R uses 38mm bores on 325cc cylinders. A 325cc cylinder is 2.6 times the size of the EX-250's 125cc cylinder.

Now, when you compare the Area of a 38mm bore to a 28mm bore you get an Area of 11.34cm squared for the 38mm bore and 6.15cm squared for the 28mm bore. The area of the 38mm bore is only 1.84 times the size of the 28mm bore. This shows that Kawasaki actually gave the Fuel Injected EX-250 a larger (relatively speaking) throttlebody bore than it put on the Ninja 650R.

Of course these two bikes (EX-250 and Ninja 650R) are in Kawasaki's "Sport" line. When you go up to their "Supersport" level the ratio of throttlebody size to cylinder size is absolutely crazy. As an example, the ZX-6R uses 38mm bores on its 150cc cylinders. Obviously this combination works, but it takes some real careful engineering to pull it off. The ZX-6R has a very technically advanced airbox and it has a set of ECU-controlled butterflies in its throttlebody. If it didn't have these features it wouldn't idle and it would stall when you gave it throttle from idle or low RPMs.

If you go up to a 30mm throttlebody bore (or larger) you'll probably find yourself dealing with some less than optimum off-idle throttle response characteristics.

If you look at the throttlebodies that Honda/Suzuki/Yamaha/Kawasaki are using on their supersport bikes you'll see that when you go "oversize" on the throttlebody bores you have to put in a set of ECU-controlled secondary butterflies (although some of the earlier FI bikes actually used vacuum-controlled slides just like you find on carbs).

Really big throttlebody bores (oversized for the cylinder) are great when the engine is at high RPMs, but they're a real problem at idle or coming up out of idle RPM or when you roll on power from low in the engine's RPM range.

[bprayogo]

have you actually compared the oem ex250 FI throttle body, with the one came with Ecotrons kit ???

Our bike make more power with the carburetor using the same bike setup compared to the EFI KIT, and the AFR is good .
Example:we run standard engine ,fs exhaust,open air filters,jetkit, BRT TIS, we make 30hp on wheel - Install the KIT then test, AFR is good and the power is below that.

I believe Matt is working to provide a bigger throttle body as we speak as per his email to me. He also do his own dyno testing based on our request , so he himself as the seller can really come up with a good product. As you know its not fair to sell a product without a thorough testing. And he wont be providing bigger TB if his test was different than ours

[greg737]

I can also tell you that the injectors Kawasaki uses in the Fuel Injected EX-250 are 20lb/hr (210cc/min).

The reason I know this is that I purchased a throttlebody from a wrecked 2008 European EX-250 and used in it my 2005 EX-250 fuel injection conversion project.

[greg737]

have you actually compared the oem ex250 FI throttle body, with the one came with Ecotrons kit ???

Well, as you can see from the pictures, the OEM EX-250 throttlebody is a quality piece of equipment.

I haven't put my 2005 Fuel Injection EX-250 on the dyno yet but I can tell you its a good bit faster than stock and the engine pulls hard right to the redline.

[bprayogo]

You should see and compare the OEM TB with Ecotrons one.

Because the FI Bike isnt available here, and we never tested it ,I cant give any reviews or infos regarding its performance. You should put it on dyno then make exhaust upgrades and open airfilters then remap with power commander. See how much power you got, do it on a dynojet dyno so we can compare the results.

But most of the time, Dyno figures here and in the US is different, ours is lower.Different temperature, humidity and air pressure.

If you have other OEM conversion kit, then let me know, I'll buy from you

[greg737]

Here's the bike....







I'm using a Bowling & Grippo Microsquirt ECU in a Fuel Injection system of my own creation:

....includes:
2008 European-Spec EX-250 throttle body and injectors
2008 Kawasaki Ninja 650 Throttle cables (pull and return)
Bowling & Grippo MicroSquirt EFI controller (ECU, fully user-programable)
Suzuki LT-R450 Quadracer fuel pump along with an LT-R450 fuel pressure regulator (42 PSI system pressure)
Area P 2-into-1 full exhaust system with "long quiet" stainless steel muffler
Innovate Motorsports LC-1 Wideband Oxygen Sensor controller
Bosch 5-wire wideband oxygen sensor
A standalone Air/Fuel ratio readout gauge mounted just below the instrument cluster
Fram Fuel Filters (one just past the petcock, and a high pressure cannister type)
General Motors Corporation Intake-Air and Coolant temperature sensors
Motorola MPX4250A Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor
Nissan Altima EGR solinoid (used for "Fast Idle" cold-start air circuit, replaces the "choke")
K&N R-0990 air Filter

and... miles and miles of new wiring.

I've got the Microsquirt mounted up in the back end of the bike's tail, just in front of the brake light housing. In the pictures you can see the Microsquirt's serial-port connector for my laptop computer sticking out from under the back end of the seat.

[diwhiteii]

Originally Posted by greg737

I can also tell you that the injectors Kawasaki uses in the Fuel Injected EX-250 are 20lb/hr (210cc/min).

The reason I know this is that I purchased a throttlebody from a wrecked 2008 European EX-250 and used in it my 2005 EX-250 fuel injection conversion project.

Hi Gregg and Everyone,

I got a professional flow rate test done on the original kawasaki fuel injectors. I went to R/C Engineering in Southern California. The correct flow rate is 200cc hope this helps you, seen that you and I are the only ones with the original kawi throttle bodies. Also I bought some high flow injectors from R/C Enginneering 240cc and customized brackets and some grinding down on the throttle bodies to make them fit. I will be starting a new thread soon, because I bought the Ecotrons EFI kit to, but havent got it dialed in correctly yet with all my modifications, jardine ss full exhaust, R/C high flow240cc Injectors, the new ecotrons ECU with igintion controls and the Kawasaki throttles bodies with 50mm velocity stacks, and on its way from Japan a NEW Mitsubishi Twin Scroll TURBO! I have been working with Matt from Ecotrons alot! But because my modications to my bike are different from the kit tunning has been hard, and I am not very skilled when it comes to advanced tuning. I want to take it to a dyno before I put the turbo on but it is expensive and I am already spending alot. I am on the fence about the dyno right now because I want to get it running great before the turbo to show people that it is worth the money. If anyone wants to throw in some bucks on the dyno in order for people to get better feed back I am down! I just dont want to pay for two more dyno tunings, when I have already paid for two, 600 dollars. By the way, my bike before the switch from carb to EFI was 34hp at the wheels with full exhaust, velocity stacks, BRT TIS, and Factory Pro Jet kit. Factory Pro does all my dyno tuning they are the best tuning in the area of San Francisco. If anyone can help with the volumetric effiiciency and TPS load Tuning for the kit that would be great. I have a AFR ALM meter for the correct air fuel reading, but I want to make sure I am changing the data in the right way. Any feedback would help.

Thanks,

David

[greg737]

I got a professional flow rate test done on the original kawasaki fuel injectors. I went to R/C Engineering in Southern California. The correct flow rate is 200cc hope this helps you, seen that you and I are the only ones with the original kawi throttle bodies.

It's good to hear that you've got your hands on an OEM throttlebody. It's a great way to start your project.

I'm pretty thrilled that my estimate was that close (210 vs 200cc/min) to the actual flow rate of these injectors (if the pro test was at 42psi, that is). I didn't have a professional test done, instead I did the "garage estimate" where you put the ECU into a test mode that continuously fires the injectors (into a container) while I timed the event then measured the resulting amount of gas in the container, followed by a little math which is always a dangerous proposition when I'm involved.

What was the PSI that your test was run at? It makes a difference. My FI system runs at 42 psi so that's also the psi that I ran my injector flow rate test at.

[diwhiteii]

Originally Posted by greg737

It's good to hear that you've got your hands on an OEM throttlebody. It's a great way to start your project.

I'm pretty thrilled that my estimate was that close (210 vs 200cc/min) to the actual flow rate of these injectors (if the pro test was at 42psi, that is). I didn't have a professional test done, instead I did the "garage estimate" where you put the ECU into a test mode that continuously fires the injectors (into a container) while I timed the event then measured the resulting amount of gas in the container, followed by a little math which is always a dangerous proposition when I'm involved.

What was the PSI that your test was run at? It makes a difference. My FI system runs at 42 psi so that's also the psi that I ran my injector flow rate test at.

Hi Greg,
The test was done at 43PSI.

[Monkey Wrench Cycles]

Originally Posted by greg737

Here's the bike....







I'm using a Bowling & Grippo Microsquirt ECU in a Fuel Injection system of my own creation:

....includes:
2008 European-Spec EX-250 throttle body and injectors
2008 Kawasaki Ninja 650 Throttle cables (pull and return)
Bowling & Grippo MicroSquirt EFI controller (ECU, fully user-programable)
Suzuki LT-R450 Quadracer fuel pump along with an LT-R450 fuel pressure regulator (42 PSI system pressure)
Area P 2-into-1 full exhaust system with "long quiet" stainless steel muffler
Innovate Motorsports LC-1 Wideband Oxygen Sensor controller
Bosch 5-wire wideband oxygen sensor
A standalone Air/Fuel ratio readout gauge mounted just below the instrument cluster
Fram Fuel Filters (one just past the petcock, and a high pressure cannister type)
General Motors Corporation Intake-Air and Coolant temperature sensors
Motorola MPX4250A Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor
Nissan Altima EGR solinoid (used for "Fast Idle" cold-start air circuit, replaces the "choke")
K&N R-0990 air Filter

and... miles and miles of new wiring.

I've got the Microsquirt mounted up in the back end of the bike's tail, just in front of the brake light housing. In the pictures you can see the Microsquirt's serial-port connector for my laptop computer sticking out from under the back end of the seat.

Nice setup. I'm going to do a microsquirt setup on my buell blast custom I'm turbocharging. I like this ecotron setup for the price and I'll probably do it on my 250 ninja as the whole setup costs about what the microsquirt ecu costs...

I noticed on the ecotron website they have an FI setup for GY6 scooters for $300 that I'd like to put on my wife's scooter.

[ecotrons]

Hello, guys,

This is Matt from Ecotrons. I asked Sportisi / bprayogo not to release his dyno data, because his engine was not tuned with EFI. A tuned Carb version bike will have more max-power than an un-tuned EFI version. that's not surpprising.

Attached is the dyno data from Sportisi. You can see the carb bike is running at 11.5 - 12.5 AFR; while the EFI bike is at 13.5-14.5, esp. at the max power band.
It's not our intention to hide anything, only it's not a thorough comparison.
We can make bigger throttle bodies, but then it may not work for most other guys who need more than just max power.

The kit so far can be a PNP kit to a standard bike or ones with small changes. For a racing purpose 250r, with a lot of upgrades, the intensive tuning is a must to get the most out of the EFI. And EFI tuning is different than carb tuning, the initial learning efforts could be a lot, depending on users' background. Even an exprienced tuner needs to get familiar with the software user interface first.

[baligila]

Came across this website and this very thread after combing through the net searching for a light on ecotrons for my smaller bike projects.
Been a longtime user of both piggyback EFI controller (e-manage), and standalone EFI controller (Autronic), so while I'm no expert, at least I know what difference they possess in their nature. Especially compared to carburetor system, by system, I mean all little tidbits that came along with it (separate ignition advance controllers, etc)

I was intrigued by the comment made by bprayogo, as it does not make the same power as his carb'd system. To start with, and be fair about it, most motorcycle enthusiasts and tuner in Indonesia, I believe is still stuck at the concept of: 'the bigger, the better', and bprayogo has shown (although he is considered an expert by local racing-bike tuning standards) the very thing that limits the achievement of most tuners in the country, pre-assumptions.

He said AFR was good, but after reading Matt's (Ecotron) post, I'm afraid I have to agree with Matt that the call for bigger throttle body is out of the question for most cases, and he simply haven't tuned the EFI controller appropriately.
The fact that he mentioned the use of Power Commander, an antiquated version of basic piggyback controller with a fully programable EFI control unit is confusing me. They don't belong in the same sentence.
Why on earth would one tune a fully programable EFI controller with basic piggyback?!
While I have not yet laid my hands on an Ecotron unit, and software, I would believe, the worst it can be is an early version of autocal, and that was an okay interface for a well informed EFI tuner.

This fact intrigued me that a true fair test should be done to the unit. I myself don't own a 250R, but was toying around with KLX250 EFI unit earlier this year, caused by a dissatisfied fellow that was accepting an offer from a local vendor in Bali that fitting an FMF kit designed for carbie KLX is a good idea on a fuelie KLX, so I have an idea what to expect from Kawi's smaller engines.
Besides, an inlaw was mentioning that his 250R was never the same again (read: laggy), after a 'Yoshi' pipe install. It amazed me that the shed that sold and fit it didn't re-tune the carb....
As for the KLX pipe-saga, after an O2 bung, tail-pipe re-size, and a few solders later, the bike was forcefully bought by another friend. I wonder why

So far, things that I like about Ecotron (only by reading):
- the fact that they are economical (hey, all that for 499? Are you kidding me?! Hehehehe)
- the fact that they provide two O2 sensors. Shows that they care about the perfectionists out there
- their simplicity
- the fact that now I know I can stop finding replacement carbs, vacuum diaphragm etc. Instead, I can seal the old carb, drill injector fitting, and use it as throttle body. Hmmm.... Sweet
- the fact that I can dial whatever 'jet' I want to apply (almost) anywhere in the rev-load map
- did I mention that Ecotron is quite cheap?
- that I can now turbocharge my puny little bikes, that in itself is hilariously fun and serves a recreational purpose, away from serious projects)

What I don't like however:
- is the fact that Ecotron decided to present the injector in gr/min. made my head explode with unnecessary computing duties, hehehe...

So Matt, where do I sign up for my prospective dealer test kit
Don't forget to include that VZ21 in the package. I might as well buy a 250R and see how much fun I get from it.

Note: I'm not a believer in corrected Horse Power number, I believe in good practicality, along with that eye popping HP. Hahahahahahaha....

Have a good one

[Jack Frost]

I am new and signed up to ask this question, on cars the fuel injector sits on top and fires down, on this setup it looks as the injector sits on the bottom and fires up.

is this correct and is there any benefit to this?

[baligila]

Originally Posted by Jack Frost

I am new and signed up to ask this question, on cars the fuel injector sits on top and fires down, on this setup it looks as the injector sits on the bottom and fires up.

is this correct and is there any benefit to this?

Regarding performance, no effect. I think the reason is mostly space available.

If it's installed before the velocity stack (high-rpm), or in the cyl head (economy), then there are significant effects (and extra parts, where then price will get astronomical, more so with the direct injection)


To Matt: can I use Denso injectors off of Mitsubishi cars without any mod? They are rated 240cc/min
Posted via Mobile Device

[forbitel]

Originally Posted by Jack Frost

I am new and signed up to ask this question, on cars the fuel injector sits on top and fires down, on this setup it looks as the injector sits on the bottom and fires up.

is this correct and is there any benefit to this?

Jack, When I discussed about this with Matt, ecotrons, he recommended to set the injectors up firing down as regularly done in other setups. However, this would require rotating the throttle body locating the accelerator cable on the other side, opposite side from our bike. I hear few recommendation about getting a longer cable, perhaps from a 650R so it was long enough to allow rotating the throttle body. I decided to leave them down firing up and try it and see if it was really needed to rotate, however it is been working great so I have seen not need to rotate it.

Regards,
Forbitel

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by baligila

To Matt: can I use Denso injectors off of Mitsubishi cars without any mod? They are rated 240cc/min
Posted via Mobile Device

Yes and No.
Yes, you can use most of the injectors made by different manufacturers, given the below conditions:
1) the injector is saturated type ( > 8 ohm resistense), not peak and hold type (requires different injector driver). By the way, for small engines, most injectors are saturated type. Because it is small and requires not as much fuel as trucks. Peak and hold are for those big flow rates, usually > 300cc/min.
2) You will have to make some mechanical mods, to fix the injectors on the throttles (replace the bungs we are using, and fab your own bungs). For this reason, it's a "No" to your question.
3) The injector size must be able to cover both high RPM and low RPM sides. 240cc/min is too big, and it's more than enough to cover the high RPM, but it will run tooo rich at idle (hitting the minimum pulse width of the injector).

Anyway, we have 128g (178cc/min) and 190g (264cc/min) injectors, same mechanical dimensions, and they can swap the original 80g injectors. Actually, without a label on the injector, you would not tell the difference.
We are using 2x128g injectors for Ninja 250r conversion across the board now, which will provide enough fuel at peak RPM.

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by baligila

Why on earth would one tune a fully programable EFI controller with basic piggyback?!

Using a piggyback to tune a fully programable EFI system is certainly a waste. The only reason is "I know how to tune with a Power Commander, I am gonna stick to it".

Originally Posted by baligila

So Matt, where do I sign up for my prospective dealer test kit

Send me an emaill to info@ecotrons.com, we start from there.

[baligila]

Originally Posted by ecotorns

Yes and No.
Yes, you can use most of the injectors made by different manufacturers, given the below conditions:
1) the injector is saturated type ( > 8 ohm resistense), not peak and hold type (requires different injector driver). By the way, for small engines, most injectors are saturated type. Because it is small and requires not as much fuel as trucks. Peak and hold are for those big flow rates, usually > 300cc/min.
2) You will have to make some mechanical mods, to fix the injectors on the throttles (replace the bungs we are using, and fab your own bungs). For this reason, it's a "No" to your question.
3) The injector size must be able to cover both high RPM and low RPM sides. 240cc/min is too big, and it's more than enough to cover the high RPM, but it will run tooo rich at idle (hitting the minimum pulse width of the injector).

Anyway, we have 128g (178cc/min) and 190g (264cc/min) injectors, same mechanical dimensions, and they can swap the original 80g injectors. Actually, without a label on the injector, you would not tell the difference.
We are using 2x128g injectors for Ninja 250r conversion across the board now, which will provide enough fuel at peak RPM.

Hahahahahahaa...
Good if we can get those sizes instead. Was thinking to convert 200cc - 350cc singles as well, and would love to have extra fuel ceiling for turbo apps on those.

Would your 2-stroke system will be more appropriate for what I was planning? (Turbo singles)

Anyway, back on topic of 250Rs, is it okay to merge the two intakes (making plenum) after the twin TB's? To keep the velocity (by using two stock size throttle) but not needing to mechanically balance the two TBs, in case we get lazy (which happen really often). What drawbacks would it made?

The other thing is, let's say, if we target 35HP with mild boost, but achieved at considerably lower rpm (say 9,000revs) and super flat torque curve, what should we need to alter from the base parts supplied in the kit? Is it at all possible doing that with stock internals and 95RON gas?

Thanks Matt
Posted via Mobile Device

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by baligila

Anyway, back on topic of 250Rs, is it okay to merge the two intakes (making plenum) after the twin TB's? To keep the velocity (by using two stock size throttle) but not needing to mechanically balance the two TBs, in case we get lazy (which happen really often). What drawbacks would it made?

Not sure what exactly you want to do here...

Originally Posted by baligila

The other thing is, let's say, if we target 35HP with mild boost, but achieved at considerably lower rpm (say 9,000revs) and super flat torque curve, what should we need to alter from the base parts supplied in the kit? Is it at all possible doing that with stock internals and 95RON gas?

The mechanical mods are the big challenges for turbo applications. There are many parts need to be packed in the limited room. Then the whole air charge model (VE table, and TPS based load table) need to be re-calibrated. We do have another customer (David White) is planning on this. You 2 can exchange the ideas. Ecotrons provide some baseline kits to customers, and it's up to you guys to make the further strides.
EFI works with turbo, by its nature. most likely, you can reach your goal: 35HP, flat torque curve (>8000rpm), without altering base parts.
You DO need to do a lot of tuning for this. Good news, we have the ALL-IN-ONE ECU just released (controlling both fuel and sparks, getting rid of the stock ignitor), you can fine-tune spark advance at high load (boost) to avoid knocks.

[Jack Frost]

Originally Posted by baligila

Anyway, back on topic of 250Rs, is it okay to merge the two intakes (making plenum) after the twin TB's? To keep the velocity (by using two stock size throttle) but not needing to mechanically balance the two TBs, in case we get lazy (which happen really often). What drawbacks would it made?

Originally Posted by ecotorns

Not sure what exactly you want to do here....

in doing so and building a plenum, there is a formula somewhere that factors in engine displacement and the specific tq/hp range you are wanting to stay in to equate the preferred plenum volume. remember that less total volume (short runners) = (in theory) less bottom end power, more top end power, more volume (long runners) = (in theory) more bottom end power, less top end power.

But i do see your point about balancing the TB's but I'd worry more about not having enough velocity going into the head and fuel pooling in the intake plenum instead of atomizing correctly therefore this could cause a lean/rich scenario where one cyl goes rich, one goes lean, each overcompensating for the other due to the shared injectors and plenum.

clear as mud? i think i confused myself....

[Monkey Wrench Cycles]

Originally Posted by baligila

Hahahahahahaa...
Good if we can get those sizes instead. Was thinking to convert 200cc - 350cc singles as well, and would love to have extra fuel ceiling for turbo apps on those.

Would your 2-stroke system will be more appropriate for what I was planning? (Turbo singles)

Anyway, back on topic of 250Rs, is it okay to merge the two intakes (making plenum) after the twin TB's? To keep the velocity (by using two stock size throttle) but not needing to mechanically balance the two TBs, in case we get lazy (which happen really often). What drawbacks would it made?

The other thing is, let's say, if we target 35HP with mild boost, but achieved at considerably lower rpm (say 9,000revs) and super flat torque curve, what should we need to alter from the base parts supplied in the kit? Is it at all possible doing that with stock internals and 95RON gas?

Thanks Matt
Posted via Mobile Device

I dont see the point in trying to merge the intake plenum. It would make it bulky, akward placement, and i see no benefits from it. If you want to run both intakes together just use one carb like a triumph or bsa used to.

I wouldnt get to happy with turbocharging these 250's. It can be done but they simply cant handle high boost. Ill link a build thread of a guy who did it and he was shooting for 100HP. He blew the engine up several times from weak parts and after spending $7,000 on a custom falicon crank, custom rods, forged pistons, etc... it blew up on the dyno after hitting 70Hp, and was unrepairable. That $7k doesnt include the turbo, cost of bike, etc... Im not discouraging you, just saying that the bike has its limits and if your shooting for 50-60HP i would think thats a reasonable expectation.


http://www.customfighters.com/forums...ad.php?t=19496

[forbitel]

As I mentioned in the first post, I ended-up re-installing the de-acceleration cable in the throttle body. the reason is that I noticed that in some situations the throttle will not fully close leaving the bike idling a little higher. This happens when I closed the throttle from a mid to low open position. This is the nature of springs, the farther you pull them, the more force they will have to pull back and fully close the throttle. However, from a slightly opened throttle, the spring is not elongated enough to have sufficient force to fully close the throttle. An example is in a stop and go traffic, where you don't open the throttle a lot and you constantly need to close it. I believe this is a issue with all throttle bodies not only the one in this kit, and that is why OEM manufacturers decide to install a de-accel cable in first place, to help closing the throttle completely.

Anyhow, I made a small plate from a aluminum flat bar that I got from my local homedepot. I drill couple holes on the the plate to allow holding the de-accel cable in the throttle. Please look at the attached images.



After the mod, the throttle is fully closing in all situations.
Let me know if you have any questions.

Regards,
Forbitel.

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by forbitel

After the mod, the throttle is fully closing in all situations. .

Forbitel, good job!
As a first-timer, you have done better than many experienced ones.
We will include this decel-cable mod into the kit as standard. Thanks,
Matt

[forbitel]

Matt, Not a problem! I'm glad to help.

[baligila]

Originally Posted by Monkey Wrench Cycles

I dont see the point in trying to merge the intake plenum. It would make it bulky, akward placement, and i see no benefits from it. If you want to run both intakes together just use one carb like a triumph or bsa used to.

I wouldnt get to happy with turbocharging these 250's. It can be done but they simply cant handle high boost. Ill link a build thread of a guy who did it and he was shooting for 100HP. He blew the engine up several times from weak parts and after spending $7,000 on a custom falicon crank, custom rods, forged pistons, etc... it blew up on the dyno after hitting 70Hp, and was unrepairable. That $7k doesnt include the turbo, cost of bike, etc... Im not discouraging you, just saying that the bike has its limits and if your shooting for 50-60HP i would think thats a reasonable expectation.


http://www.customfighters.com/forums...ad.php?t=19496

My aim is 'only' 35 with loads of usable torque.

No point in trying to achieve 1000HP from a 2500cc stock car engine as well, right?!
Posted via Mobile Device

[baligila]

Originally Posted by Monkey Wrench Cycles

I dont see the point in trying to merge the intake plenum. It would make it bulky, akward placement, and i see no benefits from it. If you want to run both intakes together just use one carb like a triumph or bsa used to.

I wouldnt get to happy with turbocharging these 250's. It can be done but they simply cant handle high boost. Ill link a build thread of a guy who did it and he was shooting for 100HP. He blew the engine up several times from weak parts and after spending $7,000 on a custom falicon crank, custom rods, forged pistons, etc... it blew up on the dyno after hitting 70Hp, and was unrepairable. That $7k doesnt include the turbo, cost of bike, etc... Im not discouraging you, just saying that the bike has its limits and if your shooting for 50-60HP i would think thats a reasonable expectation.


http://www.customfighters.com/forums...ad.php?t=19496

My aim is 'only' 35 with loads of usable torque.

No point in trying to achieve 1000HP from a 2500cc stock car engine as well, right?!
Posted via Mobile Device

[Monkey Wrench Cycles]

Originally Posted by baligila

My aim is 'only' 35 with loads of usable torque.

No point in trying to achieve 1000HP from a 2500cc stock car engine as well, right?!
Posted via Mobile Device

I hope you didnt take it the wrong way. Just passing on some info from someone whos been there done that. Not trying to discourage you at all as i like to think outside the box and was actually considering turbocharging my lil 250 until i read the thread and talked to the guy who blew his up and found out that there is to many weak points in this engine to reliably achieve any large HP gains. He had enough money into the engine work, high perf. parts, and turbo alone that he could have bought a used busa...

[baligila]

Originally Posted by Monkey Wrench Cycles

I hope you didnt take it the wrong way. Just passing on some info from someone whos been there done that. Not trying to discourage you at all as i like to think outside the box and was actually considering turbocharging my lil 250 until i read the thread and talked to the guy who blew his up and found out that there is to many weak points in this engine to reliably achieve any large HP gains. He had enough money into the engine work, high perf. parts, and turbo alone that he could have bought a used busa...

No man, I'm the kind of person who have avery relaxed view upon any form of discussion and take difference in opinions lightly. Nothing too serious. Maybe I didn't get translated correctly through the 'interweb,

As for the 1000HP thing, I was referring to F1 engine's near 1000HP power from 2400cc N/A configuration, which is not achieved from a daily driver's engine parts. So, there's no way in making almost 4 times the power out of a displacement without being extremely expensive.

Not trying to be offensive to anyone, but if someone decided to do something and then complained about it, that person could be categorized as severely un-informed (some say : stupid)

7000 bucks is nothing compared to what he wanted to achieve. Look how much the F1 team spent

Therefore, being sensible. I'm only aiming for moderate numbers. Those that the original parts can sustain day-in day-out. nothing extreme (maybe because I'm getting old, hahahahahaha)
Posted via Mobile Device

[k12.usmc]

So after a month, I have finally got her up and running, I think (just need to verify consistency)! Need to wait for the 2008 Ninja 650r throttle cable set so I can finally ride her. I have the New Ecotrons kit with OEM throttle body. I will post a diy and a video later, once I get the o2 sensors installed and I am 100% sure I can truly show the beauty of the kit. For those considering the kit, do your research first. The kit is simple if you do the necessary preparation. The people before you have found what works and what doesn't. I would like to thank forbitel, greg737, diwhiteii, and Matt from Ecotrons for helping me out along the way.

[forbitel]

update!

I Received the second version of the ECU from Ecotrons and I installed it yesterday together with the new bigger injectors.

The new ECU: Externally, it looks exactly the same to the first version, but the magic is inside. This new computer also has the circuitry to drive the ignition coils so the ECU will completely replace the OEM igniter. This means that now the kit will allow you to have full control over the fuel delivery and the spark timing. According to Ecotrons, they have fine tuned the ignition advances to squeeze a little more power from the engine. The new ECU also has a newer self-learning software which learns better on high end additionally to a better idle control.

The new Injectors: Initially, the kit came with 80g/min injectors, and Ecotrons sent me a replacement for 128g/min, Matt said all the new kits will come with the new injectors. I'm hoping to see a better response at the top end, but I have not yet tested to see if the top speed got higher.

I will keep testing the kit as weather permits, and will let you all know.

k12.usmc I'm glad the guide helped, and congrats on converting your 250r to Fuel Injection

Regards,