No Start - but have fuel, air, compression & spark

[Bowtie2Bimmer]

I am helping reassemble a 2005 Ninja 250 that hasn't run in 2 years for a friend of mine. Long story made short: One morning he came out and the bike wouldn't start. He pulled the tank off to look at something, walked away, and someone stole his gas tank. It took him 2 years to get around to replacing it.

So, now that I've freed the frozen brakes, inflated the tires, de-rusted and lubed the chain, rebuilt the carbs, de-rusted the tank, installed a new petcock, replaced battery, so on and so forth... it is all back together

I checked the spark by pulling a plug and testing it against the valve cover bolt. We have spark.

After attempting to start, I pulled the plugs. Smells like fuel. So we must be getting fuel.

When the plug is out and I thumb the starter, air comes out of the cylinder. We have compression.

I assume I have air. I mean, its air...

I'm stumped. No idea why it won't start. I need ideas, please! I did do an ohm test on the pickup coil and got 115ohms, which is within the 100-150ohm range the manual specifies. Can the pickup coil be adjusted distance wise?? Maybe its too far out and the signal is not strong enough?

The manual says that to check the CDI box you must use a special Kawasaki tool, that I do not have. Any way around this?

Any other ideas? I appreciate the help in advance!

[RacinNinja]

Just because air comes out of the cylinder with the plug out does not indicate compression.....that just means the piston is moving. In order to have compression, you first must have a sealed chamber....

That said, your next should be to spray some starting fluid into the airbox and see if it will cough.

If it does, you aren't getting ENOUGH fuel. Carbs aren't clean.

If it doesn't, you are lacking compression or a hot enough spark.

You are using the choke, correct?

[Bowtie2Bimmer]

I am utilizing a choke.

As the owner tells me, it ran fine the night before, came out the next morning to no start. Reason would tell me that compression didn't fail overnight. However, I agree, may as well test it. I have a friend with a compression tester I can borrow.

To hit wit the starting fluid should I spray into the airbox? Should I remove the filter or leave it in place?

[Bowtie2Bimmer]

Can the CDI box be tested using a regular multimeter? Or do I need the fancy kawi tool that is no longer produced?

[RacinNinja]

I'd remove the filter. Start cranking and spray a bit in to see if it coughs. If it coughs or tries to run, it's a carb issue. After sitting this long I'll almost guarantee you it's a fuel/carb issue.

There's a guy here that remans them and does a GREAT job for a low cost. I'll see if I can find his info.

If you have spark, it's not the CDI box. Try the starting fluid....

[Bowtie2Bimmer]

Thank you

The carbs were professionally cleaned at a local dealer here I used to work for. But always a possibility

Just like to reiterate, that the bike was broken before it sat for two years. It would not start and he tried to diagnosw. While the tank was off someone stole it and then it sat for two years. Ran fine previously. So that makes me think something else may be at issue.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Bowtie2Bimmer

........ Any other ideas? I appreciate the help in advance!

After sitting idle for that long, any engine will give you troubles to be started.

You need the mentioned things, but in the correct amount.

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/General...on't_start

Sparks may jump outside, but not into a pressurized chamber.
Low-charge or worn battery is the most common cause of weak sparks.
Use a car battery for the first start up, don't ruin the little battery in the bike, which is only good for half a dozen on long cranking's.

The petcock must be feeling vacuum from the engine and the mesh filters must be free of obstructions before enough fuel flows into the bowls.
Good leak-free vacuum hoses are important.
There is a filter inside the tank and maybe another one inside the hose feeding the carburetors.

The float valves could be hardened and the bowls could be overflowing and fouling the spark plugs, besides contaminating the oil in the crankcase.

[Bowtie2Bimmer]

OK, unfortunately the compression tester i borrowed doesn't have an adapter small enough for the 250. I will have to hold off on this. I am eliminating options however. Coils are both good (checked primary and secondary winding resistance). I also checked resistance on pickup coil, that ws good as well.

On the subject of the CDI box, my manual shows an 8 prong version but my CDI box is a 10 prong. Is testing still the same?

[Ghostt]

If you remove the non-red wire and ground that terminal of the coil there will be a spark. When you un-ground it there will be another spark. That is all the ignitor is doing but it is doing with a transistor when it receives a signal from the pickup coils. In between the pickup coils and the transistor is a micro-controller that determines the advance of the spark depending on rpm.

If indeed you need another CDI, make sure it is the same part #, which is the number on the CDI sticker

[jkv45]

Do you have fuel in the floatbowls?

Is the gas absolutely fresh?

I'm guessing it's carb related, even though a dealer worked on it.

I would give it a shot of Starter Fluid, like Racin suggested.

[Bowtie2Bimmer]

bowls have gas. Fuel is from yesterday. Carbs are clean.

Just so everyone knows, i worked as a tech and a service advisor at a dealership for several years. This isn't my first go at diagnosis.

Starting fluid did nothing

I honestly think its the cdi box. Can anyone provide me info on my questions above? 8 prong vs 10 prong cdi testing? I tried checking some resistances between the prongs on the CDI box and i get nothing.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Bowtie2Bimmer

bowls have gas. Fuel is from yesterday. Carbs are clean.

Just so everyone knows, i worked as a tech and a service advisor at a dealership for several years. This isn't my first go at diagnosis.

Starting fluid did nothing

I honestly think its the cdi box. Can anyone provide me info on my questions above? 8 prong vs 10 prong cdi testing? I tried checking some resistances between the prongs on the CDI box and i get nothing.

I thought it had spark.

If it did have spark I would expect the CDI to be working.

As far as the carbs go, unless they were cleaned and adjusted by someone that knew exactly what they were doing they may not be right.

[Bowtie2Bimmer]

Originally Posted by jkv45

I thought it had spark.

If it did have spark I would expect the CDI to be working.

As far as the carbs go, unless they were cleaned and adjusted by someone that knew exactly what they were doing they may not be right.

I do have spark. But, per my ohm meter, it doesn't seem to be within spec. So i may not have quality spark

Can anyone give me the testing parameters for a 10 prong cdi?

[Ghostt]

Quality spark could be due to the HT leads need to be refreshed, and/or the spark plug caps need to be cleaned.

The CDI on the Ninjette is basic, it's a switch, and has a simple curve, if your getting weak spark it's most likely somewhere else in the system.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Your spark issue is almost certainly at or after the coils. Seems like a great time to preform a COP conversion. (Just a farkle for nerds)

[RacinNinja]

I don't think it's a spark issue. Unless the spark is orange, instead of blue. I'd throw a new set of spark plugs at it anyway. Weak battery maybe??

I think it's a compression or valve issue. It didn't pop on starting fluid, despite having a verified spark. This leads me to believe it either didn't make it into the chamber (valve issue) or there wasn't enough compression to have it fire.

[Bowtie2Bimmer]

I got the CDI specs from a local shop. I realize it doesn't make sense to be the CDI, but I want to just check to eliminate all of my options.

Could timing be off?

What if the timing chain broke?

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Bowtie2Bimmer

Just so everyone knows, i worked as a tech and a service advisor at a dealership for several years. This isn't my first go at diagnosis.

Ah cool, then a leak down test shows?

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by Bowtie2Bimmer

I got the CDI specs from a local shop. I realize it doesn't make sense to be the CDI, but I want to just check to eliminate all of my options.

Could timing be off?

What if the timing chain broke?

If the timing chain broke, you'd likely have no compression on one cylinder or maybe two.

I think it's time for a compression test.

Or a voltage test with the bike cranking at the battery and the coils. Anything less than 10 volts while cranking is a bum battery.

[Bowtie2Bimmer]

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

If the timing chain broke, you'd likely have no compression on one cylinder or maybe two.

I think it's time for a compression test.

Or a voltage test with the bike cranking at the battery and the coils. Anything less than 10 volts while cranking is a bum battery.

Battery is brand new and I have tested it. to be good.

The compression tester I borrowed doesn't have a 10mm plug adapter. I will either need to buy an adapter or a whole new compression tester

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by Bowtie2Bimmer

Battery is brand new and I have tested it. to be good.

The compression tester I borrowed doesn't have a 10mm plug adapter. I will either need to buy an adapter or a whole new compression tester

The purpose of checking while cranking is also to verify that the electrical system on the machine is not faulty and shorting somewhere under load.

Check the cranking voltage at the battery and also the cranking voltage at the input of the coils.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Originally Posted by Bowtie2Bimmer

Battery is brand new and I have tested it. to be good.

The compression tester I borrowed doesn't have a 10mm plug adapter. I will either need to buy an adapter or a whole new compression tester

You should be able to remove the valve cover to check if the timing chain broke, and you could easy set the bike to TDC and check to see if the timing chain jumped.

A (Admitted Ghetto) trick I used before is I took an old spark plug and broke the end off, then welded it to a metal tube and used that as a makeshift adapter.

[Bowtie2Bimmer]

Ok I have some direction for today. Thanks everyone. Again its a friends bike, not mine. I am not familiar with this model specifically, much like you all are. He is leaning on me because he doesn't want to pay the dealer (not that I can blame him)

Unfortunately my personal tool collection is lacking some key instruments, like compression or leak down testers. I will report on my findings later

[Bowtie2Bimmer]

Well, after much fiddling with it today... it's ALIVE!

In all honesty i'm not sure what changed. I checks the valves and cam chain. Then I checked some connections. Then I started to check the electrics while starting, I got a sputter. So then I hooked up my home made auxiliary tank, put the choke on and thumbed the start... Boom she fired right up.

It's reassembled. I'I've put about 15 miles on her. Seems to be good. No leaks. It's runs. It idles. It's charging.

Thanks everyone for the help.

[Ghostt]

[CaliGrrl]

That sounds hopeful! Maybe just needed to know you really do care...

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Could be a problem with the petcock or the gas tank vents.