250R Friction Zone Problem when not using throttle

ctruzzi · July 2nd, 2011, 07:01 PM

Hi,
I have been having a problem with my Kawasaki Ninja 250r with 52 miles on it (been in garage for past 9 months because of the cold: live in Seattle). The problem I am having is after I heat up the bike and have the RPM's resting around 1500 when I try and have the bike move just while in the friction zone it dies. I had originally thought it could be a problem of not heated up enough (however I know that isn't it) and then my second thought was that I wasn't in-tune with where the friction zone is, however I am letting out the clutch very softly it will drop down to about 700RPMs, when I get the clutch to the throttle zone the engine changes sounds (which was what I was use to while taking the class) however the bike doesn't move at all. At this point I can always rev the throttle and let out the clutch the rest of the way and move in first gear but I cannot move while in the Friction Zone. If anyone might know what might be the problem I would love to hear. I am always willing to answer any questions you may have.

kkim · July 2nd, 2011, 07:21 PM

you will always need to rev the bike a bit to get it to move from a dead stop with more than the idle rpm. what's makes you think you wouldn't?

bob706 · July 2nd, 2011, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctruzzi

(been in garage for past 9 months because of the cold: live in Seattle).

One of the worst things you can do to your bike is not ride it. Too cold?? Get heated gear

And give it some gas when your engaging the clutch.

Felipe the Ant · July 2nd, 2011, 07:58 PM

These bikes don't make as much torque at idle as the ones you learned on. I can roll mine forward when I'm parking with no throttle but that's about it, and I'm only like 140lbs wet and wearing boots

Boom King · July 2nd, 2011, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkim

you will always need to rev the bike a bit to get it to move from a dead stop with more than the idle rpm. what's makes you think you wouldn't?

I can ride the friction zone all day on my bike without any throttle and my warm idle is around 1300 rpm. I don't know...

ctruzzi · July 2nd, 2011, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boom King

I can ride the friction zone all day on my bike without any throttle and my warm idle is around 1300 rpm. I don't know...

yeah this is what I was use to when learning, and those bikes where also 250 but where some type of Honda early 90's bike. It might be that the torque isn't high enough which means it cannot carry my 160lb frame. Was hoping there was some common problem to this, however in reality the bike is actually idling around 1000 (as when I try to change it jumps to 2000-2500) which could also be to low? But the manual said 1000-1500. If anyone else has any suggestions on anything I could attempt I would love to try.
One side note: I did try it when the bikes idle rpms were at 2000 (I know that's high and I moved it down) and even then it wouldn't coast in the friction zone.
Thanks

Boom King · July 2nd, 2011, 08:47 PM

I don't weight much less than you do. About 150 -155 ish without gear. How far do you have to let the clutch lever out until you hit the friction zone? I'm not really sure what else I could suggest. Sorry and good luck.

Edit: Just to clarify, I only ride the clutch when I'm doing super slo mo maneuvers like in a parking lot. If you're trying to take off from a light, you definitely need to give it some throttle while you're in that friction zone as others have mentioned.

Alex · July 2nd, 2011, 08:47 PM

The bike's doing almost nothing in the 1000 - 2000 range. Before you engage it to start moving forward, have the revs at 3000, 4000 or even more. Especially if the engine isn't warmed up and has sat for awhile, as you might find the low-speed running to be quite rough.

Jiggles · July 2nd, 2011, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkim

you will always need to rev the bike a bit to get it to move from a dead stop with more than the idle rpm. what's makes you think you wouldn't?

When I put my bike away after riding it I use only the friction zone with no throttle to go up the driveway and into the garage and yes I start from a dead stop. The reason I go so slow is that I have to go between a boat and a car to get to my spot.

Then again, black bikes are more powerful =]

kkim · July 2nd, 2011, 10:39 PM

I was assuming (and maybe it was a bad assumption) that the OP was referring to riding the bike, not just moving it like a granny, which I'm sure black bikes excel at.

btw, I would be cautious of moving it the way you are. one stall of the motor and you might not be prepared for the sudden stoppage and drop the bike.

Jiggles · July 2nd, 2011, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkim

I was assuming (and maybe it was a bad assumption) that the OP was referring to riding the bike, not just moving it like a granny, which I'm sure black bikes excel at.

btw, I would be cautious of moving it the way you are. one stall of the motor and you might not be prepared for the sudden stoppage and drop the bike.

Yes I am VERY CAREFUL. I will not be dropping my new found love. I keep the RPM's over 1000 and still get enough pull to go uphill.

What I meant though is that you sort of dismissed his problem of not being able to get the bike to move just using the friction zone. Of course on the streets you would need to use throttle to get moving fast enough but the friction zone should still move the bike without any throttle.

Error 387: Granny Comeback Not Found

kkim · July 3rd, 2011, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Error 387: Granny Comeback Not Found

figures... people w/ black bikes wouldn't understand it anyway.

Domagoj · July 4th, 2011, 03:23 AM

My bike will stall if I try to move it uphill without throttle. It has been like that from the day one.

I have a black bike, but I must admit that green is the fastest...

LazinCajun · July 4th, 2011, 11:16 AM

Don't forget you can give it a good amount of throttle and still go as slow as you want with good clutch control.

ctruzzi · July 4th, 2011, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkim

I was assuming (and maybe it was a bad assumption) that the OP was referring to riding the bike, not just moving it like a granny, which I'm sure black bikes excel at.

btw, I would be cautious of moving it the way you are. one stall of the motor and you might not be prepared for the sudden stoppage and drop the bike.

I was mainly referring to being able to do this when parking or driving around in a mall parking lot with bastards not knowing how to drive faster then 3MPH. However going off from a traffic light like this I had also considered and not sure why that would be bad (if my bike could actually do it flawlessly.)
As towards letting out the FZ I had tested it by barely moving it and then holding it at a spot for a few seconds and then letting it out more and more, it just drops to 700RPM's then sputters off once the motor changes sounds which I had associated (when learning) as the FZ.
Well I shall screw with the bike some more and see if I can come to any solution.

Boom King · July 4th, 2011, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctruzzi

However going off from a traffic light like this I had also considered and not sure why that would be bad (if my bike could actually do it flawlessly.)

You shouldn't be doing this in traffic. You will stall and hold up traffic and risk having a cage slam into you. As others have said, taking off from a light or dead stop in traffic, you need to give this bike a little throttle as you ease into and ease out of the friction zone. As you start to ease out, gradually and smoothly give some more throttle. Practice this and eventually you will have butter smooth take offs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctruzzi

As towards letting out the FZ I had tested it by barely moving it and then holding it at a spot for a few seconds and then letting it out more and more, it just drops to 700RPM's then sputters off once the motor changes sounds which I had associated (when learning) as the FZ.

Try to hold your clutch in the friction zone just enough so that it moves the bike. If you let it out too much, you will stall if you aren't giving any throttle. You have to "feather" the clutch. The friction zone on these bikes can be tricky for a new rider especially if you learned on a different type of bike during your course.

Just be sure you out rule rider error before you chalk it up to mechanical error and start fiddling around with the bike. Best of luck.

wayanlam · July 4th, 2011, 07:27 PM

i hear that you can do this with the Hayabusa

rofl...

Jiggles · July 4th, 2011, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Domagoj

My bike will stall if I try to move it uphill without throttle. It has been like that from the day one.

I have a black bike, but I must admit that green is the fastest...

TRAITOR!!!

wayanlam · July 4th, 2011, 09:53 PM

ps, generally i take the bike up to around 4~5k rpm if im starting from a dead stop (while on the bike). when hitting the friction zone, the rpm will drop a little if you dont compensate with more throttle, but usually its enough to get you going if you are on flat ground.

if i want to get going quickly, i take the rpm up to around 7~8k rpm.

note that im doing this only when im actually riding/sitting on the bike. i never move the bike with the engine while not actually ON the bike... if you want to just move it from one spot in the garage/parking spot to another, either push it in Neutral (engine off) or get on the bike and use the engine. its not hard to slip with the clutch and/or the throttle and have the bike jump out or stall suddenly, and you can easily end up tipping it over to the other side... or worse, dropping the bike on top of you, ouch... xP

ctruzzi · July 6th, 2011, 10:53 AM

Thanks,
I will try and see if I can easily get use using the throttle right before going into the FZ. I will see about getting the RPM's to 4-5k prior to letting out the clutch to the FZ (or while doing it I guess once I get good at it). I had learned on a cruiser and the FZ was really really easy to get into and I was able to stay in it at pretty much a crawl. I will also see again if perhaps I though the FZ was at a different spot on the bike (though I don't think that was it... however most times when people think it's not them, it ends up being them). As well I was surprised how many with 250R's responded, this was quite helpful, I will update you on my endeavor as soon as I can. (Currently have the bike at a garage that doesn't cost $200 a month to park).

kkim · July 6th, 2011, 11:18 AM

Craig... you'll find each make of bike differs as the gearing, torque and tuning of the specific engine has a lot to do with how much power is available at idle. Our ninjettes are more biased towards high rpm HP and w/ only 250cc's, there not much power to spread around.

I have a trials bike (tuned for low speed riding w/ tons of torque) that I've started by accident while it was still in gear w/o pulling in the clutch. It started right up and promptly fell over.

July 2nd, 2011, 07:01 PM	#1
ctruzzi ninjette.org newbie Name: Craig Location: Seattle Join Date: Jul 2011 Motorcycle(s): Kawasaki Ninja 250r 09 Posts: 4	250R Friction Zone Problem when not using throttle Hi, I have been having a problem with my Kawasaki Ninja 250r with 52 miles on it (been in garage for past 9 months because of the cold: live in Seattle). The problem I am having is after I heat up the bike and have the RPM's resting around 1500 when I try and have the bike move just while in the friction zone it dies. I had originally thought it could be a problem of not heated up enough (however I know that isn't it) and then my second thought was that I wasn't in-tune with where the friction zone is, however I am letting out the clutch very softly it will drop down to about 700RPMs, when I get the clutch to the throttle zone the engine changes sounds (which was what I was use to while taking the class) however the bike doesn't move at all. At this point I can always rev the throttle and let out the clutch the rest of the way and move in first gear but I cannot move while in the Friction Zone. If anyone might know what might be the problem I would love to hear. I am always willing to answer any questions you may have.

July 2nd, 2011, 08:47 PM	#8
Alex ninjette.org dude Name: 1 guess :-) Location: SF Bay Area Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 7	The bike's doing almost nothing in the 1000 - 2000 range. Before you engage it to start moving forward, have the revs at 3000, 4000 or even more. Especially if the engine isn't warmed up and has sat for awhile, as you might find the low-speed running to be quite rough. __________________________________________________ Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered)

July 4th, 2011, 07:27 PM	#17
wayanlam ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Wayan Location: Bali - Indonesia Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2014 Z250 Posts: A lot.	i hear that you can do this with the Hayabusa rofl... __________________________________________________ Kawasaki Z250, Bored up to 300cc with 12.8 CR, 41hp at wheel 27nm torque, Two bros full exhaust with DB killer Dynojet Power Commander V, KnN Open filter, intake and exhaust ported, Puig Windshield

July 4th, 2011, 09:53 PM	#19
wayanlam ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Wayan Location: Bali - Indonesia Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2014 Z250 Posts: A lot.	ps, generally i take the bike up to around 4~5k rpm if im starting from a dead stop (while on the bike). when hitting the friction zone, the rpm will drop a little if you dont compensate with more throttle, but usually its enough to get you going if you are on flat ground. if i want to get going quickly, i take the rpm up to around 7~8k rpm. note that im doing this only when im actually riding/sitting on the bike. i never move the bike with the engine while not actually ON the bike... if you want to just move it from one spot in the garage/parking spot to another, either push it in Neutral (engine off) or get on the bike and use the engine. its not hard to slip with the clutch and/or the throttle and have the bike jump out or stall suddenly, and you can easily end up tipping it over to the other side... or worse, dropping the bike on top of you, ouch... xP __________________________________________________ Kawasaki Z250, Bored up to 300cc with 12.8 CR, 41hp at wheel 27nm torque, Two bros full exhaust with DB killer Dynojet Power Commander V, KnN Open filter, intake and exhaust ported, Puig Windshield

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July 2nd, 2011, 07:21 PM	#2
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	you will always need to rev the bike a bit to get it to move from a dead stop with more than the idle rpm. what's makes you think you wouldn't?

July 2nd, 2011, 07:58 PM	#4
Felipe the Ant ninjette.org sage Name: . Location: . Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250R SE GREEN! Posts: 562	These bikes don't make as much torque at idle as the ones you learned on. I can roll mine forward when I'm parking with no throttle but that's about it, and I'm only like 140lbs wet and wearing boots

July 2nd, 2011, 08:47 PM	#7
Boom King So, where's the reverse? Name: Anson Location: Ontario, Canada Join Date: Nov 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.	I don't weight much less than you do. About 150 -155 ish without gear. How far do you have to let the clutch lever out until you hit the friction zone? I'm not really sure what else I could suggest. Sorry and good luck. Edit: Just to clarify, I only ride the clutch when I'm doing super slo mo maneuvers like in a parking lot. If you're trying to take off from a light, you definitely need to give it some throttle while you're in that friction zone as others have mentioned.

July 2nd, 2011, 10:39 PM	#10
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	I was assuming (and maybe it was a bad assumption) that the OP was referring to riding the bike, not just moving it like a granny, which I'm sure black bikes excel at. btw, I would be cautious of moving it the way you are. one stall of the motor and you might not be prepared for the sudden stoppage and drop the bike.

July 4th, 2011, 03:23 AM	#13
Domagoj ninjette.org guru Name: Domagoj Location: Rijeka, Croatia Join Date: Aug 2010 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250r 2009 Posts: 396	My bike will stall if I try to move it uphill without throttle. It has been like that from the day one. I have a black bike, but I must admit that green is the fastest...

July 4th, 2011, 11:16 AM	#14
LazinCajun ninjette.org guru Name: Anon Location: Atlanta, GA Join Date: Aug 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Ninja 250 (Blue!) Posts: 488	Don't forget you can give it a good amount of throttle and still go as slow as you want with good clutch control.

July 6th, 2011, 10:53 AM	#20
ctruzzi ninjette.org newbie Name: Craig Location: Seattle Join Date: Jul 2011 Motorcycle(s): Kawasaki Ninja 250r 09 Posts: 4	Thanks, I will try and see if I can easily get use using the throttle right before going into the FZ. I will see about getting the RPM's to 4-5k prior to letting out the clutch to the FZ (or while doing it I guess once I get good at it). I had learned on a cruiser and the FZ was really really easy to get into and I was able to stay in it at pretty much a crawl. I will also see again if perhaps I though the FZ was at a different spot on the bike (though I don't think that was it... however most times when people think it's not them, it ends up being them). As well I was surprised how many with 250R's responded, this was quite helpful, I will update you on my endeavor as soon as I can. (Currently have the bike at a garage that doesn't cost $200 a month to park).

July 6th, 2011, 11:18 AM	#21
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	Craig... you'll find each make of bike differs as the gearing, torque and tuning of the specific engine has a lot to do with how much power is available at idle. Our ninjettes are more biased towards high rpm HP and w/ only 250cc's, there not much power to spread around. I have a trials bike (tuned for low speed riding w/ tons of torque) that I've started by accident while it was still in gear w/o pulling in the clutch. It started right up and promptly fell over.