Crank bearing or clutch?

[KikRox]

I have admitedly never had either of these items let go. Allow me to give some background on my issue.

When I am in high gears the bike seems to be shuttering and dragging quite a bit and not putting power to the ground or wanting to rev up quickly. In low gear's its still pretty grabby.

When I engine break (using the clutch to slow the motor without rev matching) i am getting a "werp!" type noise.... (which is new)

I have been rather hard on the bike drag racing it and often times attempting to shift for 7th lol. I recently inspected the oil strainer, no metal filings in the bottom end or mangled bits anywhere which is a good sign.

The part that confuses me is that if the clutch was faulty and slipping it should be letting the motor scream without actually putting power down hence maybe a suspect crank bearing or transmission issue. I had my valves revently done i wonder if they were done wrong and ones came loose. dunno wtf the sound is.. i will try to get a video of it later when the traffic calms down out front.

Anyways, are any of you familiar with this horrid noise?

[DannoXYZ]

Originally Posted by KikRox

IWhen I engine break (using the clutch to slow the motor without rev matching) i am getting a "werp!" type noise.... (which is new)

Are you really using the clutch as brakes? Is the lever all the way out or are you slipping the clutch?

Engine-braking is just letting off the throttle. No clutch action, no brake action.

[Ghostt]

I'm assuming you have the proper amount of free play in the clutch? What the mileage on the bike? What kind of oil are using?

The clutch on these bike is pretty bulletproof, as I'm sure the racing members can tell you as well.

I'm sure on the PreGen that the clutch springs are weak from the factory, and need to be upgraded IMHO, not too sure about NewGen, but I'm almost sure it's the same story.

I have a 250, and 500 both suffer from weak clutch springs, and I've upgraded them both to Barnett springs for the ZX600

[KikRox]

Yeah i was slipping the clutch to break before i learned how to match rpms properly. i use motomaster oil from canadian tire nothing special but its JASO MA spec. I guess without a proper peek inside i wont know but the sucky part is if i open it up without the parts im gonna have to wait. if i order the parts and its worse than expected i will have wasted a pile of money... sadly i think my option will be waiting. yeah clutch cable has lots of slack its sitting down nice, cable is working well. 40 000km on it. 23 000 miles.

[Ghostt]

Why are you slipping the clutch?. Just bip the throttle and me quick about the release of the clutch.

As I said the clutch is pretty bulletproof, you could inspect it, just remove the clutch cover, if you have it on the side stand, you won't need to drain the oil, and hopefully you'll be able to save gasket, you could order the gasket, or just use RVT sealant.

I have both the 250 47k and 500 50k miles, both use almost the same clutch and both are just fine, the only change I did was upgraded the clutch springs.

Clutch springs wear out, you could try ordering the springs, as they are cheap enough, swap them out, and try that, if anything it's not wasted money.

I'm not sure if the zx600 springs would work with a NewGen, but you could try email Barnett and see what they offer for an upgrade.

[KikRox]

im not doing it now, my first season i did it a bunch i didnt know any better man! lol no one told me hey dont be doing that. letting my buddy wheelie it a bunch is probably a bad plan too. anyways the big question is what goes "WERP" when i down shift and let the motor slow me down (yes matching rpm) i blip it rpm comes up i let the clutch out gentle it grabs i let go and juuust at the right speed i hear something grind but its like a rubbing hardly any accelleration out of the bike, i feel it shake, wont pass 120kph, valves or timing chain rattling away... this bike has so many gremlins i really just need another motor...

[Ghostt]

Is the drive chain properly adjusted? If not it can make strange noises for sure. Also what kind of shape is the chain in? Sprockets?. Do you lube it?. Clean it?

My 250 was making a, weird noise on the engine braking, and it turned out to be the chain, was out of adjustment, and it was old, so it wasn't holding the adjustment, it keep stretching. New chain and sprockets fixed it for me. If it's still the original chain, I'd say with 23k miles it's time for a new one for sure.

And wheelies are a big NO!! The front forks are weak, and you could bend them, and cause other issues, if your wants to do wheelies tell him to get his own bike.

[KikRox]

Originally Posted by Ghostt

Is the drive chain properly adjusted? If not it can make strange noises for sure. Also what kind of shape is the chain in? Sprockets?. Do you lube it?. Clean it?

My 250 was making a, weird noise on the engine braking, and it turned out to be the chain, was out of adjustment, and it was old, so it wasn't holding the adjustment, it keep stretching. New chain and sprockets fixed it for me. If it's still the original chain, I'd say with 23k miles it's time for a new one for sure.

And wheelies are a big NO!! The front forks are weak, and you could bend them, and cause other issues, if your wants to do wheelies tell him to get his own bike.

my current chain is a DID x ring chain maybe 6000km on it no wheelies on it well within wesr limit sprockets are at the same amount of km, i clean it, inspect it regularly but i did just do my tires perhaps that's it.

[Ghostt]

Never hurts to double check stuff, especially when it doesn't cost you anything but time.

[KikRox]

Probably for the best I dont, however is the gasket for the clutch cover re-usable rubber or is it a metal, fiber or paper gasket? did some testing put it up on the stand put it in first, pulled the lever and tried to spin the tire, lots of resistence. adjusted the cable a few different ways to test if there was a better spot, still lots of tension. im thinking perhaps my springs are below the service level limit. i'll get back after i pull it apart tomorrow. bad springs would burn out clutch plates and cause that god aweful droning noise.

[Ghostt]

Unfortunately it should be a paper gasket, but you might get luck, if not a tube of RVT would be handy

Below is my write-up on the subject,

Upgrading to performance clutch springs by Ghostt
IMHO, The OEM clutch springs are soft/weak, and there's only 4 of them unlike bigger bikes like the Zx600, due to this is a beginner's bike according to Kawasaki, to make it easier for beginners male and female. This leads to slippage in certain cases, especially at high RPMs
This is an easy fix, replace with aftermarket performance springs.
Choosing Clutch Springs
Barnett aftermarket clutch springs for a 1985-1989 ZX-600, Part # 501-50-05055. You can view them online at the Barnett catalog, here:http://www.barnettclutches.com/produ...&clutch_cc=600 They can be ordered through your local dealership, or at a number of online sources. Here is one such online catalog:http://www.exoticsportbike.com/6001.htm
Another option is the EBC CSK10 (see http://www.ebcbrakes.com/motorcycle_..._springs.shtml). This kit isn't quite as stiff as the Barnett, but is better than stock and usually a little cheaper. The kit does include six springs, while the ninja 250 only uses four.
I have done this to both my Ninja 250 & EX 500
Final verdict:
The clutch pull is a little bit more stiff, but nothing to worry about. The shifts have more of a crisp and positive feel, and eliminating slippage is always a good thing when it comes to the clutch.
It's my personal opinion that this is a must do item, as it saves the clutch.

[DannoXYZ]

Originally Posted by KikRox

im not doing it now, my first season i did it a bunch i didnt know any better man! lol no one told me hey dont be doing that. letting my buddy wheelie it a bunch is probably a bad plan too. anyways the big question is what goes "WERP" when i down shift and let the motor slow me down (yes matching rpm) i blip it rpm comes up i let the clutch out gentle it grabs i let go and juuust at the right speed i hear something grind but its like a rubbing hardly any accelleration out of the bike, i feel it shake, wont pass 120kph, valves or timing chain rattling away... this bike has so many gremlins i really just need another motor...

So when you hear the "WERP", the clutch lever is fully released?
How long after you fully release lever does it make the noise?
What if you don't let off throttle completely, but just halfway so you slow down less?
Does it WERP if you have throttle open enough to maintain same speed?

[KikRox]

tbh the carbs were all effed up for a while which made it very chuggy so i was up and down through gears alot. it happens mainly while driving around down where i gotta shift a lot.

yes clutch fully engaged basically if i come into a lower gear at a high rpm it makes a rubbing sound as it winds down. I come down say out of 4th, rev match, shift, clutch out and then let the bike slow me but its at this point where i hear it go "WERP!" like the engine is too grabby for the plates. Motor is running fine did a carb clean and bench sync today went for a rip, the motor has power tranny is all solid feeling but the clutch i think is on its way to heaven im almost sure of it now.

[Ghostt]

Try the clutch springs first, either way it's an upgrade that needs to be IMHO, regardless I did both of mine, and I'm pleased with the results, and for the low cost of springs, makes it that much better.

Below is pictures of the clutch of my 91 EX500 with 50k miles.

[DannoXYZ]

You have to unbolt the clutch to replace springs anyway. Might as well measure thickness of clutch plate stack while you're in there.

[Triple Jim]

I've never heard of weak clutch springs causing odd noises, just a slipping clutch, and I've had various slipping clutches of my own over the years.

Also, Nein said that the symptoms do not include the engine revving without accelerating the bike.

Certainly it's not a bad idea to remove the clutch cover and take a good look at things.

[A.J.]

Originally Posted by Ghostt

I'm assuming you have the proper amount of free play in the clutch? What the mileage on the bike? What kind of oil are using?

The clutch on these bike is pretty bulletproof, as I'm sure the racing members can tell you as well.

I'm sure on the PreGen that the clutch springs are weak from the factory, and need to be upgraded IMHO, not too sure about NewGen, but I'm almost sure it's the same story.

I have a 250, and 500 both suffer from weak clutch springs, and I've upgraded them both to Barnett springs for the ZX600

I agree 100% which is why I had to ask the 18yr old kid I sometimes ride with how the hell he "blew up" his clutch. He said "wheelies and driving fast".
Typical 18yr old response.

I remember back when I took my MSF course one of the first things our instructors told us is "ride that clutch!" He hammered it home that unlike a car/truck clutch these are wet and can pretty much handle most of what you can throw at them.

This makes me wonder though Ghostt, looking through my bikes service records from its previous owner she has had a clutch cable replaced 3x in her 11yrs. What does that mean? lol
A very cheap thing to have repaired but is this something that can be avoided? or is 3x in 11yrs OK?

[Triple Jim]

Cables often break at the hand lever when the lead cylinder isn't kept greased. The cylinder sticks and causes the cable to bend instead.

[A.J.]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

Cables often break at the hand lever when the lead cylinder isn't kept greased. The cylinder sticks and causes the cable to bend instead.

1 out of 1 users found this post helpful

I'll look and find this lead cylinder and grease it. Thanks Jim.

[Triple Jim]

It's the little thing that's molded around the end of the cable, that goes in the hole in the lever.

[DannoXYZ]

Also slot in adjuster can chew up cable. I always rotate slot so cable stays inside through entire travel of lever. Not sure that would cause sound, although if it hangs up cable and slows down cable-release, that may allow clutch to slip momentarily.

Yeah, I'm not sure if wet-clutch means it's bulletproof. Both my Interceptor and street Ninja needs clutch-replacement soon. Clutch on my Supra went 10-years & 245k-miles without needing replacement. And I learned to drive stick on that car too and took it off-roading!

[Ghostt]

Clutch cables, along with the other cables need to lubricated, this helps them not only work better, smoother, but last longer.

The choice of what to use is up to you, I personally use Bike Aid Dri-Slide, it makes the job a lot easier.

https://www.drislide.com/products/dr...icant-w-needle

Bike-Aid Bike Aid Dri-Slide 4oz. Lube with Needle Nozzle https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001F2Y25G..._xElIzb4RKAVGT

Another thought on the WERP noise, you might want to check the CCT, I had an issue with the Ninjette last year and it was making a weird noise on decel, engine braking, turned out to be the CCT, I just ordered a new one, replaced it, and noise was gone.

Just a thought....

[KikRox]

Pretty sure my cct has let go and let my cam chain to skip, now that wonderful grinding I hear is actually valves going GRRRKKKK because the timing is off. It explains the entire problem with my bike. Chugs, knocks, pings, runs hot, won't hit the upper rpm or produce power like it should. I am awaiting a call back for a price on a new used motor with roughly 20 000km on it.

I could reset the timing but the motor is beat and I don't want to put money or time into it.

[KikRox]

Lol so I've been driving it anyways, now its making a disgusting scuff noise when I rev it. It sounds like something in my valve train.. They called me back on that motor $550 cad, lol...